I am sorry Twilight_Storm, but you are totally wrong.
BTW, I did a similar test earlier.
Generaly, the TEC Loyalist suffer from being UP.
To make a long topic short, you could compare TEC factions something like this:
TEC Loyalist: 100 %
TEC Rebel: 150 %
TEC Loyalist 110 %
TEC Rebels: 100 %
and that pretty much sums up their entire misery.
But now to the Ankylon:
Please note that text in CAPS is not meant as an insult, but just a way of quick formatting!
Some of the information that I will explain below comes from the awesome Sins Data Spreadsheet done by Mallek3.
A few sad facts:
The Ankylon ALWAYS needs to be in an owned gravity well, not to win but to STAND A REMOTE CHANCE!
Even in an owned gravity well, the Ankylon looses 8 of 10 times against the Ragnarov on the same level.
The Ragnarov ranks up at easily 1.5 times the speed. That means in reality your Ankylon will be AT BEST Level 4 by the time the Ragnarov hits Level 6..... have fun watching the execution.
Group shield is NOTHING against the firepower that your enemies can and will trow at you. A single level 2 scattershot will pulverize your fleet, group shield level 2 or not. And that even assumes you have it active at the right moment...
Inspire and Impair DOES NOT affect Titans. That means in your above duel it didnt do ANYTHING. The Ragnarov level 6 ultimate DOES affect Titans.... and everything else.
The Anlylon is ONLY SLIGHTLY more DURABLE than the Ragnarov, however the Ragnarov has much more firepower.
TEC in general have the most durable ships and the best repair ships and abilities.... the Ragnarov is the SECOND most durable Titan.... with the best focused firepower...
The only weakness of the Ragnarov is the - somewhat - lower durability. There are however SEVERAL EASY ways to make that not an issue at all. A few Hoshikos or 2 Dunovs.... and the Ragnarov just refuses to die while it blows your entire fleet to pieces. The Ankylon on the other hand has no durability problems to start with, however there is VERY LITTLE you can do about its pathetic firepower. That is a BIG issue because it means that the Ankylon will rank up VERY SLOWLY. And the 20 % increase with Battlefield promotions is not enough to change that.
Scattershot does lower armor by a huge margin, nearly making the small durabilty advantage of the Ankylon totally nonexistant.
This also has the side effect, that a SMART player will simple IGNORE your Ankylon. Lets imagine a general situation here, one that happens in every game sooner or later.
Planet "My Castle":
owned by you
Titan + supporting fleet there
Invasion force (fleet + Titan) is attacking that world
You are: TEC REBELS:
Invasion fleet enters weapons range, all ships are opening fire.
Knowing about the lethal threat of the Ragnarov, the hostile fleet fires everything it has at the Ragnarov, while stray shoots and ability damage damages your ships.
Ragnarov shield are weakening, but two Dunovs bring them back to good strenght.
At the same time the Ragnarov keeps pounding the invaders Titan... soon depleting its shields
The first scattershot barrage puts the invaders fleet into a world of pain.... and lowers the armor value of ALL ships by a good margin.
The invader Titan. now shieldless and with reduced armor braces for impact as another massive rail gun slug hits it with the force of gods.
The Ragnarov is barely visible below all that firepower that is directed at it.... but it still alive.... something that cant be said about the weaker ships in the invaders fleet after a second scattershot barrage....
The invader Titan attempts to retreat.... but the Ragnarov has a very nice 20 % range advantage over all other ships. Still, it is in pursuit. When it passes the lines of the remaining enemy fleet the gaus guns are silent for a moment.... only to be replaced by a broadside of heavy auto cannon fire that rips into the already damaged enemy ships.
Before it can jump out, a final rail gun hit transforms the invaders titan into an expanding gas cloud. In the meantime, the enemy fleet is now behind the Ragnarov, the only weakspot of the beast.
Finally, battle damages takes it toll and the Ragnarov is destroyed shortly after it made an 180 degree turn... not before however it nailed 2 more of the invaders capital ships. The remaing invasion fleet commences bombing the planet.... a time consuming process due to few capital ships surviving.
Only shortly after the planet has fallen, the rebuilt Ragnarov enters the system, scaring the enemy away.
Your losses: Titan, fleet + planet:
Their losses: Titan, majority of fleet - unable to attack for quite a while
And that with the ALL offensive TEC Rebels... TEC Loyalist should do even better, should they?
Planet "My Castle":
owned by you
Titan + supporting fleet there
Invasion force (fleet + Titan) is attacking that world
You are: TEC LOYALIST:
Invasion fleet enters weapons range, all ships are opening fire.
Knowing that the Ankylon can withstand incredible amounts of punishment when in an owned gravity well, the enemy ships are focusing their entire attack on your capital ships and frigates.
After a short delay due to Ankylon disruption matrix and group shield effect the frigates are torn apart by the firepower of your enemy. Only more durable ships survive and are now totally outnumbered.
The enemy fleet still focuses all of its attacks on your fleet, ignoring your titan totally.
All your capships are dead, your fleet is in ruins and all you managed was to destroy 20 % of the hostile force by now.
The Ankylon looks still brand new though.
Enemy fleet commences planetary bombardement. Finally the Ankylon has managed to drop the shields of the enemy Titan..... after firing on it for the entire battle. Still, the hostile Titan keeps bombing your world.
Your world falls to the enemy, while your Ankylon did nothing more than destroy a few frigates here and there and to damage the enemy Titan.
With your world dead, Milita is no longer in effect, neither is the better version of furios defense.
The Ankylon has no choice but to retreat to friendly territory, or it will be destroyed. The retreat is no problem, the Ankylon is durable enough to withstand the entire enemy firepower for long enough.
The Ankylon jumps to the next friendly world, where a small fleet is waiting on it (You had far less time to rebuild than the TEC Rebel because they could bomb the planet with far more firepower).
The enemy jumps after the Ankylon.... crushing the pathetic defense fleet within seconds. Again, totally ignoring the Anylons angry but ineffective fire, they BOMB the second planet into oblivion. Again the Ankylon has to retreat.
And then the third planet....
and then the fourth planet....
and then you are dead....
A few starbases will only delay your enemy.... unless you receive major support from any allys, you cant hope to win this. An there is no way you can have one or even 2 powerful starbases at every of your planets, that just way to expensive.
The Ankylon suffers more severe from Antimatter draining or ability disabling abilities. An Ragnarov without antimatter is still a juggernaut of destruction, an Ankylon without Antimatter is just a flying brick.
The Ankylon is POOR at pursuing fleeing enemy ships. Because for maximized firepower, it needs to enter broadside mode. That takes time, and your enemy will probably have jumped by then. But even in broadside mode, its firepower and ability damage is often not enough to finish of leaving ships. So even less XP for your Titan.
Below Level 6, the Anylon has NOTHING to support an offensive.... which I am fine with. Totally fine actually. IF and that a big IF it does excel at defense.... which is doesnt, see green text.
The Ragnarov has excellent 360 degree coverage and by the layout of the weapons it can more often have 2 sides firing at the enemy. Under those circumstances it may have as much as 3 times the effective firepower of the Ankylon.
COMPARSION: ANKYLON VS RAGNAROV:
Minimum Starting Survivability Rating:
Maximum Starting Survivability Rating
Average Starting Survivability Rating
The Ankylon is arround 28 % more durable than the Ragnarov
Now lets compare the durabilty of all Titans:
Maximum Starting Survivability Rating:
However, is isnt much more durable than any other Titan. Notice also that while the Ragnarov is the lowest, the difference is only small. Probably so small that you wont kill it much faster than any other Titan.... and so you have to endure its tremendous firepower for quite some time.
Firepower in DPS:
Maximum available firepower (if totally surrounded by enemies): 333,82
Usually useful firepower: 150 = 44,94 %
Maximum available firepower (if totally surrounded by enemies): 286,37
Usually useful firepower: 99 = 34,57 %
27 % increased durability < 50 % more firepower where it counts.... Furios Defense just cant compensate for that.
That was level 1.... now to maxed out levels:
Maximum available firepower (if totally surrounded by enemies)
Usually useful firepower:
Ankylon: 186,13 = 34,57 % of the total firepower
Ragnarov: 322,85 = 44,94 % of the total firepower
The Ragnarov has 173,45 % more EFFECTIVE firepower.... and that naturally totally crushes the Ankylon. Only under heavy support from own gravity wells Furious Defense and Militia the Ankylon stands a chance. Should he leave an owned gravity well - for example to pursue a fleeing Ragnarov - it will die to it because it has now way to defeat it when outside of an owned well.
In my earlier test, I was shocked to note that the broadside damage of the Level 10 Anlyon is only slighty larger than the PASSIVE Regeneration of a Level 10 Ragnarov: As you no doubt have noticed in your test, the few times where the Anklyon defeats the Ragnarov it takes AGES. This is the reason.
Both the TEC Loyalist and the Ankylon need a buff.
The TEC Loyalist in a way that makes anything but Novalith rush (which is easily countered) a viable strategy against human enemies.
And the Ankylon:
Increase the firepower of the Lasers back to Beta values.
History lesson: The Ankylons ability Furios Defense was INCREDIBLE OP in the BETA. A level 1 Ankylon could take down about anything by sheer endurance alone and never ever died. So they - rightfully - nerfed it to the imho fine values it is now. They however drastically reduced the firepower of the broadsides lasers, too. That was probably to hard. The Ankylon was OP because of the OP Furios Defense, that made it impossible to kill. It was never OP because of its firepower. Even back in BETA, its EFFECTIVE firepower was the lowest of any Titan. Which I am fine with. Really. But it needs at least enough teeth to deal with an enemy Titan on the same level.
Right now, I doubt that a Eradica on the same level with "Protection of the Unity" will even loose shieldpoints to an Ankylon. And that is just bad.
Make Group shield more useful.... the ability itself has extreme OPness potential so of course we should be careful.
The MAIN WEAKNESS of group shield, is its PATHETIC effect on lower levels. So a good increase on the lower levels and a slight increase on the higher ones would probably do wonders.
Damage reduction : 18% -> 33% -> 54% -> 82%
Damage reduction : 35% -> 65% -> 85% ->100 % (100 % means in Sins math that only half the damage is done)
Make Inspire and Impair affect own, allied and hostile Titans. Serioulsy:
Ragnarovs Overcharge: Works against Titans
Coronatas Supression Aura: Works against Titans
Eradica Chastic Bursts: Works against Titans
Vorastra actually has MORE FRONTAL FIREPOWER than the Ragnarov... ouch
Kultorask: Ability affect hostile titans
If Inspire and Impair would affect Titans, it would not only give the Anklyon some badly needed teeth, but also help your fleet to survive much longer. Reducing the damage of the enemy fleet is very nice.... but pointless when the unaffected Ragnarov keeps sniping your caps and scattershooting your frigates into oblivion like nothing.
Generally one could make it more defensive oriented. Better flak would certainly be fitting and helpful. As would stronger shielding.
- And make it more manoeuvrable. It is one of the smallest Titans.... what about a second level of advanced manoeuvering + a general buff? .
I love the Ankylon, I love the design, the voiceover and how it dishes out broadsides. But for competive online play... TEC Loyalists and the Ankylon are just not good enough. Unlike the AI an human enemy wont do you the favour of flying right into your 2 Starbases + Anyklon combination of doom.
I really hope for some changes.
My answers are in red for easier reading:
Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1It is certainly true that the ankylon is harder to kill, but it doesn't exactly do much to destroy the enemy ships trying to kill it...in general, wiping the sources of damage is more effective than trying to merely reduce the incoming damage, and that is why the ankylon is far inferior to the ragnarov...
I think u need to play TL a bit more or maybe change your play style with them. Ive been doing very well with them and having come up against ragnarov a few times in fleet situations in UNFREINDLY gravity wells, the anky just seems to swing the favour time and time again.
I think you play against the AI to be honest. Or against people that have no idea of how to use the Ragnarov effective.
ive also played as TR with lvl 6 ragnarov and two lvl 6 dunovs complete with fleet and STILL had my ass handed to me by a player who knowss how to use TL. i think they are quite balanced, TL just need a different style of gameplay,
Replay please? Imho he either had another large advantage or you did something major wrong. Have you focus fired on the Ankylon? Thats a stupid idea of course. Against TL you kill EVERYTHING else first... and then deal with the - mostly harmless - Titan.
Try/consider the following;
-Anky is useless without a fleet, srsly dont even use it unless it has some sort of fleet with it
That is totally right. There is just one small little problem with that. If you dont have a Titan when they have one your fleet is at a considerable disadvantage. While the Ankylon does do a rather poor job in helping your fleet against an enemy Ragnarov fleet, it still better than not having it at all.
Far worse, if you delay your Titan, the enemies titan will no doubt have a rank advantage. The Ankylon ranks up very slowly.... delaying that even further and you might end up with a Level 3 Ankylon vs a Level 6 Ragnarov.... have fun watching the execution...
-Always keep fleet in close formation with anky at centre, to keep group shield working effectively
Thank you for that! That reminded me on another issue altogether:
The abilites of the Ankylon are split in such a way that you dont have good choices where to place it:
Furios Defense: Into the heart of the enemy fleet for maximized firepower
Disruption Matrix: Into the heart of the enemy fleet for maximized firepower
Group Shield: Into your fleet, protecting it.
The problem is that without group shield - that doesnt last too long and is only effective on level 3 minimum - being in the heart of the enemy fleet is a very bad idea. Abilities like Scattershot, Chastic Burst, Supression Aura + Unity Mass will pulverize your fleet within 30 seconds without and within 60 seconds with group shield. Then your capships die...
-Try to position anky (and fleet) so anky can fire 360 degrees at targets (its DPS is actually quite high in this circumstance)
Yes, but this is extremly difficult, easily countered and requires the Ankylon to be away from the fleet, see above.
-Try to fight crucial battles in friendly gravity wells (with militia armor and weps upgrades... 30% dmg buff ftw!)
If your enemy is foolish enough to do that... of course... but most people will just
1. Crush your supporting fleet (frigates)
2. Bomb the planet into oblivion
3. Kill your capitalships in the meantime
4. And once you lost the planet, your have no bonuses anymore, so you can only run.
-Dont bother with defensive/utility caps, just get offensive (anky takes care of defensive/utility roles) i start with marza (NOT akkan), then go either another marza or sova third cap is either 2nd marza or maybe a Kol (still experimenting with Kol)
Starting sounds like a bad idea under most circumstances. Especially as the Akkan is quite capable of clearing milita with only minimal support, allowing your fleet a second route for more colonisation.
Rushing Marzas = No Ankylon = no staying power
Rushing just the Ankylon = Anyklon without fleet... you said it yourself.
Probably this is a strategy for the late game.
-Anky group shield ability is highest priority, followed by furious defense (and of course AM to keep these abilities running, DONT spend points on weapon dmg upgrade)
Group shield is most ineffective below Group shield level 3. But I agree about the damage upgrades, they wont make much of a difference. And never waste any points in Fortified superstructure and Gunnery.... the advantage in firepower is marginal and all durabilty should come from Furios Defense.
-Scout scout scout, always know what your enemy's fleet composition is, and build yours to counter it, done properly you cant lose as your fleet is immensely buffed by anky
And thats the advantage of the Ragnarov....
Capships bothering you? snipe them
LRM bothering you? Scattershoot.... BOOM BOOM.... all dead.
-Use starbases! twin SBs are awesome if used correctly and the opponent is stupid enought to try to take em on. good for denial of access keeping you fighting on one front only or surviving at ur homeworld in a suicide spot
Twin Fortresses is sweet.... but highly late game and only effective against the AI. Thanks to BRB no sane player will ever attack a TEC starbase directly.... so if you have of them he will either
- just fly by to the next undefened planet.... and now... you cant pay them everywhere.... not against a human of similar skill level
- or bomber spam you into oblivion... sure it takes 2 times as long... but the result is the same.
-Remeber, the bigger your fleet, the better. Due to anky and militia buffs, your fleets strength increases much more than your opponent when you increase its siza
Actually I could imagine that using mostly Kodiaks and carriers would be quite good for TEC Loyalists. Then lets face reality.... even with Level 4 on group shields... smaller ships will rarely survive more than 1 or 2 Titan ability.
Counters to the following tough adversaries
-vs strong all round fleet: heres why you need at least one preferably two marzas. MB, rinse repeat watch ur caps/titans ding
-Bomber spam: cobalt light frigates and flak... LOTS of em, srsly its amazing how much cobalts SHRED carriers
-Eradica: OP thing as it currently is, your only hope is to kill it ASAP with a bomber spam, keeping your units group shielded, heavy losses are inevitable but, i have beaten a lvl 4 eradica + fleet with my lvl 5 anky + fleet + 80 bombers in a neutral gravity well, try to burn its AM aswell (if you know to expect it maybe throw in a dunov after a marza or two).
-Maw: dont let it get to the point where it gets that OP fkn bullshit
-Ragnarov: If you have a decent fleet with your anky and are reasonably evenly matched, you WILL win in almost any situation, simple.
Do you split up your fleet into 10 parts or how do you avoid the scattershot of doom that will pulverise your frigates in no time? Yes, Eradica is a monster.... but then it is arround the only thing Advents have against Phase"what shields"? missiles. I am unsure if the Ankylon has enough firepower to make even a dent into its shields.
Yes, the Maw is murderous.... in the hands of a skilled player you can forget frigates, cruisers and carriers.
Then there is another problem. TEC Loyalist economy is not better than TEC Rebel economy.... actually probably it is worse.
For a faction that is supposed to "dig in" the Loyalist have nothing but "War measure act" for increased eco behind the walls.
A defensive faction either needs to make similar ammounts of money as an agressive one or needs to have a defense that is truely frightening.= more cost effective. Right now their defense is at best slighty better against an human opponent.... and hardly game deciding.
All other races have more or less deadly defenses:
TR have Ragnarov.... that will nail your beloved level 10 capship within 30 seconds.. should it be so foolish to enter its range. Not to mention, that should your attack fail, the Ragnarov might pay you a visit afterwards.... even without fleet it does hurt like hell.
AR have Wail and possible an angry Eradica waiting for you
AL have Supression Auro and high shield mitigation - although that does help mostly against TEC.
VL have mobile starbase and mobile fleet.... no matter where you attack them... their entire fleet will be there within 2 minutes... and their starbase will join in on the defense.
VR: Currently op... not playable in competive multiplayer.
TEC Loyals are poor on the offense.... but for that to be balanced their defense needs to be much more powerful. And they need a competive economy, even with fewer planets.
Again, CAPS and red text just for easier reading. No offense intended!