Balancing is just Broken » Forum Post by Rovert10

Due to the lack of actual data in Sins, I've begun theorycrafting numbers.

A fully upgraded terran planet has 6000 HP and a population probably superior to that of Earth today, observed through the illumination of civilization on the planet's dark side, as well as the massive ( obviously exaggerated but still count as massive ) cities that can be seen from orbit.

For the sake of having something to compare it to, we'll assume it's got the population of Earth.

Now, the 6000 damage represents the amount of bombing damage it would take to wipe out all human/advent/vasari life on the planet ( so not a complete sweep of all living things ).

A Tsar Bomba, weighing in at 50 megatons, has a fallout area of 1000 square kilometers. Human civilization spreads over 18 million square kilometers.

It would then take 18 000 Tsar Bombas, or 900 000 megatons, to wipe out all human life on Earth.

What's this mean? Those 900 000 megatons are represented by 6000 health points on a planet. Which means each point of health ( and therefor, damage ) represents 150 megatons of destructive force.

So, an Advent Seeker Vessels, which has an indicated 2 damage-per-second ( it's damage per second right? I'm not sure how the numbers on the infocards work in relation to weapons firing / quantity of weapons / cooldown time ) is actually dishing out 300 megatons of firepower every second, and that's just a scout ship.

This might sound excessive, but Sins is in the far future. The Vasari have been around far longer than humanity and have developped their weapons long ago. The Advent were really damn pissed and spent 1000 years focusing on finding better ways to eradicate the TEC. And the TEC, well they just had to match what the other two races were putting out if they wanted to survive, so they built damn big guns. Really damn big guns, as demonstrated by the 20km long rail cannon that we call the Ragnarov.

This speaks for the shields and armor in the game as well, since they withstand all that firepower several times over.

Now you might argue that there is no link between planet health and ship health, but planets have their own set of weapons, siege weapons, that can only be used against them, and no weapon used in ship-to-ship combat can be fired against a planet.

Basically, if they didn't want this kind of comparison, they could simply have given the planet 100 000 health and given the siege weapons higher damage values and the game would have been exactly the same.

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Maybe the TEC rebel titan uses the scrap left over from the ships it destroys to power some sort of foundry engine......

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I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 28

I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

Too be fair however the other is more interesting.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 28

I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

....it was.

I blame Mayall for randomly starting to talk about the TR Titan

I blame XubXub, who linked the newton is the deadliest bastard in space video for getting me off track!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH *runs out the door*

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Quoting TerribleNate,

reply 29

Quoting Rovert10, reply 28I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

Too be fair however the other is more interesting.

Ten points to me for being interesting.

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Quoting TerribleNate,

reply 29

Quoting Rovert10, reply 28I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

Too be fair however the other is more interesting.

To be fair the balance of the game is more important.

Just to let you know.

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Quoting Rovert10,

reply 32

Quoting TerribleNate, reply 29Quoting Rovert10, reply 28I thought this was a thread about balance not about the physics and dimensions of the TEC rebel titan.

Too be fair however the other is more interesting.

To be fair the balance of the game is more important.

Just to let you know.

Yes, but now we know it's not the bloody Reapers coming after the Vasari because they can't take that much firepower. Mass Effect fans shutup.

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well, the seeker actually does slightly more dps than that. But I think that's a flawed comparison anyhow.

Planet bombing is closer conceptually to what nukes do, and the bombing damage is far lower than the damage rates by the ship to ship weapons. For instance, the Advent Siege capital ship only does .195 dps to population a second and 5 dps to the planet health.

So, to be clear, here is where I see the problems in that comparison:

you set 6000 HP as = 900,000 megatons. the planet population is wiped out far sooner than that, and I think that is a closer comparison... So given everything else, this error grossly underestimates the power in sins weaponry
you set 1 planet HP = 1 Ship HP/SP. There is no reason the damage done to ships is in anyway correlated to the damage done to a planet. Completely different weapons are used, and the only thing that makes it appear to be correlated is the numbers are similar. However, that's like saying the numbers from earthquakes and video game reviews translate directly because they have similar numbers.... This error makes the whole argument moot.
you set 1 second in 'game time' = 1 second in 'Sins time'. Even if you could prove that a seeker vessel shoots 2100 megatons per shot (Seeker shoots once every 7 seconds), that does not mean 300 megatons per second. Remember, the population on planets shoots up very quickly. So, I am force to think that 'Sins time' is greatly accelerated when translated into 'game time'. The only way around this is to think that somehow people are waiting in line to live on the planet. as soon as they have access, they are 'added'. The population does not grow naturally this way, for any race.... Given everything else, this error grossly overestimates the power in sins weaponry

No, I don't think you can just say the effects cancel, ignore the 2nd point and walk away

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 34

you set 6000 HP as = 900,000 megatons. the planet population is wiped out far sooner than that, and I think that is a closer comparison... So given everything else, this error grossly underestimates the power in sins weaponry

Ok, that's all you had to say, I'm happy with this.

Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 34

you set 1 second in 'game time' = 1 second in 'Sins time'. Even if you could prove that a seeker vessel shoots 2100 megatons per shot (Seeker shoots once every 7 seconds), that does not mean 300 megatons per second. Remember, the population on planets shoots up very quickly. So, I am force to think that 'Sins time' is greatly accelerated when translated into 'game time'. The only way around this is to think that somehow people are waiting in line to live on the planet. as soon as they have access, they are 'added'. The population does not grow naturally this way, for any race.

I know I should have taken the time to check how many times they fire and what the weapon cooldown is and blah blah but that was more math than I was willing to do in one afternoon, so I simplified for the sake of this being an example.

As for planet population, there is probably imigration from already populated worlds of each faction, not to mention the people that already lived on those worlds, because all neutral worlds are in fact human or pirate worlds which already have populations of their own but have not joined the coalition. So in addition to the imigration, you have refugees who might decide to join the coalition after losing their home, who might fall under the influence of the Advent's culture and go to one of their planets to join the Unity, or get captured and brought into slave labor by the Vasari.

For the passage of time, I'm inclined to think it happens in different instances depending on which aspect of the game you're considering. Combat could be real-time, but tax income is usually a monthly thing whereas it happens every second in Sins, but to think that every second translates to one month for every aspect means it could take several months to travel from one planet to another, let alone from one star to another, which makes phase space hardly more efficient than regular sub-light travel. Thus, as I said, I believe combat and travel happens in real time, while construction, income, research happens on another ratio like one second equating to one month.

...but we know for a fact that this war spans over 30 years ( so far ), so even the one second to one month ratio couldn't be true. Scratch that then. Back to point one, ships pack huge firepower, Reapers die, I'm happy.

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Or.. It could be.. A GAME!

Thread has been derailed. Get back on subject.

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Quoting Pat_22_,

reply 35

I know I should have taken the time to check how many times they fire and what the weapon cooldown is and blah blah but that was more math than I was willing to do in one afternoon, so I simplified for the sake of this being an example.

Actually, that part was fairly rigorous in my opinion. The cooldown was not strictly necessary. I mentioned it purely because I was comparing the difference per shot to per second and was attempting to be rigorous as well. My point there was there is probably a difference in time, so what looks like a bullet travelling over several seconds could be a very long time indeed (you mentioned a 1 second = 1 month conversion, which I have no idea how you came up with it, but it's worth pointing out).

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,

reply 36

Or.. It could be.. A GAME!

This man cites no evidence... clearly, a crackpot theory and mostly false.

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Seeing that the speed of light is...well, very fast, I conclude that 1 second gametime is approximately equal to 1 microsecond real-time...

This conclusion is based on the observation that I can see the laser pulses from all ships...

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 37

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 35
I know I should have taken the time to check how many times they fire and what the weapon cooldown is and blah blah but that was more math than I was willing to do in one afternoon, so I simplified for the sake of this being an example.

Actually, that part was fairly rigorous in my opinion. The cooldown was not strictly necessary. I mentioned it purely because I was comparing the difference per shot to per second and was attempting to be rigorous as well. My point there was there is probably a difference in time, so what looks like a bullet travelling over several seconds could be a very long time indeed (you mentioned a 1 second = 1 month conversion, which I have no idea how you came up with it, but it's worth pointing out).

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 36Or.. It could be.. A GAME!

This man cites no evidence... clearly, a crackpot theory and mostly false.

The 1 second : 1 month ratio came from the income speed. Last I checked tax income was a monthly thing, but it happens every second in game, suggesting that every second is one month.

But, as I've said, all of this happens within 30 years, limit set by the Sins universe itself, so one second cannot possibly be one month for no game could last longer than ( 12 seconds = 1 year, 30 years = 30x12=360 ) 360 seconds, or twelve minutes.

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Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 38

Seeing that the speed of light is...well, very fast, I conclude that 1 second gametime is approximately equal to 1 microsecond real-time...

This conclusion is based on the observation that I can see the laser pulses from all ships...

Quite sure they're using the hollywood laser rules, being much slower, I forget the number, but yeah, you would see it, just because it's more fun that way.

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There's no reason that has to be the case... I mean, I've been thinking that in our modern age, we shouldn't have to wait for 1 particular day every few years to vote on topics. Look at the dumb reality shows, tons of people vote on those things... why not get a lot more input from the public?

Coming back to Sins, in a society that has broadband implanted in their head (read: Advent), for example, you could collect taxes in real time and not in a monthly, yearly or whatever period.

The most important point was that you cant equate bombs to ship to ship damage.

Sorry, I nitpick a bit. Hopefully, in a non-annoying fashion.

Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 38

very fast,

very fast is a technical term for 3x10^6 meters per second

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 41

There's no reason that has to be the case... I mean, I've been thinking that in our modern age, we shouldn't have to wait for 1 particular day every few years to vote on topics. Look at the dumb reality shows, tons of people vote on those things... why not get a lot more input from the public?

Coming back to Sins, in a society that has broadband implanted in their head (read: Advent), for example, you could collect taxes in real time and not in a monthly, yearly or whatever period.

The most important point was that you cant equate bombs to ship to ship damage.

Sorry, I nitpick a bit. Hopefully, in a non-annoying fashion.

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 38very fast,

very fast is a technical term for 3x10^6 meters per second

Your nitpick gave us stronger ships so now I can crush my star wars opposition, it was all for the better, no excuses needed.

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Quoting XubXub,

reply 24

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 22Not that firing it non stop wouldn't be fun as hell, but you know, sometimes friendly targets might get in the way.

A slug from that hitting one of your own cities might not be good for your empire ( alliegance rate drops by 90%? )

Yeah, I somehow think there would be consequences. Fun visual, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCoHT_cHPzY[/quote]

But the probability that a shot would be able to hit any living thing is extremely low. You'd have to account for the motion of planets and gravitational effects. And if the shot misses a planet, it's only traveling at 1.3% the speed of light. It would take hundreds of years for it to even reach another solar system.

Quoting Pat_22_,

reply 26

Due to the lack of actual data in Sins, I've begun theorycrafting numbers.

A fully upgraded terran planet has 6000 HP and a population probably superior to that of Earth today, observed through the illumination of civilization on the planet's dark side, as well as the massive ( obviously exaggerated but still count as massive ) cities that can be seen from orbit.

For the sake of having something to compare it to, we'll assume it's got the population of Earth.

Now, the 6000 damage represents the amount of bombing damage it would take to wipe out all human/advent/vasari life on the planet ( so not a complete sweep of all living things ).

A Tsar Bomba, weighing in at 50 megatons, has a fallout area of 1000 square kilometers. Human civilization spreads over 18 million square kilometers.

It would then take 18 000 Tsar Bombas, or 900 000 megatons, to wipe out all human life on Earth.

What's this mean? Those 900 000 megatons are represented by 6000 health points on a planet. Which means each point of health ( and therefor, damage ) represents 150 megatons of destructive force.

So, an Advent Seeker Vessels, which has an indicated 2 damage-per-second ( it's damage per second right? I'm not sure how the numbers on the infocards work in relation to weapons firing / quantity of weapons / cooldown time ) is actually dishing out 300 megatons of firepower every second, and that's just a scout ship.

This might sound excessive, but Sins is in the far future. The Vasari have been around far longer than humanity and have developped their weapons long ago. The Advent were really damn pissed and spent 1000 years focusing on finding better ways to eradicate the TEC. And the TEC, well they just had to match what the other two races were putting out if they wanted to survive, so they built damn big guns. Really damn big guns, as demonstrated by the 20km long rail cannon that we call the Ragnarov.

This speaks for the shields and armor in the game as well, since they withstand all that firepower several times over.

Now you might argue that there is no link between planet health and ship health, but planets have their own set of weapons, siege weapons, that can only be used against them, and no weapon used in ship-to-ship combat can be fired against a planet.

Basically, if they didn't want this kind of comparison, they could simply have given the planet 100 000 health and given the siege weapons higher damage values and the game would have been exactly the same.

But the Tsar Bomba was not a very efficient weapon since a huge portion of its energy was dissipated out into space. 50 one megaton nukes could do must more damage to a planet.

Also, there shouldn't be any correlation between ship and planet hit points. Planets don't move as fast as ships, they're also much bigger. That means more powerful and heavier weapons that would be easily evaded by enemy ships can be used in planetary bombardment.

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Quoting MadCowKing,

reply 43

Also, there shouldn't be any correlation between ship and planet hit points. Planets don't move as fast as ships, they're also much bigger. That means more powerful and heavier weapons that would be easily evaded by enemy ships can be used in planetary bombardment.

But if that were 100% the case, planets could have their own HP pools separate of ship HP pools, so hundred of thousands, with bombing weapons equally as powerful, as to avoid me or anyone else ever making this comparison.

The possibility remains that I am right.

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Quoting MadCowKing,

reply 43

But the probability that a shot would be able to hit any living thing is extremely low. You'd have to account for the motion of planets and gravitational effects. And if the shot misses a planet, it's only traveling at 1.3% the speed of light. It would take hundreds of years for it to even reach another solar system.

I think you miss the point. Pretty much anything of that size fired directly at a planet would suck, no matter where you lived on the planet.

At 1.3% light speed, the nearest star system might only be a few years away. However, the probability of aiming directly at such a system is pretty darn low, so I'm not sure how to take that statement

Quoting Pat_22_,

reply 44

The possibility remains that I am right, at least in my theory, Sith explained my numbers were off, too low he said.

That isn't what I said. I suggest you carefully re-read...

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 45

Quoting MadCowKing, reply 43But the probability that a shot would be able to hit any living thing is extremely low. You'd have to account for the motion of planets and gravitational effects. And if the shot misses a planet, it's only traveling at 1.3% the speed of light. It would take hundreds of years for it to even reach another solar system.

I think you miss the point. Pretty much anything of that size fired directly at a planet would suck, no matter where you lived on the planet.

At 1.3% light speed, the nearest star system might only be a few years away. However, the probability of aiming directly at such a system is pretty darn low, so I'm not sure how to take that statement

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 44
The possibility remains that I am right, at least in my theory, Sith explained my numbers were off, too low he said.

That isn't what I said. I suggest you carefully re-read...

Damn.

Is denial in my options?

I have now re-read your arguments, will think them through overnight and get back to you on this tomorrow.

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 45

Quoting MadCowKing, reply 43But the probability that a shot would be able to hit any living thing is extremely low. You'd have to account for the motion of planets and gravitational effects. And if the shot misses a planet, it's only traveling at 1.3% the speed of light. It would take hundreds of years for it to even reach another solar system.

I think you miss the point. Pretty much anything of that size fired directly at a planet would suck, no matter where you lived on the planet.

At 1.3% light speed, the nearest star system might only be a few years away. However, the probability of aiming directly at such a system is pretty darn low, so I'm not sure how to take that statement

Are you talking about the Ragnorov gun or the Mass Effect gun? The Ragnorov gun would certainly cause a global extinction event, that thing is massive and probably capable of at least multi-gigaton level damage. The Mass Effect gun is not so impressive. Unless it were to hit in a populated area, it wouldn't cause too much damage. Plus it's all kinetic energy directed at a small point so it wouldn't have the blast radius, massive fireball, or radiation of a nuke.

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Quoting SithLordAJ,

reply 41

very fast is a technical term for 3x10^6 meters per second

No, very fast is a technical term for 3 x 10^8 m/s...

3 x 10^6 would just be fast, not very fast...

+1

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I was speaking of the Ragnorov gun, which was what the post was about. The point was made that, it being a giant gun, it could maneuver through space simply by firing it's weapon, which might cause trouble while trying to leave orbit.

Quoting Seleuceia,

reply 48

No, very fast is a technical term for 3 x 10^8 m/s...

3 x 10^6 would just be fast, not very fast...

Dammit... ok... so what happened was I thought x10^8, but I went and double checked it because I wanted to be accurate, but it wasn't in Scientific notation when I saw it.... I made a careless mistake.

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I would assume that they have a lever or knob that lets them dial down the gun's power.

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