This is like Skyrim, only instead of smiting we have TBS

And it could be a balanced hybrid with one tiny change

from Elemental Forums

This game is a hybrid between RPG and TBS. Perfectly matching the power of the two is very difficult and for people just trying to win rather then "enjoy the ride" (something that is unlikely to happen unless significant sandbox elements are introduced) choosing to use the one (TBS or RPG) that is more powerful (RPG) as a path to victory just makes sense. I believe that the lore supports the RPG element being the more powerful one and I see no issue here.

So there is nothing wrong with super sovs... in fact its the main theme of the game. This is like skyrim only instead of smiting to get the best gear in the game you use TBS aspects to get +mana and buying items and upgrading your city shops.

And frankly it would be greatly more enjoyable if it stops being so damn coy about what it is and starts properly fleshing out the RPG side of things which is currently way underdeveloped and lacking in polish compared to the TBS aspect.

So please flesh out the RPG (dominant) portion of the game!

Now... if it just so happens you want the TBS portion to be major, either balanced or the primary aspect of the game then one tiny change is needed. You need to remove the stupid "it takes 3 turns minimum to build anything" rule... allowing MULTIPLE things to be built in a single season as long as you have the hammers. And in addition to that, you should drastically lower cost of structures.

Cities will then be able to finish construction and spend turns building armies.

At the moment building armies means not building +mana, +gold, or +research buildings all of which empower your super sov. But if your cities are sitting idle having already maxed on their sov bonuses then there is no reason to not start building armies. And once you have the armies you might actually put them to use. And suddenly this is a balanced hybrid.

14,941 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top


I think most people have played with armies and heroes balanced well will agree that it is loads more fun than what you seem to be saying. I like the idea that certain factions are better off training a few super heroes, while others are going to create massive armies to fight. That is the kind of interesting variety a TBS/RPG needs.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top


This game is a hybrid between RPG and RTS.
End of quote

 

It's a turn-based strategy game, a TBS, with a nice coating of crunchy RPG flavor.  That's what it has been from the start.  The "takes X turns to finish" business is part of being turn-based, if I understand you correctly.  Perhaps I don't.  But have you looked into the RPG material in the game's help system?

 

I won't address you're mentioning Skyrim.  I assume you put it in just to draw attention. ;)

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

And frankly it would be greatly more enjoyable if it stops being so damn coy about what it is and starts properly fleshing out the RPG side of things which is currently way underdeveloped and lacking in polish compared to the TBS aspect.
End of quote

 

Here here.  Couldn't have said it better.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Next thing we know there'll be someone shouting Dork-a-keen and claiming to be dragon born.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top


So there is nothing wrong with super sovs... in fact its the main theme of the game. This is like skyrim only instead of smiting to get the best gear in the game you use TBS aspects to get +mana and buying items and upgrading your city shops.

And frankly it would be greatly more enjoyable if it stops being so damn coy about what it is and starts properly fleshing out the RPG side of things which is currently way underdeveloped and lacking in polish compared to the TBS aspect.
End of quote

 

Can't help but feel you have the whole thing backwards. 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


I think there in a acual Elementel RPG in the consept stage at Stardock.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Supreme, reply 6
Next thing we know there'll be someone shouting Dork-a-keen and claiming to be dragon born.
End of Supreme's quote


Oh, I wouldn't mind watching Procipinee in a flimsy negligee shout "Fus, Roh, Dah!"

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

It's a turn-based strategy game, a TBS
End of quote

Typo. I used TBS 2 times and RTS 1 time in the original post. Edited to be TBS all 3 times.

Can't help but feel you have the whole thing backwards.
End of quote

The developers MADE an RPG with a TBS distraction while INTENDING to make a TBS with an RPG distraction.

The TBS portion is massively more fleshed out as it received significantly more developer attention...

but winning the game comes from focusing on the RPG portion because the RPG portion is so much more powerful and effective in winning games.

I suggested that the developers ADMIT that this is what they have... And either flesh out the RPG portion since this is what the game ended up being... Or that they make the TBS portion actually be a COMPONENT of winning games. And the most obvious method is to slash building construction times. An idle city is a city that would be put to use building armies.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

They made a TBS with RPG features. That the RPG parts of the game are "stronger" right now is a balance issue. I'm certain we will see heroes nerfed in beta 5 because of this.

My opinion is that heroes should be able to take on a trained unit from the same tech advancement in the game. That is to say, in the beginning of the game they should be equal to a 3-man militia. At the end of the game they should be equal to a 9-man mounted heavy plate magic-damage unit.

Currently, the heroes rush through the early levels and reach their "mid-game" while we are still stuck building militia units.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

And that is a problem of balance. This shouldn't be all about two legendary heroes conquering the whole world (and having a few cities that you can disregard whatsoever). It's a turn-based 4X game with *some* elements of RPGs (hero development, quests). Every win should come from creating a well-working kingdom, not by running around with two guys.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 11
They made a TBS with RPG features. That the RPG parts of the game are "stronger" right now is a balance issue. I'm certain we will see heroes nerfed in beta 5 because of this.
End of Heavenfall's quote

The RPG features were stronger since all the way back in the first beta of WoM.

And I am outright PROPOSING appropriate balance changes in the very first post. I am proposing is to increase the quantity of armies by reducing building build times via removal of 3 turn limit and reducing hammer cost... I might actually bother fielding an army in a serious game instead of soloing it with my sov

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

That said, I agree with those that say there needs to be better interaction between heroes and empire-building. This is why, to me, having path of the governor be so bad stings so much. We should be building LEADERS, not WARRIORS.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nehanski, reply 12
And that is a problem of balance. This shouldn't be all about two legendary heroes conquering the whole world (and having a few cities that you can disregard whatsoever). It's a turn-based 4X game with *some* elements of RPGs (hero development, quests). Every win should come from creating a well-working kingdom, not by running around with two guys.
End of Nehanski's quote

Yep... And that is wholly my point.

This is MEANT to be a 4X game... what it is a game where the sov single handedly conquers the world.

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 14
That said, I agree with those that say there needs to be better interaction between heroes and empire-building. This is why, to me, having path of the governor be so bad stings so much. We should be building LEADERS, not WARRIORS.
End of Heavenfall's quote

That I also proposed before... we need a separate "governor XP" that gives "governor levels" which are wholly separate from combat levels and give city bonuses.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

taltamir I think the first post is confusing. It sounds like you agree with us, but when I read the first post it seems like you want to tune the game to more strongly focus on the RPG aspects of it.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 16
taltamir I think the first post is confusing. It sounds like you agree with us, but when I read the first post it seems like you want to tune the game to more strongly focus on the RPG aspects of it.
End of Heavenfall's quote

 

That was my impression of it, as well.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Guys, Taltamir was being sarcastic.  He wants a stronger TBS, and he was saying, "You devs spent all your effort making a TBS, but the way to win is to play like an RPG.  So why don't you just work on that?" while he was wishing that they would actually realize what they have done and balance the TBS elements so they matter more.

I guess that I read his post right, because I feel very much the same way as he does.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

That is what he is saying.  He is now backtracking.

It is a 4x game.  It takes 2 seconds to nerf heroes and increase the strategy element of the game, which I am sure the developers will do in the next patch.  It does not take the undoing of months of game evolution to do this.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 16
taltamir I think the first post is confusing. It sounds like you agree with us, but when I read the first post it seems like you want to tune the game to more strongly focus on the RPG aspects of it.
End of Heavenfall's quote

No, I am saying EITHER thing is fine and an improvement from current status.

Admit that from the first beta of WoM to the latest version of FE for every single version in between you had an RPG with town building being what smiting is skyrim (which is a useful tool for your hero no doubt) and start finally fleshing it out some...

OR if you insist on making this a 4X game with some RPG elements as originally intended then make it viable. And right off the bat you can make it at least take on a larger role by boosting building construction so we have more armies.

Both are completely valid routes to take but one of them needs to happen. And honestly I am actually enjoying going around leveling my super sov and single handedly conquering the world

which I am sure the developers will do in the next patch
End of quote

Yet has not happened from the very first beta of WoM to the very latest beta of FE.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top


I think the game should be such that if you want to focus on heroes you can make them pretty strong. In MoM building super-strong heroes was really a lot of fun. Yes, they were probably too strong in the end, and FE should not go that far. But it was fun. They were also very weak in the beginning, and this was good, since this is basically true in every RPG. I expect a level 1 hero with little to no equipement to be defeated by 3 militiamen or get close to, especially if it's not a warrior type. But in the endgame a well nurtured and equipped hero should defeat (with some sweat) even the most powerful SINGLE unit with full equip. After all, heroes are quite scarcer than units.

Just my two cents

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

At high level MoM heroes were not overpowered.  It took a long time to get the heroes to world-beating gods (Torin may have been an exception).  In 10% of the time I could have gotten champion halfling slingers and conquered the world without breaking a sweat.

Having heroes that can ultimately become gods is fine, as long as the opportunity cost of doing so is big enough to make other strategies viable.  That is what the devs need to do when concentrating on balancing the game.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top


By the way, this is something I never quite understood. Everyone talks of overpowered slingers, but there were units with Missile Immunity (e.g. all magicians) that would have caused huge problems to slingers, not to mention the Guardian wind spell or, worse, Flame strike, to get rid of them in 1 turn. Personally, I always thought the strongest unit were Paladins... but this discussion might be off topic :)