Units immobile during tactical battles

I have noticed the tactical battle is wacko in terms of unit turns. Some units will get three turns before another unit gets even its first turn! I am all for some level of randomness but this is crap. No unit should be allowed to get more than one turn behind full stop.

There is no randomness when units get to move in tatical battle. It is based off the initiative. Initiative shows when actions occur... If you have high initiative and they have low, this non-action should never occur. But the other way around, it is plausable with the current system...

Phildrae, vvhat are you fighting vvhen this happens? Do you see any effects on your immobile units?

Mystikmind, I've seen vvhat looks like enemies getting three turns. Usually vvhen it's the last enemy left. I'll attack, he'll counterattack, then it's his turn to attack, then he attacks again. VVolves can do it to me if I'm bulked up on armor and vveapons, so I'm pretty sure it's just initiative.

There aren't any active effects like Web, just my regular buffs that I keep on my units at all times. It happens at the start of battle, my Sov always has Impulsive and a high init, so he goes before anything else happens. It has happened only a couple times since I posted this earlier today, the last time I noticed that my units were attacking from the bottom right rather than the top left like normal. It also only happened to my most powerful stack, which has my Sov, 7 champs, and an Ashwake dragon. The other groups I fought with didn't have it happen. Of course, the other groups were never full, they only had maybe 2 to 4 champs and then would summon either a slag or an assassin demon. The most irritating thing is that my Sov was too far from the enemies to use double strike or gambler's strike with his bow.

Yea, i wondered why enemy gets less moves as i get more advanced?

Initiative definitely need to be fixed by reigning in those extreme turn outcomes!

There is nothing to fix. The more initiative you have, and the less initiative the enemy has, the more often you get to move than them(and vice versa). That's what initiative is supposed to do. If your unit has 2 times higher initiative than the enemy, then you will move 2 times for every one of enemy moves, this is intended.

As reasonable as that sounds, it is in my opinion a huge backward step in the struggle to make turn based combat more realistic.

The faster an unit is, the more often it gets to attack. Thats much more realistic than both units simply trading blow for blow no matter how fast or how big they are, IMHO. I mean, imagine a huge lumbering giant wielding a half-ton club fighting a dagger-wielding pixie that's quick as a flash. Would one blow of the club for each stab with the dagger make the fight realistic?

Your argument is a two edged sword because it is also stupid and unrealistic to expect the giant to stand there motionless waiting for the pixies to kill it - this is more often what you see in FE combat.

He's not waiting, he's just moving/attacking a lot slower than the pixies. In turn based combat, only one unit moves at a time, all the others are 'waiting'.

If the combat was happening in real-time then both combatants would move at the same time, but the pixie would stab with his dagger three times in three seconds, while the giant would bash his club once in the same three seconds(because the pixie is three times faster). It goes like this:

1st second: pixie stabs the giant. Giant is lifting his club above his head.

2nd second: pixie stabs the giant again. Giant now has the club over his head and starts to bring it down on the pixie.

3rd second: pixie stabs the giant 3rd time. Giant finally brings the club down and bashes the pixie(both happening roughly at the same time).

The giant did not just stand there motionless waiting for the pixie to kill it, he was just acting slower.

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But the game is turn-based, not real-time. You have to somehow translate the 'real' combat above into a turn-based system so that the result of that fight would be the same. So you make one second of real time(roughly) equal to one turn. Remember the combat needs to have the same result, we are changing the game system(from realtime to turnbased), not the fight outcome.

1st turn of turn based(=1st second of realtime) = pixie stabs the giant.

2nd turn of turn based(=2nd second of realtime) = pixie stabs the giant.

3rd turn of turn based(=3rd second of realtime) = pixie stabs the giant.

4th turn of turn based(= the same 3rd second of real time - both attacked at the 3 sec mark) = giant bashes the pixie.

Overall result is the same as in the real-time fight. Again, the giant is not 'standing there motionless', he is assumed to bring his club into attack position during turns 1 and 2, however in a turn-based system the actual figure of the giant does not visually change when it's not his turn, instead what he did in turns 1 and 2 is played as a seamless animation when he finally gets to act.

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Now, what would happen if we made the combatants trade blow for blow like you suggest we should?

1st turn of turn based= pixie stabs the giant.

2nd turn of turn based = giant bashes the pixie.

3rd turn of turn based = pixie stabs the giant.

4th turn of turn based = giant bashes the pixie.

You just made the pixie stab 2 times instead of 3, and the giant bash 2 times instead of 1. In other words, you reduced the pixie's damage output by 33%, and increased the giant's damage output by 100%. That most certainly is not the same fight outcome as the real-time fight we were trying to translate into turn-based rules.

(and yes, i have way too much free time on my hands )

That is not what i am suggesting at all, otherwise your argument is pretty solid for that example.

But you will have to admit that at other times in the game, the mechanism you defend does get 'stretched' way beyond what is even remotely plausible.... such as having dudes running around in melee combat for several turns while there are archers that never get a turn??? I don't care how fast the pixies are, it is not possible to be THAT slow drawing a bow, full stop.

Initiative needs fixing.

Actually, while speed archery is possible (shooting immediately on reaching full draw) accuracy is not very good unless the range is short.  To get ranged accuracy, you need to aim, and that takes time.

That said, it would be realistic if archers had a reduced initiative penalty for point blank targets or if there were a mechanic that let you trade initiative for accuracy (along with a ranged based accuracy penalty). But if handled wrong that could get into a messy or tedious UI.

indeed, fixing the problem is something else.

For the point that I'm making about combat turn 'craziness' in the game, archers make a very good example. In reality will you ever see a wolf run down an archer, kill him, then attack two other times meanwhile the rest of the archers stand there with their thumb up their ass???? This is the only turn based game ( i know of) where absurd crap keeps happening, it badly needs fixing.

Something i have always wanted to see in Stardock games is 'reaction fire/moves'. Popular in some older turn based games such as 'Rifles' and 'Prisoner of power' It seems to be a feature that has died out these days? If done well it could dramatically heat up the combat system in FE and go along way to alleviating 'turn craziness'.

Edit: counter attack in FE is an type of reaction fire/move

Back to topic: Just thought I'd throw in that this happens to me too...My units will randomly not be able to move on the tactical map. I can still right-click to attack an enemy, they will move there (to some random adjacent tile) and attack, then generally be able to move correctly afterward. Not a huge deal but it nulls Bashm, Twin Strike, etc the first turn or so of the battle.

In particular the swamp wildland (can't remember the exact name atm) tac battles have this problem consistantly for me.

Maybe we just don't understand each other. I am opposing your claim(as i understand it) that there is something inherently broken with initiative as a game system. I am not however saying that everything is perfect. If you believe that some units' initiative is too high and some units' initiative too low, then that's open for debate of course. It's just that i consider that an unit balance problem, not a problem with the underlying system as such.

^ This.

Yes maybe Archers are too slow in a general real world comparison but they do seem to function as intended (i.e. every Bow has a moderate-high Initiative penalty)

The Inititive system that they use in this game is bizarre.  I wish they would use something along the lines of D&D in Inititive system. Random roll plus initive bonus.  This would avoid the situation where a unit goes several times in a turn before another.  Now you could have spicial abilities/ and or Spells that could give units extera actions.

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Yea i am coming from a very basic position from spotting nonsense turn outcomes i see in the game to here... then further to this, i know initiative is the cause of the problem but exactly why or how to fix i don't know? Additionally what adds to the complexity is that combat speed and combat turns which were both separate attributes in WOM have been welded together in FE and expected to work properly! I don't like the chances that it ever can?

BTW I wasn't talking about the initiative of the units, I see really nothing wrong with that system. My units get to act, they just don't get to move first. Usually when it is a unit's turn, they will move first, then act- i.e. either cast a spell, attack, or pass. What's happening is then when it is their turn, they won't be able to move first to perform their attack. Usually the battlefield will be highlighted in green squares where they can move to before performing their action. When the bug crops up, none of the squares on the battlefield will be highlighted, and when I right-click to try and move them anyway, they will just stay where they are. It's exactly like after they perform their move, how you can then make an attack or cast, but it's skipping the movement phase of that unit's turn. What's really odd though is that if I right click on an enemy to perform an attack, the unit will move up and attack it. It doesn't allow me to use any special abilities, but I can reach the enemy. I've noticed it happens more in groups that are filled with champions or hirelings, but on the other hand I have never used a group that was filled with regular troops. I haven't noticed it as much in groups that are less full.

Can't say i have ever seen this happen? I have seen a similar thing occur but it is related to graphical tile misalignment; IE the tile your pointer is pointing at, is not the same tile the game thinks your pointing at. My unit cannot move exactly as you describe until i point at a different tile than the tile i actually want or attack the unit directly. I suppose if the tile misalignment was severe enough, it could cause the problem your having?

I've seen that happen as well, it goes away if you zoom in a little usually. This will actually prevent you from moving at all. If you click to any square that doesn't contain an enemy, your champ just sits there like you didn't tell him to do anything at all. My guys have 10-13 movement points, so they can run literally anywhere on the battlefield unless there is a solid line of enemies blocking them, but if I click anywhere besides an enemy nothing happens. It's just like if you move your guy to the wrong spot and he can't reach an enemy- it will show no movement options (since your movement phase is over) but he can still act. It's weird.

I have had both problems happen. The one you're referring to seems to be (at least for me) a problem with the hitboxes on some enemies (i.e. they crowd the tile so much the game thinks you're clicking the enemy rather than the tile behind him). I usually get around this by scrolling around the map so enough of the tile shows up behind them you can click it (assuming it is a problem you're having).

The problem Phidrae is having (if I understand them correctly) is the one I described earlier too. The movement grid does not show up. Click somewhere the unit SHOULD be able to move and he does not move. Click an enemy and they move to some adjacent tile and attack them. It is not game breaking per se but causes problems if you want to use a skill with a limited range.

It seems to be a problem with the tile they are on in the tactical map...I have left some units (usually casters/archers) on the spot they spawn on and they never get to move. When an enemy gets in range of a melee unit a click on the enemy will move them next to them then attack (as described above) and they will generally be able to move normally after that...

As I mentioned this seems to happen consistantly on the swamp wildlands tac maps.

No, that problem was in WOM already - especially the dragon in WOM, OMG that was bad!

What i was talking about are tiles *not interfered* by a unit - a clear tile, your pointer points at a clear tile but for some reason it is trying to select a different tile. If you look closely, sometimes you can see the blue selection box which usually highlights the same tile your pointing at, then sometimes it highlights a tile next to the tile your pointing at and if you don't realize then it can be very frustrating.

Hmm....haven't had that problem beyond what I've described...

Thought I'd bump this as the 'Units can't move' problem is still happening to me with v1.1.