Stardock hires Civ 5 lead designer Jon Shafer » Forum Post by HallowedBMyName

Quoting Nesrie,

I am curious. How would you have him "answer" for what happened? I mean i think this is just a symptom of the industry in general trying to talk circles around bad ideas, but really other than reassure people that he's not trying to dumb down Stardock products and be willing to do Q & A's, that's the most he can do.

I would have him publicly come forward and distance himself from the marketing choices that 2k/firaxis took part in. I would have him declare his loyalty to the Gamers Bill of Rights and to the consumer and explain where that loyalty was when Civ 5 released and he stood silent and let people spend money on tripe.

Honestly its not really a Jon Shafer issue...this is more a Gamers Bill of Rights/Stardock issue. If the GBoR is to matter then there must be accountability for those who participate in its violation. Instead it seems Jon Shafer is like a catholic priest being shuffled to another church with the help of the very people who are suppose to stand against the evil said priest represents.

Stardock is suupose to be the patron of the GBoR and thus has to be the standard bearer for accountability and set an example here. They dont have to lynch the guy but they cant hire him like his past is a void either. Otherwise nexxt time these industry standards we are trying to pass get violated the company is just going to say "well..we did the the same thing with our employee Stardock did with Jon Shafer".

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Please forgive me if I said this before. Not feeling good, so I can't rememeber if I said this or not.

First of all, I am disapointed with Civ V. I am a big critic of Jon Shafer and said some negative things about hime. (not personal things) The way I see it, it's the Lead Designer who takes all the credit when things go well, it's the Lead Desinger who takes all the flak when things go wrong. It's just how it goes being a Lead Designer. So I blame him for all the ills of Civ V. If this is right or wrong, who knows. But if Civ V was the best thing since sliced bread, then he would have been said to be the best designer of all time, even better than Sid! So you take the good with the bad.

For me, everyone gets a second chance. Though I blame him for Civ V (right or wrong) I am willing to give him a chance for Elemental wich I just bought and installed. I knew Jon came aboard before I got this game, but I am willing and hoping he will redeam hismelf. He did an awsome job in Beyond the Sword for Civ IV. He even made one of my favorite mods in BtS.

Everyone deserves a second chance. The proof will be in the pudding, so lets wait till the pudding comes out and then we can discuss.

I just find it funny alot of comments say that he wasn't responsible for Civ V. Well I am sure he is not the root of all evils, he was the lead desinger so he has to take the good with the bad. I just find it funny how alot of people say he wasn't responsible for the mess Civ V is. So then for those who like the game, why are you praising Jon for making Civ V so great if he was not responisble for it?

See what I mean. Good things, he gets credit for, bad things he doesn't and it's not his fault? I see Jon as a big boy who can take care of himself. What am I trying to say? Well, yeah I bashed him before, I am disapointed with Civ V. Right or wrong, I blame him. But I am willing to give him another chance and see what magic he can do. Yes he can do magic and I am looking forward to it.

Make some good pudding Jon, make some good pudding.

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Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 201

Quoting Nesrie,
reply 196

I am curious. How would you have him "answer" for what happened? I mean i think this is just a symptom of the industry in general trying to talk circles around bad ideas, but really other than reassure people that he's not trying to dumb down Stardock products and be willing to do Q & A's, that's the most he can do.

I would have him publicly come forward and distance himself from the marketing choices that 2k/firaxis took part in. I would have him declare his loyalty to the Gamers Bill of Rights and to the consumer and explain where that loyalty was when Civ 5 released and he stood silent and let people spend money on tripe.

Honestly its not really a Jon Shafer issue...this is more a Gamers Bill of Rights/Stardock issue. If the GBoR is to matter then there must be accountability for those who participate in its violation. Instead it seems Jon Shafer is like a catholic priest being shuffled to another church with the help of the very people who are suppose to stand against the evil said priest represents.

Stardock is suupose to be the patron of the GBoR and thus has to be the standard bearer for accountability and set an example here. They dont have to lynch the guy but they cant hire him like his past is a void either. Otherwise nexxt time these industry standards we are trying to pass get violated the company is just going to say "well..we did the the same thing with our employee Stardock did with Jon Shafer".

I don't give much credit to the GBOR myself. It was quietly rewritten to allow a release like Elemental to happen and be called okay. The only thing that has any weight in the GBOR anymore is an idea of a refund. GBOR aside, I think your comparison is a little... harsh, as in not a good comparison at all. I could go into depth as to why sanctioned pedophilia is not on the same level as an software employee shifting from one company to another, even if there is some controversy with the game he was part of and the one he is going to be a part of, but I think you already know the comparison is off.

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T

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 203

I don't give much credit to the GBOR myself. It was quietly rewritten to allow a release like Elemental to happen and be called okay. The only thing that has any weight in the GBOR anymore is an idea of a refund. GBOR aside, I think your comparison is a little... harsh, as in not a good comparison at all. I could go into depth as to why sanctioned pedophilia is not on the same level as an software employee shifting from one company to another, even if there is some controversy with the game he was part of and the one he is going to be a part of, but I think you already know the comparison is off.

The Gamers Bill of Rights wasn't written to say "Bad games cannot be released." It was written to say that when a bad game is released, the publisher has the responsibility to recognize that there are dis-satisfied customers, and work to make those wrongs right. It is also to not treat the customer like a villain, and so to keep particularly violent DRM off the streets. To these ends, Stardock has shown nothing but loyal adherence to their own beliefs, and kudos to them for it.

As for Shafer's part in Civ V, you can only work with what you're given. When the funding isn't there to continue development and fix issues, there isn't much a lead designer can do. The new concepts in Civ V are spot on for what they were trying to achieve. Bugs are there, and balance isn't -but I don't think you can place much of the blame on him. Stardock is a company with a much better long term vision than 2k, and I'm really interested to see Shafer's ideas.

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Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 201

Instead it seems Jon Shafer is like a catholic priest being shuffled to another church with the help of the very people who are suppose to stand against the evil said priest represents.

That comes across as written by someone who was either an "insider" who is now going through withdrawals and feels deprived, or from an envious "outsider" who is ticked off he never got a chance to participate in the "fun". It's not really something I would want to announce on a game forum, if I was you.

I would advise you seek professional help.

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Thormodr

Join Date 09/2009

+11

Now Jon Shafer is being compared to an evil Catholic priest?

Since I actually know some people that were abused by Catholic priests I find your analogy quite offensive and highly inappropriate.

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Quoting FutileEmotion,

reply 204

T

Quoting Nesrie,
reply 203

I don't give much credit to the GBOR myself. It was quietly rewritten to allow a release like Elemental to happen and be called okay. The only thing that has any weight in the GBOR anymore is an idea of a refund. GBOR aside, I think your comparison is a little... harsh, as in not a good comparison at all. I could go into depth as to why sanctioned pedophilia is not on the same level as an software employee shifting from one company to another, even if there is some controversy with the game he was part of and the one he is going to be a part of, but I think you already know the comparison is off.

The Gamers Bill of Rights wasn't written to say "Bad games cannot be released." It was written to say that when a bad game is released, the publisher has the responsibility to recognize that there are dis-satisfied customers, and work to make those wrongs right. It is also to not treat the customer like a villain, and so to keep particularly violent DRM off the streets. To these ends, Stardock has shown nothing but loyal adherence to their own beliefs, and kudos to them for it.

As for Shafer's part in Civ V, you can only work with what you're given. When the funding isn't there to continue development and fix issues, there isn't much a lead designer can do. The new concepts in Civ V are spot on for what they were trying to achieve. Bugs are there, and balance isn't -but I don't think you can place much of the blame on him. Stardock is a company with a much better long term vision than 2k, and I'm really interested to see Shafer's ideas.

I didn't say anything about bad. You just read what you wanted into that. Brad says the game was finished. I say it was not, and I don't think it is an accident that was one of the parts of the GBOR that was edited.

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Unfinished is bad. Any game (okay, ALMOST any game) if worked on for long enough will be a decent game. When a game is released "unfinished," that is just another way of saying "unplayable" or "unfun," which is the same as a "bad" game - it does not give the user pleasure.

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Quoting FutileEmotion,

reply 208

Unfinished is bad. Any game (okay, ALMOST any game) if worked on for long enough will be a decent game. When a game is released "unfinished," that is just another way of saying "unplayable" or "unfun," which is the same as a "bad" game - it does not give the user pleasure.

By unfinished I meant that the game did not ship with features printed on the box in actual playable, working order on day 1. I am not using unfinished interchangeably with bad, even if other people might be doing that.

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Quoting Nesrie,

reply 209

Quoting FutileEmotion, reply 208Unfinished is bad. Any game (okay, ALMOST any game) if worked on for long enough will be a decent game. When a game is released "unfinished," that is just another way of saying "unplayable" or "unfun," which is the same as a "bad" game - it does not give the user pleasure.

By unfinished I meant that the game did not ship with features printed on the box in actual playable, working order on day 1. I am not using unfinished interchangeably with bad, even if other people might be doing that.

Ahh, gotcha. I see that as false advertising - I believe that the game box was made from initial ideas and not the final concept, which was Stardock's fault, but I think that was more of a person X in marketing not talking to person Y, and the box being printed before the final feature set was decided on. Dumb, but not unfinished for that reason alone.

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Quoting FutileEmotion,

reply 210

Quoting Nesrie,
reply 209

Quoting FutileEmotion, reply 208Unfinished is bad. Any game (okay, ALMOST any game) if worked on for long enough will be a decent game. When a game is released "unfinished," that is just another way of saying "unplayable" or "unfun," which is the same as a "bad" game - it does not give the user pleasure.

By unfinished I meant that the game did not ship with features printed on the box in actual playable, working order on day 1. I am not using unfinished interchangeably with bad, even if other people might be doing that.

Ahh, gotcha. I see that as false advertising - I believe that the game box was made from initial ideas and not the final concept, which was Stardock's fault, but I think that was more of a person X in marketing not talking to person Y, and the box being printed before the final feature set was decided on. Dumb, but not unfinished for that reason alone.

Nah, not false advertising. False advertising is claiming a game is co-op but then explaining to everyone why the AI isn't there. Unfinished is saying a game is MP and then giving a string of excuses as to why the servers aren't up and nothing is ready. The game wasn't finished. That is just one of many examples I could use with this game. No one would be trying to protect EA if they said they were launching a game that supported an epic 32 vs 32 player gaming experience and then for a month tried to tell everyone the servers weren't up or ready but the game was done.

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Um yeah, you realize that many, many people actually like Civ V (myself definitely included). Jon doesn't owe anybody anything and he certainly doesn't have anything to "answer" for.

Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 201

Quoting Nesrie, reply 196

I am curious. How would you have him "answer" for what happened? I mean i think this is just a symptom of the industry in general trying to talk circles around bad ideas, but really other than reassure people that he's not trying to dumb down Stardock products and be willing to do Q & A's, that's the most he can do.

I would have him publicly come forward and distance himself from the marketing choices that 2k/firaxis took part in. I would have him declare his loyalty to the Gamers Bill of Rights and to the consumer and explain where that loyalty was when Civ 5 released and he stood silent and let people spend money on tripe.

Honestly its not really a Jon Shafer issue...this is more a Gamers Bill of Rights/Stardock issue. If the GBoR is to matter then there must be accountability for those who participate in its violation. Instead it seems Jon Shafer is like a catholic priest being shuffled to another church with the help of the very people who are suppose to stand against the evil said priest represents.

Stardock is suupose to be the patron of the GBoR and thus has to be the standard bearer for accountability and set an example here. They dont have to lynch the guy but they cant hire him like his past is a void either. Otherwise nexxt time these industry standards we are trying to pass get violated the company is just going to say "well..we did the the same thing with our employee Stardock did with Jon Shafer".

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Quoting charon2112,

reply 212

Um yeah, you realize that many, many people actually like Civ V (myself definitely included). Jon doesn't owe anybody anything and he doesn't have anything to "answer" for.

I respect that you like Civ V - I like it as well. But it does have major bugs that on my system make the game more pain than fun. I do not blame Mr. Shafer for these issues, but I do believe that someone in the Civ V development process really dropped the ball.

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No, I understand how frustrating bugs can be. Luckily, I haven't experienced any.

My problem is these folks that feel that because they don't like Civ V, that Jon owes them an apology. He doesn't. He made the best game he could, and I'm sure he's proud of his work. The idea that he should apologize for Civ V is preposterous...

Quoting FutileEmotion,

reply 213

Quoting charon2112, reply 212Um yeah, you realize that many, many people actually like Civ V (myself definitely included). Jon doesn't owe anybody anything and he doesn't have anything to "answer" for.

I respect that you like Civ V - I like it as well. But it does have major bugs that on my system make the game more pain than fun. I do not blame Mr. Shafer for these issues, but I do believe that someone in the Civ V development process really dropped the ball.

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When did the gaming industry start following Kindergarten rules ? We should embrace him because he "tried" hard ? Did the "best" he could ? You dont know that. Jon has been silent and sheltered by Frogboy and Stardock. The story is a bit misty atm. Wheres the transparency Brad ?

Regardless of what you thought of CiV Shafer stayed on while decisions were made that violate the GBoA. He didnt quit, he didnt speak out and he did what was good for his career not what was good for the consumer. What is the point of setting industry standards if even the parton of these standards ignores them when it benefits them to do so.

Shafer needs to face some music and answer hard questions publicly and Stadock needs to walk their talk or stop pretending to be any different than any of the other gaming corps out there. You know amazingly enough..some people learn to ride their bike quicker because they fall off and fall hard. Facing the music might benefit the guy.

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I don't care for Civ V and I am upset. Yes I would love to hear from Jon's side. But I know because of agreements or contracts signed he may not be able to say anything.

Any ways, this is not a place to talk about Civ V. This is Elemental, and everyone deserves a second chance. Let his work speak for himself. He even asked for let him to prove himself. AGain, everyone deserves a second chance. So let him have it and not dwell on Civ V. There is a 2K forum where you can go to dwell on Civ V if you like.

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Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 215

When did the gaming industry start following Kindergarten rules ? We should embrace him because he "tried" hard ? Did the "best" he could ? You dont know that. Jon has been silent and sheltered by Frogboy and Stardock. The story is a bit misty atm. Wheres the transparency Brad ?

Regardless of what you thought of CiV Shafer stayed on while decisions were made that violate the GBoA. He didnt quit, he didnt speak out and he did what was good for his career not what was good for the consumer. What is the point of setting industry standards if even the parton of these standards ignores them when it benefits them to do so.

Shafer needs to face some music and answer hard questions publicly and Stadock needs to walk their talk or stop pretending to be any different than any of the other gaming corps out there. You know amazingly enough..some people learn to ride their bike quicker because they fall off and fall hard. Facing the music might benefit the guy.

Is this a joke? Stardock, hate or love them, is the most transparent company there is. There are Ma & Pa diners that are more clandestine than Stardock.

And who are you to demand anything from Jon? He doesn't owe you shit.

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AlLanMandragoran

Join Date 09/2010

+63

Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 215

When did the gaming industry start following Kindergarten rules ? We should embrace him because he "tried" hard ? Did the "best" he could ? You dont know that. Jon has been silent and sheltered by Frogboy and Stardock. The story is a bit misty atm. Wheres the transparency Brad ?

The parties are governed by non-disclosure agreements. I'll go ahead and reference Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement

Jon Shafer is not a dingo and he did not eat your baby. If he is a dingo and somehow ate your baby, the NDA prohibits him from talking about it. Please get over it.

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Thormodr

Join Date 09/2009

+11

Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 215

When did the gaming industry start following Kindergarten rules ? We should embrace him because he "tried" hard ? Did the "best" he could ? You dont know that. Jon has been silent and sheltered by Frogboy and Stardock. The story is a bit misty atm. Wheres the transparency Brad ?

Regardless of what you thought of CiV Shafer stayed on while decisions were made that violate the GBoA. He didnt quit, he didnt speak out and he did what was good for his career not what was good for the consumer. What is the point of setting industry standards if even the parton of these standards ignores them when it benefits them to do so.

Shafer needs to face some music and answer hard questions publicly and Stadock needs to walk their talk or stop pretending to be any different than any of the other gaming corps out there. You know amazingly enough..some people learn to ride their bike quicker because they fall off and fall hard. Facing the music might benefit the guy.

These are the Elemental Forums. I could give a damn about anything else but Elemental. (Unless it's in the other games forum.)

I just want Jon Shafer to bust his hump to make Elemental the most moddable game out there and contribute to making it the best game possible.

I don't care about Civilization 5 on here. That's water under the bridge.

Stardock is a better run company than Firaxis and doesn't have the horrendous 2K Games handicapping them at every turn.

It's a much less poisonous work atmosphere I'm sure.

I expect great things out of Jon Shafer and I fully expect him to deliver.

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Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 215

When did the gaming industry start following Kindergarten rules ? We should embrace him because he "tried" hard ? Did the "best" he could ? You dont know that. Jon has been silent and sheltered by Frogboy and Stardock. The story is a bit misty atm. Wheres the transparency Brad ?

Regardless of what you thought of CiV Shafer stayed on while decisions were made that violate the GBoA. He didnt quit, he didnt speak out and he did what was good for his career not what was good for the consumer. What is the point of setting industry standards if even the parton of these standards ignores them when it benefits them to do so.

Shafer needs to face some music and answer hard questions publicly and Stadock needs to walk their talk or stop pretending to be any different than any of the other gaming corps out there. You know amazingly enough..some people learn to ride their bike quicker because they fall off and fall hard. Facing the music might benefit the guy.

Hey thweetheart, it's not the end of the world. Not even the end of your world. Why don't you just take a midol and get over it.

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The game was going poor, so they decided to be sure to kill it with Shafer. I don't understand what they are doing.

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He needs to "answer" for what he has done? C'mon get over yourselves.

I bought CIV5 special (or elite or collector or whatever it was) edition a few days before release I just couldn't resist playing what I imagine would be one of my favorite games. I played the game for about 8 hours, two or three days before realizing it just wasn't fun at all to play. I kept it on my hard disk untill the patch and after playing for a while after the patch I uninstalled it and just cut my losses. Not wasting my time with a game that I simply do not like. I never enjoyed the game and I did not get my money's worth with it.

People go to McDonald's everyday. Personally I think they are paying to eat crap, seriously crap. Yet I don't see people asking for McDonald's "lead designers" to come out and "answer" for selling crap to their costumers. Some people actually like it which is easily proven by the amount they sell.

CIV5 is not a commercial failure. We will never know the inside story about the dealings between Jon and Firaxis but in my opinion I doubt Firaxis was upset with how it turned out. They ordered a blockbuster game and his team (if we can call it that) delivered a blockbuster game. If he wasn't content with how the game turned out, we'll never know, if Firaxis wasn't content with how the game turned out, we'll never know either. Normaly these things have a way of being much less dramatic then people want them to be. My guess is that they just decided it was time to part because of differences of views with what to do from now on.

The lead designer for a game I did not like doesn't have to "answer" me for anything. His team made a game, I didn't like it, we move on. I don't go around asking directors for money when I don't like their films, and let me tell you there are some films that make you wonder if you could get those two wasted hours back. I don't go around flaming book writers when I don't like their books.

Anyway, all this discussion about CIV5 is nonsense. A lot of people like the game. Maybe a lot of the old fans didn't like it, but it is hardly a commercial failure. CIV5 is NOT MOO3.

The thing that matters here is Jon Shafer was hired by Stardock and what does this matters to us. Personaly, it doesn't make me say "awesome" or "damn". It is probably a good thing for Stardock. I can only imagine the kind of experience that he can bring after being involved with such a massive project. Also I'm willing to bet Brad knew exactly what kind of reaction people would have, all this nonsense about how he ruined your lives , etc. If he was willing to go through all that for the men's experience then, well Jon can't be that bad.

For what is worth, Jon, welcome and I hope you can help Elemental (and future Stardock projects).

Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 201

Instead it seems Jon Shafer is like a catholic priest being shuffled to another church with the help of the very people who are suppose to stand against the evil said priest represents.

With all due respect comparing making a game you didn't like to child abuse is just...NO!

..and also, don't you think you are being naive? This is business, if he wasn't worth Stardock's money (and I bet it is a lot) he wouldn't be here. You really think that all the gaming companies just think he is too cute to let go? Trust me, if he didn't know what he was doing he would not be here.

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Look..I know you wanna be fanbios and circle the wagons around the guy ..but we live in a world (or at least we use to) where your work is graded. The man was giving one of the most successful franchise ever and the community largely views what he produced as a failure. And while he was working in it, whether he made the decisions personally or not, the decisions made violated the GBoR. He earned the title " the guy that screwed up CiV" and hes going to wear that the rest of his life..no amount of rainbows and fluffy bunnies is going to stop that.

As for Stadock being a business ya that fine but they have taken the moral highground with the Gamers Bill of Rights and that makes it more than just about business/money. Moving the industry standards away from customers being a resource to be havested from is a good thing and I hate to see them ruin any creditability they have by ignoring their own project.

I'm not saying dont hire the guy. But he needs to close the door on his past and clear his name beforehand else the GBoR becomes do as I say not as I do.

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Yea, that 90 metacritic score is a real albatross around Jon's neck, I'm surprised anyone would want to hire him. I mean, why couldn't he have gotten a 100?

You don't like the game. That's it. Just because you and some other basement dwelling troglodytes on some video game forums, places of rancid hatred and desperate virginity, don't like a game, that doesn't mean everyone has come to the same conclusion. Jon should close the door by slamming it in your face. You don't like it? So what? Doesn't owe you shit. Bitch once and move on.

+1

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Thormodr

Join Date 09/2009

+11

Quoting enoeraew37,

reply 223

Look..I know you wanna be fanbios and circle the wagons around the guy ..but we live in a world (or at least we use to) where your work is graded. The man was giving one of the most successful franchise ever and the community largely views what he produced as a failure. And while he was working in it, whether he made the decisions personally or not, the decisions made violated the GBoR. He earned the title " the guy that screwed up CiV" and hes going to wear that the rest of his life..no amount of rainbows and fluffy bunnies is going to stop that.

As for Stadock being a business ya that fine but they have taken the moral highground with the Gamers Bill of Rights and that makes it more than just about business/money. Moving the industry standards away from customers being a resource to be havested from is a good thing and I hate to see them ruin any creditability they have by ignoring their own project.

I'm not saying dont hire the guy. But he needs to close the door on his past and clear his name beforehand else the GBoR becomes do as I say not as I do.

Firaxis doesn't have a gamer's bill of rights. Stardock does.

When Jon Shafer violates the bill of rights while he is working at Stardock, then I'll sit up and take notice.

This isn't a question over whether people are being fanbois or not. This is merely common sense.

I am profoundly unhappy with Civilization 5 but I strongly suspect that the suits at 2K Games (who are always teetering on the verge of bankruptcy) and their investors greatly influenced what direction the game was going to take (mass market watered down drivel) and forced them to release the game at least a year too early. I will reserve my venom for them.

Jon Shafer will get my encouragement as I want Elemental to be the worthy successor of MoM and AoW that it was originally touted to be. Is Jon Shafer perfect? Not a chance. None of us are. It's part of being human. The most important thing in life however is learning from your mistakes. I am willing to bet that he has and will flourish in a much better working environment.

Brad isn't a moron. He knows what he is doing and recognized an opportunity to snap up an extremely talented person who can make the game he loves better and help regain his reputation with the community. I am going to trust him on this one. If you don't, that's your call.

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