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thimon2k
thimon2k
Join Date 09/2010
+5

[0.86] Merchant building gone??

March 6, 2012 9:32:28 AM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


I am currently playing a game 0.86, where I cannot build the building merchant (one of the early buildings at city levle 2 I think).

 

From the Hiergammon it states that the merchant is available with the tech Cooperation. However I cannot see the merchant building in the build list.

When one of my cities levelled I saw I could chose a building 'Merchant' providing 2 gildar as a level-up-building. Is the merchant moved from ordinary buildings to city-level-up-buildings?

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thimon2k
ManiiNames
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #1 March 6, 2012 9:56:57 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Yes it has been removed from the tech tree and placed in the level-ups.  This is my own personal speculation (disclaimer!) but the merchant building was likely found to encourage extreme city spam and so a (speculation!) balancing pass was made to keep every single city from having one.

- Manii Names

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thimon2k
mqpiffle
Join Date 10/2010
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Reply #2 March 6, 2012 11:34:21 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Yep - they pretty much made it useless! (Along with all of the other improvements that are trapped in the horrible city level-up system.)

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thimon2k
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
+141
Reply #3 March 6, 2012 11:45:24 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
reply 2
Yep - they pretty much made it useless! (Along with all of the other improvements that are trapped in the horrible city level-up system.)

I am sad that you don't like the citylevelup system mqpiffle. A little history, Merchant was too powerful as a midgame tech unlock for level 2. So they decreased it from +3 Gildar to +2. Then, to further reduce the spam incentive, it was moved to level 3, then 4. But at that point Merchant was irrelevant, only adding a small amount of gildar to the more significant population income. Now it is a citylevelup that is ineffectual at +2 Gildar.

 

The problem is not the citylevelup system, but that those buildings add nothing in the way of a bonus to your city. You are right to dislike them, at closer look you will see that many of them are less useful than normal buildings. They need to have better direction though. No reason to remove a potentially exceptional city bonus improvements, just needs some flavor. I have made my own increases to each building, making them specialize a city as described in my improvement review. 

 

Perhaps I could get you to test this out to change your mind?

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thimon2k
ManiiNames
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #4 March 6, 2012 11:47:54 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Not useless.  You just have to decide if:

1.  This will be a militaristic city (Training).

2.  You need more food to get to L4/L5 (Garden).

3.  Food is OK to achieve L4/L5 city but we're poor (Merchant).

4.  We anticipate L5 with this city but it will not be a troop-builder (Mason).

I find all of those choices to be viable at different times.

- Manii Names

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thimon2k
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #5 March 6, 2012 11:52:53 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

My Merchant is +3 Gildar, adds a new weapon to the shop and some special boots. It is a level 3 bonus I believe.

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thimon2k
mqpiffle
Join Date 10/2010
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Reply #6 March 6, 2012 11:57:27 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I understand the rationale behind the level up system.  And I didn't mean the system as a whole is useless, just the current implementation of said system.

I think locking all of those buildings in the CLU system - and thus, removing them from the tradition improvement production system - is really causing the devs to scramble right now for additional improvements to add to the traditional system.

What I recommend is transferring some of those CLU buildings to the traditional system, and adding new features to the CLU system. 

For instance:

  • building upgrades
  • random events
  • resource modifiers (think "We Love the King" day from Civ)
  • sovereign bonuses
  • faction traits

et cetera.

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thimon2k
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #7 March 6, 2012 12:06:12 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

That is a good to hear. I couldn't see why anyone would want to nix leveling.

I think this is an area they will not be fixing until next month. Maybe special faction abilities at levelup could fit into the faction difference that seems to be the current focus by the devs. 

 

It would be nice to have a few guaranteed CLU options for Gilden. They should get some powerful construction and smith options that make them unique. I think a good rule of thumb to is have the rarity set at 100%, no rarity, and have faction CLU options be better versions of the normal CLU options. So a better Mason for Gilden. A better Merchant for Capitar. That sort of thing.

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thimon2k
ManiiNames
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #8 March 6, 2012 12:08:30 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
reply 5
My Merchant is +3 Gildar, adds a new weapon to the shop and some special boots. It is a level 3 bonus I believe.

I agree that the current city level up structure is pretty crappy, the only real differentiation comes at the very end.  Hopefully it gets improved, either by Stardock or through our modding community (/wave Seanw3)

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thimon2k
Lord Reliant
Join Date 03/2006
+39
Reply #9 March 6, 2012 1:41:59 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Thankfully since Brad mentioned city building on the docket for improvements, I'm hopeful this will get some more strategy/fun added. Great analysis of what the current issues are contributing to this, guys!

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thimon2k
Mistwraithe
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #10 March 6, 2012 3:25:37 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Manii Names,
reply 4
Not useless.  You just have to decide if:

1.  This will be a militaristic city (Training).

2.  You need more food to get to L4/L5 (Garden).

3.  Food is OK to achieve L4/L5 city but we're poor (Merchant).

4.  We anticipate L5 with this city but it will not be a troop-builder (Mason).

I find all of those choices to be viable at different times.

- Manii Names

One of my problems is how would you decide this? As you say one needs to decide what the long term goals are for the city but there is no way of looking at the details of your city before choosing which one you want! Stardock really need to allow access to the city screen from the level up dialog.

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thimon2k
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #11 March 6, 2012 3:27:18 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Very True. We can't even see food levels.

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thimon2k
ManiiNames
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Reply #12 March 6, 2012 3:29:32 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
reply 11
Very True. We can't even see food levels.

I agree, this is poor design.  I get around it by naming my cities things I can remember so I know what their values are.  I have also, when the Empire grows too large to manage easily, put "42" or some such in the city name to designate a city with 4 food and 2 mats.

Crappy workaround though.

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thimon2k
thimon2k
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #13 March 6, 2012 4:06:57 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

ok, thx for the reply.

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thimon2k
Alstein
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #14 March 6, 2012 6:43:55 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

The Level 2 improvements are pretty mediocre, except for gallows.

Higher levels get nicer, as they should.

 

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thimon2k
mqpiffle
Join Date 10/2010
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Reply #15 March 7, 2012 12:34:42 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I agree about the gallows, but I think the level three choices are just plain bad.

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thimon2k
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #16 March 7, 2012 12:40:24 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I made Gallows +20% Unrest, +40% Production. 

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thimon2k
TorinReborn
Join Date 10/2010
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Reply #17 March 7, 2012 1:11:49 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Manii Names,
reply 12

Quoting seanw3, reply 11Very True. We can't even see food levels.

I agree, this is poor design.  I get around it by naming my cities things I can remember so I know what their values are.  I have also, when the Empire grows too large to manage easily, put "42" or some such in the city name to designate a city with 4 food and 2 mats.

Crappy workaround though.

Haha this is a good one

Reminds me of my Tribalwars days where I would name offensive villages one way and defensive villages another but both were in code so the other players cannot easily figure out which are which

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