Testing Potential Improvements/Changes to Mines

We did something similar in Distant Stars. It works out pretty well in reducing lag and making the mines a pain the arse in the right way.

I like this idea. Very, very interesting. However, I think that the scouts shouldn't kill the mines. I think the pretty much everything else is gold. Just, not the "scouts kill the mines by revealing them" part, as, IMO, it's a much too radical departure from the way Sins plays.

Considering the cheapness of mines, IMO, they could easily be obsoleted by five or ten scouts, which are very easy to construct. Particularly for the TEC.

Okay wait, I'm confused here...which do you like better, the scouts revealing mines or the scouts being the only ships that can destroy them (but they destroy them outright)?

The game currently has scouts simply reveal mines allowing any ship to attack them...I'm thinking this makes it too easy, so if the scout is the only ship that can kill them, maybe it will take a lot longer...

The fact that scouts have to face the mine does suck up some time...though, the 10s cooldown I'm currently using probably should be increased...

I'm sorry, I should have made myself more clear.

The part I don't like is that scouts are the ships that destroy them. Scouts revealing mines makes perfect sense, IMO. A scoutship would have superior sensors, it is supposed to perform reconnaissance of gravity wells of interest, as well as provide up-to-date information on enemy troop movements.

IIRC, one of the devs said that Flaks+Scouts made for a very efficient mineclearing team. I actually rather like it, TBH. It makes some sense, after all; flaks are inexpensive, and have multi-arc weapons, allowing them to fire on multiple targets around themselves. They're also qutie durable for cost, making them good for flying through a minefield and going all "dakkadakkadakka" on the mines.

Agree with Whiskey here.

I'm going to posit this question then...

Should a single scout be able to reveal infinite mines within a certain range (as it currently does in Dip v1.2) or should it reveal only one at a time?

I think that it should be a middle ground; a scout reveals a few mines within a certain, somewhat small radius. This way, you need multiple scouts, and multiple flaks to clear minefields; the scouts "mark" the mines, and the flaks clear them.

Okay...current radius I think is like 6000m...mines have a sensing range of 2000m....so, maybe the scout's range should be 4000?

Corvettes can be minesweepers

We will see when they arrive.

Maybe something along the lines of targeting on 2 or 3 at a time. Forces you to have more then one scout to guarantee finding them like a real minesweeper fleet would be.

So still AoE, but with a target cap of 2 or 3...

Yes, makes minesweeping a bit more tense.

Also see if you can add a second ability for the mines that will explode due SC passing by only make it a percentage thing like 20% chance that a mine will blow up when a SC passes by.

My problem with mines is that the damage output is small and becomes relatively smaller the longer the game goes on.  They aren't a deterrent to experienced players at all, as they can be 'swept' by ignoring them, as long as you don't allow your ships to bunch up.

Also what often happens is that one LRF will hit a mine and is somewhat damaged, the fleet stops instantly, the minefield can be avoided and later swept.  The Vasari mines are the only useful ones because they are deployed straight into an enemy fleet, so they all explode and you at the very least get damage from them, and more than likely enough ship kills will result to offset the cost.

The vastly lower mine build limit is a sensible solution, however the increased deployment area might just make them worse, even if you increase the numbers.  Gravity mines needed a buff but your proposed buff to Vasari mines in general seems on the heavy side, perhaps? 

What I have always asked for is that the TEC mines should have a huge damage single-target buff and the Advent ones a significant one- in the order of 3x and 2x, perhaps.  It would also help if the mine damage had some tech improvements.  If damage were to be improved along with the lesser used weapons techs that could work, the Vasari ones off wave, the Advent ones off pulse, TEC off laser.  Each step could be 25% extra damage. 

If it could be done, what would also help is if mines had maybe a 25% chance of exploding when they encountered a ship, except that once a mine had exploded all the mines in the well would be 'active' with 100% chance to explode for a set time.  Then the mines would allow a fleet to get deeper into a field before revealing their presence.    

While I'm sure that you do know that Advent don't have pulse weapons, I'm just going to cover all my bases and point out that Advent don't have pulse weapons.

That would be the Vasari. So I'm fairly certain that you actually meant either the plasma or the laser tree for the Advent, and perhaps the beam tree for the TEC, as the laser tree affects many more units than the beam tree?

Disciple Vessel Primary:  Primary Weapons: Forward Heavy Pulse Laser

All the Advent laser weapons are pulse.  But you knew that, and your point is quite reasonable, the Advent plasma and TEC beam techs are less used.  I'm not sure if a beam mine can be rationalised, as a beam is over time damage while a mine normally explodes, but I suppose you could say it was better damage focus or something.

In my opinion, the best thing that could happen to mines is to remove them. Too much effort for too little effect. That, and they lag like crazy once the AI plants them at every system. And, at least in my expierence, in order for the mines to be effective, you have to place them directly in the phase lane path. But what happens when your planets are built up and no one attacks with a large fleet? (IE me, during every game I play.) The mines are worthless, that's what. No one is going to get more than one or two planets in if you are a good player, which vs the AI, I am. All of that being said, mines are completely worthless in my opinion.

By the way, don't argue with Connor. He knows what he's talking about.

The don't use them. And you can remove them from your game and create your own mod. After all, based on your comments you don't play MP a lot so checksum issues should not worry you.

I have removed them, I don't use them, and I don't play multiplayer period. I was merely offering my unwanted opinion.

Okay, gas away

There's actually a good rational for a beam mine.  In the eighties, DARPA did extensive studies of the possibility of using shaped charges in nuclear weapons.  Two strong possible applications emerged:

First, actually focusing and directing a nuclear blast--a thermonuclear shaped charge, in effect.  This has a lot of issues technologically but limited means of accomplishing it were explored.

Secondly (this was part of Reagan's far-future "Star Wars") a means had been developed (and was tested small scale in labs) to amplify radiation into a coherent beam.  These would be grazers and xasers--gamma and x-ray lasers.  The trick to produce and aim them came down to the use of specific metal rods cut to exact lengths and placed around a nuclear warhead.  On detonation, the rods were vaporized but as a result, produced their own burst of  high-energy gamma and x-rays that traveled in a line parallel to the orientation of the rod.  These were pure pulse weapons and one-shot--just like a mine.

So a shaped fusion charge (which is essentially what a fusion drive would be and a shaped explosion would be a fusion drive on steroids) would be a plasma weapon and the coherent beams would be your beam/laser.

Has anyone considered instead of a mine field, a single "mega-mine" that does area effect on a larger scale?  Would cut down on lag and make mines actually scary.

Sinperium brings up a good point. I'd actually like to see that.

Thank you sir. 

We have limited starbases so mines could be the same.  As a rationale, make them phased-antimatter mines that require exact and careful placement in a gravity field and are essentially small robotic ships packed with stealth cloaking, sensor and targeting gear--plus the containment for a large amount of antimatter and a reactive mass. 

In Babylon 5, the Minbari were appalled at Sheridan's use of hidden nuclear mines as WMDs to strike their fleet and leader with no open combat.  WWII saw all sides refrain from using chemical weapons for fear of escalation by enemies and to this day we have a global nuclear deterrent.  Throw in the current dilemma over how to clear old mines post-war and  Dune's "house nukes" policy along with the current nation's policies governing the terms of use of nuclear weapons and there are plenty of precedents for a regulated use of WMDs...not to mention the hazard one detonating in a friendly system would be to nearby merchant vessels and smaller ships.

In fact, to make them really interesting, damage could apply to ALL parties--friend or foe.  Another reason to justify small numbers of them in a system and adds another layer of strategy for both sides and makes the role of scouts in detecting them all that more vital.

Plus, the amount of small mines needed to blockade planetary space approaches a scale that is completely absurd.

You could racially differentiate mines by giving them abilities that activate within their range--reducing speed of nearby ships, preventing phase travel, nanite damaging hull, etc, etc.

In fact, let them be "black hole bombs"--creating a brief singularity when they detonate.  They could use the same negative-repulse the DS black stars does to suck in ships and then have the detonation (rapid evaporation of the unstable singularity) occur closer in.

The use of black holes would merit restrictions all parties would agree to.  No one wants a black hole dropped on a planet and no one wants to accidentally drop one on their own world.

So basically what the OP suggested and what we have done in Distant Stars already. Our minefields wipe out entire fleets and are limited to 50 per planet. Reduction in lag is quite noticeable.

oooo more ideas

*goes back to Distant Stars lab*

Basically do what I do. Expel hot air and look smart. Difference between you and me is that I am not as grumpy.

If you make my black hole mine you better make that version of a black hole for me that's colonizable and doesn't effect the owner so I can play it myself!

I just want it for my own play.

Please make a black hole mine though--would be awesome fun.