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Austinvn
Austinvn
Join Date 03/2006
+25

[0.992] Diplomacy.. sigh

October 20, 2012 1:36:04 AM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

So I just started a new 0.992 game. This happened early on:

>Lady Irane comes to me suggesting that we start a trade route, but insists I pay her 130 gildar for the privilege. I have all of 10 (just bought wargs for all my heroes).

>Curious what will happen, I accept - yup, now I have -120 gildar and it's threatening to disband my units. Should have seen that one coming.

>Desperate for gildar, I open up trade with Irane. I don't have much. She is willing to offer 75 for me to declare war on Altar - I accept, sure why not, Altar is weak.

>Next turn Irane gives me that message - "Nothing personal, but since you're at war with our friends (Altar), we have to kill you. Bye now."

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Austinvn
ErikCurre
Join Date 07/2010
+11
Reply #1 October 20, 2012 5:43:23 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Hah, FE is an awesome game but diplomacy is not one of its strong points.  I would gladly pay money for an add-on pack after release that deepens the diplomacy aspect of the game and improves the AI in regards to its use

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Austinvn
Heavenfall
Join Date 07/2008
+441
Reply #2 October 20, 2012 5:48:09 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

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Austinvn
parrottmath
Join Date 03/2008
+206
Reply #3 October 20, 2012 10:57:19 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


That is called the bait and switch

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Austinvn
DsRaider
Join Date 11/2008
+70
Reply #4 October 20, 2012 10:59:52 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

It's not that the AI is bad, it's that it is too good...

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Austinvn
Kongdej
Join Date 01/2012
+58
Reply #5 October 20, 2012 11:08:13 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

>Next turn Irane gives me that message - "Nothing personal, but since you're at war with our friends (Altar), we have to kill you. Bye now."

This part is not my major concerin in the diplomacy part, but the AI should not ask for gildar I don't have! (I can't ask for gildar the AI doesn't have)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Austinvn
Napean
Join Date 03/2003
+1
Reply #6 October 20, 2012 12:29:15 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

This is an AI trick going back to GC (and even Civ5 uses it).  The AI offers you some diplo offer for the express reason of draining your coffers, then DoW against you, since you can't rush-build anymore.  I've learned to be wary of those offers.

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Austinvn
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
+141
Reply #7 October 20, 2012 12:32:28 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

This is a problem. Kingdom factions hate it when other kingdoms declare war on each other. Thus it should not be an option in diplomacy, unless the faction you are dealing with is already at war with them. In that case, the bonus to relations from being at war with the same faction needs to be greater than the penalties for declaring war on a fellow kingdom. 

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Austinvn
ben_sphynx
Join Date 02/2006
+8
Reply #8 October 20, 2012 1:04:03 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Another issue with this diplomacy is that the AI players can declare war on you while you have a non-aggression pact with them. This feels like a cheat. What is the point of the non-aggression pact if they do not honour it?

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Austinvn
Glazunov1
Join Date 08/2010
+26
Reply #9 October 20, 2012 2:15:55 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Kongdej,
reply 6

>Next turn Irane gives me that message - "Nothing personal, but since you're at war with our friends (Altar), we have to kill you. Bye now."

This part is not my major concerin in the diplomacy part, but the AI should not ask for gildar I don't have! (I can't ask for gildar the AI doesn't have)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

Still, the whole exchange really breaks the illusion of intelligence in your enemies.  Jokes about that to one side, the AI's interactions with you on that level should follow logically upon one another: if you take their money to attack a third party, they should not turn around to declare war on you for attacking that third party.  Nor should your relations suffer in any way for agreeing to the exchange.

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Austinvn
parrottmath
Join Date 03/2008
+206
Reply #10 October 20, 2012 3:10:22 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Unfortunately this does happen with political intrigue in the real world. Literally a bait and switch. Say I want to fight you, but I cannot do so myself. My allies don't want to join me in the fight, so I instigate bribe you to get into a fight against them. Obviously then they are at war with you and I get my war with you myself.

But I do not believe that the AI is making these types of calculations and is a bug. The only one to say that for sure is the person programming the AI.

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Austinvn
Austinvn
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #11 October 20, 2012 3:50:54 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
reply 8
This is a problem. Kingdom factions hate it when other kingdoms declare war on each other. Thus it should not be an option in diplomacy, unless the faction you are dealing with is already at war with them. In that case, the bonus to relations from being at war with the same faction needs to be greater than the penalties for declaring war on a fellow kingdom. 

This is definitely how it should work. Just checked my current game, and Magnar (at war with Tarth) will definitely pay me more to declare on her rather than, say, Karavox, but he still will pay me some to go to war with Karavox which tends to result in Magnar turning on me immediately after. It's a shame it always comes down to kingdoms vs. empires, it'd be interesting if the diplomacy was a little more dynamic - but if the empires are going to insist on sticking together, they at least shouldn't encourage me to declare on their friends so they can backstab me. I'd say it was clever and unexpected if it wasn't something the AI is willing to do all the time, it seems more accidental.

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Austinvn
Kongdej
Join Date 01/2012
+58
Reply #12 October 20, 2012 3:59:18 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Glazunov1,
reply 10
if you take their money to attack a third party, they should not turn around to declare war on you for attacking that third party. Nor should your relations suffer in any way for agreeing to the exchange.

I either agree, or on harder difficulties, the AI should have flavour text to support that it was the original intention to pay you to go to war with another faction, and then war you so you would have 2 wars on your head, the strategy is nice enough, although it should NOT be done on normal or lower difficulty since its one of the meaner backstab strategies.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Austinvn
GFireflyE
Join Date 05/2011
+63
Reply #13 October 20, 2012 4:18:05 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


Diplomacy still needs ALOT of work...

 

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