Sorry in advance if this strikes anyone as flamebait.

I just bought Civilization 5, and I'm amazed by a. how polished it is and fun it is to play (though there are some graphical glitches every few hours that require a restart) and b. how many of the new things introduced in this version of Civilization are mirrored in Elemental.  I didn't think it was possible for a game released in 2010 to be a Civilization 5 clone, but Elemental is one.

I'd gotten fired up over a video posted on Rock Paper Shotgun and pre-ordered Elemental.  I've hungered for a new turn-based strategy game with RPG elements for a long time.  Unfortunately, my enthusiasm got the better of me.

I've played Stardock games in the past:  Galactic Civilizations and Demigod.  I didn't like either one of them.  I didn't play either one for more than an hour.

I've never participated in a beta before, so take this with a grain of salt:  I don't see any difference whatsoever between the beta and release versions of Elemental.

All of these factors taken together lead me to conclude that Elemental just isn't worth bothering with anymore.  Maybe I'll come back to it after the expansions, but I now see it as a waste of time.  (Of course, I also see Civilization 5 as a waste of time; but at least a fun waste of time.)

I now expect Stardock's Forum Nazis to lock this threat, delete this comment, and ban me.  Thanks and goodbye.

It isn't possible.  You could call them twins if you like, but you can't clone something that didn't exist.

Finally! I was growing tired of your absolutely dreary attitude.

Elemental might not be the gem everyone expected but it has more potential than most games, especially Civ 5. And I know many are pinning all their hopes on 1.1 but I'm looking far beyond that. Believe me, a bit of tweaking won't satisfy me. Once they attended to the complaints on AI, gameplay, etc, I'm expecting a bit more work done on the setting as a whole. Like many others, I'm hoping for a world with more personality and more depth, one where you can lose yourself in war, adventure, or even politics.

Playing Elemental for several hours on release day killed all my enthusiasm for the game. It was blatantly obvious that many hundreds of hours of development time needed to go into the game to actually make it worth me playing. I tried playing it with the recent patches, and *some* of the most glaring out of memory errors were solved but not all. Its not the bugs that stopped me playing it however, the game is just bland and not much fun.

For the moment I have shelved Elemental. I will pop back and try it out when each expansion comes out, but I suspect that I will need to wait for both expansions to be released for Stardock to release all the gameplay problems (particularly the tactical combat). Im still a bit worried that design decisions like making all the factions essentially the same, will force me to rely on modders to make it more interesting.

Now, I love Civ V too, but, zoom in on a city in Civ V and you'll see a few little un-animated cubes.  Compare that to the full-of-life cities of Elemental.  Fully animated, little people going about their lives, talking, working.  Flags wave, windmills turn...I wouldn't say Civ V is more polished.

Gee, that's too bad.

It's certainly a fair point to dislike the way combat is handled in Civ, but then again, combat isn't the focus, and I think if they had gone for the additional tactical map it would have slowed the game to a crawl without adding much.  Because for one thing, tactical combat AIs suck in general, and giving the player yet another place to cheese the AI is neither interesting nor wise (the decision to not include tactical combat in GC2 was a good one I thought).

Also, comparisons to 'node' based games like the MoO series are inappropriate, because Civ has an open strat map (though bounded by impassible terrain as opposed to GC2 where there are no bounds, other than the edges).  Civ combat is much more about strategic placement of your forces.  Of course, SoDs don't seem strategic, but their composition and movement require at least some forethought in what and where you produce.  Also depending on the map size (or player density if you prefer) the game speed, the era... combat and SoDs are very different.

Yes eventually you have tanks and artillary and tons of units and railroads and you can just shove your SoD around nearly at will, however, the beginning portions of the game, before you have a complete road network (and even if you do on larger maps you still can't just get forces anywhere quickly) predicting where the hot spot(s) will be is important, and garrisoning your border cities is critical.  Unit mix (due to the semi RPS system in place) is important, and if you're missing the right counter you will get chewed on, or at least take higher losses than necessary.

The actual combat resolution is not particularly interesting, I agree, but it works well enough, and is a sound enough system to make it not overly prone to cheese tactics like the system in Civ3 was.

Granted, your ultimate goal is always the same, the SoD composition is (resource dependent) always the same, and the way you use the SoD is nominally always the same.  I don't see that so much as a negative though, because most games wind up like that.  The interesting part is getting to the point where you have your SoD or have your counter to the AIs SoD(s).

But yeah, if you are thinking Civ is about combat you will be disappointed.

I have said it before but will do so again.

Any game with a "5" at the end of its name, should be "vastly" better (just because) than one that is yet to have even see it first Major (1.1) update, let alone a second iteration.

Given 5 chances to make something from the same set of parts has to be very advantageous to that creator. A first pass using a brand new set of "things" is obviously, well to some anyways, not as easy.

Having said that, 1.1 should be quite interesting and the changes from 1.0 to 1.09 certainly show how fast things can be "corrected", for lack of a better term, really.

I have faced many games that have "growing pains" and as such don't find E:WoM's any different. I, like most others I suppose, would love to buy the final product from the shelf but the Industry apparently operates on a different set of assumptions.

Complaining about what has become the "norm" is pointless. If you are dissatisfied, after spending money, do more research, don't fall for the hype, and or display that dissatisfaction with the use of your wallet, or lack thereof.

I have stayed with the Medium Map size for now as I know roughly how long a game will take on them but I am still quite psyched to get my butt onto a Immense or whatever the MAX size will be/become as E:WoM is FUN when you don't nitpick the shit out of it.

The whole "Alpha" to now "Beta Z (1.0)", and beyond, experience has been kinda neat. Really shows the full requirement to create a game. I do honestly believe that a game is never really done and am glad SD feels the same way. I have many games that just sorta stop growing, when obviously they required more growth.

So carry on SD. Time will be both your friend and your enemy. It will only matter who who ask which way it goes.

I've seen Brad apply that logic in a not-so-direct fashion in several of his posts, and I completely disagree.  If you set out to create a game, it should stand on its own merits, regardless of what went before, what engine you're using, what platform you're building on, etc.  And that game will be, and SHOULD be, compared to its contemporaries, not game one of whatever series is being rehashed by the current iteration of its contemporaries.

The only expectation for the game with the "5" at the end of its name is a somewhat familiar game experience; that does not equate to the game being somehow vastly better than something "new", or something "new" being given a free pass.

This is my experience exactly, and I imagine the experience of many.

I'm a fan of Stardock and GalCiv, so I still have some hope.  I check out the forums every once in a while to see what is going on because I really want to like this game one day.  I just think that day is still a ways off.

The biggest impact Elemental had on me is that I don't think I will ever buy another game on release day again - StarDock certainly didn't deserve my $50 for Elemental.  Hopefully they can earn it over the next few months.

After hiring Kael my hopes for 1.1 diminished a little. If the 1.1 will be released in October it won't contain Kael's work. So I guess now I'm waiting for 1.2. With a little more diversity and lots of new content:) Although the Kael's role is not completely clear. E.g. can he introduce some major idea that could change the core aspects of the game?... dunno.   

I've taken a bit of a break while waiting for 1.1. Been playing Civ V and some other games. At this point I don't want to spend a bunch of time learning the ins and outs of the game when I know they will change drastically, especially because I like to use magic a lot. Still a great game, but I don't wee myself playing much 'till 1.1.