Tom Chick's "review" » Forum Post by thebigJ

Quoting solidsmooky,

Elemental only has until Civ 5's release to fix itself. Once Civ 5 comes it's a wrap.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's a wrap". Stardock is committed to Elemental and will be working on it exclusively for at least the next year, and that's not going to change even with the release of Civ 5.

Another point to make is that this isn't a zero-sum game. Just because a person buys Civ 5 doesn't mean they can't also buy Elemental. Elemental will never compete with Civ 5 when it comes to sales figures, but nobody ever expected that it would -- not even Stardock -- and besides, with a budget about 1/10th that of Civ 5's, it doesn't need to sell nearly as many copies to be a financial success for Stardock (and according to Brad, they've already broken even from preorders alone).

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Quoting Mtn_Man,

reply 101

Quoting solidsmooky,
reply 87
Elemental only has until Civ 5's release to fix itself. Once Civ 5 comes it's a wrap.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's a wrap". Stardock is committed to Elemental and will be working on it exclusively for at least the next year, and that's not going to change even with the release of Civ 5.

What the hell is this hysteria with regard to EWoM vs. Civ5? This is like the 500th post about this stuff. EWoM and Civ5 are completely different games. What is the only similarity between them? Both are TBS games, and that is all.

+1

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Because TBS games are few and far between. Years between good ones sometimes. With the economy the way it is, and two TBS comming out so close together, people are going to chose one or the other. There's a reason there's a "5" in Civ 5, and I think I, and many others were hoping EwoM would hit one out of the park and give Civ5 an "underdog punch".

In my case, my friends and I were chosing which one to ALL get together, so we could all play together (we don't have 2 X $250 to waist). I was really, REALLY hoping for them to get EwoM, but in the state it was released in, I had no chance in heck to get them to get it with me. Even as I had them over, and started demoing the game, I had to tell them it not released with MP, and even when/if MP starts, there will not even be strategic battles (and we buy TBS games for the "S"). That got them furrowing their brows from the start.

Not to mention, as I tried my best to demo it in front of all of them, I could not figure out or find most the rules/UI info I needed to play the game for them . They kept asking all sorts of questions about the rules; I could not answer them; we could find nothing in the rule"pamphlet" or in the tooltips. And then the bugs kept kicking in all over the place (When the game would lock up, we would reload, only to see our 8-group units down to 4 or less). Over the hours of play, I watched in vain as their faces slowly shlumped into scowls.

Nope, unless SD pulls a hail-Marry pass before Civ5 comes out, my friends will all be getting Civ5. Darn. Sad. But who knows, maybe by Christmas EwoM will be "Christmas present worthy".

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That was a good review, it told it as it was in a constructive manner. It is a good example on how to comment on a game, too often I see PC gamers damning a game if it has faults without pointing out what actually works well.

It also restated what I've read several times in these forums. Elemental has the basis for a great game. It just needs more tweaking, balancing and polishing to get to a much more fun and enjoyable state. Stardock has shown us during the beta and even with the recent patches after release that thanks to Elemental's accessible nature these sorts of things are done quite easily compared to other games (Bad Company 2 is a great example - it currently is in a patch crisis of sorts because when the data is "cooked" and packaged for a patch it produces different hash results making patching very hard and the only way to get around it is leading to a snowballing patch size).

Not to mention Stardock has a reputation rivalled only by Blizzard Entertainment itself in terms of the level of post-release support it provides for its games. This applies not only to games Stardock develops itself, but even to games they have published for other developers. As controversal a release as Demigod was, it was Stardock who developed a completely different multiplayer system using servers for those who just couldn't simply get the Peer-to-Peer connection system to work for them. I've never seen this happen before in the gaming industry.

All in all I think you will find that the game will improve rapidly over the coming weeks, especially after the team has had their rest-up to get refreshed and collect ideas on improving the game. I also believe that Elemental is unique enough that it can stand on its own two feet against Civ5. It might not be as popular as more people probably prefer playing with realistic empires rather than fantasy ones but when I want to play a fantasy-themed game I will be playing Elemental.

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btw i will never play a civilization game. thw whole "spearmen-attacks-helicopter" thing, and napoleon living for thousands of years is just too much of an immersion breaker for me.

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Quoting PurplePaladin,

reply 103

Because TBS games are few and far between. Years between good ones sometimes. With the economy the way it is, and two TBS comming out so close together, people are going to chose one or the other. There's a reason there's a "5" in Civ 5, and I think I, and many others were hoping EwoM would hit one out of the park and give Civ5 an "underdog punch".

Well, I still don't understand the situation. EWoM = fantasy themed TBS, tactical battles, spells, first class modding support, etc. Civ5 = the usual Civ stuff, nothing new basically. So for example if you prefer the fantasy setting & you would like to play tactical battles = EWoM is the way to go. Am I wrong? [PS. I am not buying Civ5 ]

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Quoting surlybob,

reply 4

It's a sad day when games are proclaimed unfocused mish-mashes because they don't play or function like every other game in the genre. When a game that introduced zero innovation to the genre (SC2) gets praised and a game that is trying to shake up the genre (4X) is criticized for lack of "focus", how will game developers react? More innovation or more cookie-cutter crap? Game innovation is like stand up comedy, you gotta take risks and sometimes you just bomb. Sometimes you get heckled and you lash out. I don't want a world where all comics are like Jay Leno and all game developers are like Blizzard.

Yeah, you are absolutlely right!

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In Elemental, you're limited to one weapon and certain gear slots. The weapons don't give special abilities or things that would really distinguish them. The main decision is "bow or mace".

If I had a choice between say a +6 bow or a +3 Frost Arrow bow, that would be interesting. But instead I have a +6 bow and a +3 bow... and why the hell would I ever not use the +6 bow?

But now they've waded into the AAA market, with AAA prices and AAA expectations. Average joe gamer doesn't know or ultimately care who Stardock is or what they intended (...)

I'm not too upset because I know it'll be great in a short while, but many purchasers are understandably upset because they do not share that confidence. I hope they stick with the game long enough to experience what many of us know it will be in a few months, but I can understand if they do not have that sort of patience. A publisher shouldn't expect to rely on the good will of their (...) customers when deciding if something is ready for release.

I've read Brad stating quite a few times that Stardock does not depend on games for money because their other products do well and they can take their time to develop stuff, yet they put out unfinished games that lack polish. Something does not compute.

The real issue at this point, at least for me, is that they (...) made a poor release decision. The game is in an unacceptable state for $50, and it needed more testing/polishing. Period.

Good points that I happen to agree with.

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Quoting Tormy-,

reply 102

What the hell is this hysteria with regard to EWoM vs. Civ5?

I don't know about hysteria, but Civ 5 is undeniably the 500 pound gorilla of turn-based strategy games and an obvious point of comparison for Elemental. That said, I think Elemental offers a distinctive enough experience that Stardock could successfully carve out their own niche.

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Quoting Sethai,

reply 105

btw i will never play a civilization game. thw whole "spearmen-attacks-helicopter" thing, and napoleon living for thousands of years is just too much of an immersion breaker for me.

That's like not eating bacon because you don't like the packaging it comes in. You sir have no idea what you're missing

mmm... bacon

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Quoting Tormy-,

reply 106

Quoting PurplePaladin, reply 103Because TBS games are few and far between. Years between good ones sometimes. With the economy the way it is, and two TBS comming out so close together, people are going to chose one or the other. There's a reason there's a "5" in Civ 5, and I think I, and many others were hoping EwoM would hit one out of the park and give Civ5 an "underdog punch".

Well, I still don't understand the situation. EWoM = fantasy themed TBS, tactical battles, spells, first class modding support, etc. Civ5 = the usual Civ stuff, nothing new basically. So for example if you prefer the fantasy setting & you would like to play tactical battles = EWoM is the way to go. Am I wrong? [PS. I am not buying Civ5 ]

Civ 4 + The Fall from Heaven II mod is supposed to be pretty nice for fantasy tbs. I've never gotten around to trying it though.

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If only someone could combine Civ4's Fall From Heaven II and Dominions 3 with Victoria II.

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Quoting sicjake,

reply 25

"Elemental is not a game I recommend you buy. It's a game I recommend you watch."

Its not a game I recommend you buy to play, Its a game I recommend you buy to mod. Its not a story or an adventure, its a dungeon master's guide with a few ideas for monsters and spells thrown in at the back. Now lets get on with writing a few sourcebooks, a few adventures, and creating great stories.

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Its not a story or an adventure, its a dungeon master's guide with a few ideas for monsters and spells thrown in at the back.

Funny, that's not how it was promoted at all. Or is the book Brad wrote just there to supplement the digital dungeon master's guide?

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Quoting Sethai,

reply 105

btw i will never play a civilization game. thw whole "spearmen-attacks-helicopter" thing, and napoleon living for thousands of years is just too much of an immersion breaker for me.

I don't see why spearmen getting gunned down by helicopters is an immersion breaker. There have been plenty of times in history when low tech people got gunned down by high tech people. If the spearmen had a reasonable chance of winning that would be different, but they do not (not saying that could never win under any circumstances, but it should be extremely rare and only under unusual circumstances).

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To anybody who's said that Brad should admit that Stardock made a mistake to release the game when and how they did:

Quoting Frogboy,

To those reviewing the game: I would urge you to review the game prior to v1.1 [which will be released sometime in September]. I say this because v1.05 (the release day version) is the version of the game that was originally released and if that version of the game is considered flawed then my view is that Stardock should suffer the consequences for that. We appreciate the kindness and patience many people have shown. I just think game studios, including Stardock, need to be conscious of what they release and not expect to "patch themselves out of trouble". I do believe Elemental is, by far, the best game we've ever made but I also agree with most of the criticisms I've read too. The state of PC entertainment has changed since 2006 (when we released GalCiv II) and it is our responsibility to stay with the times.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/394104

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Quoting niteshade6,

reply 115

I don't see why spearmen getting gunned down by helicopters is an immersion breaker. There have been plenty of times in history when low tech people got gunned down by high tech people. If the spearmen had a reasonable chance of winning that would be different, but they do not (not saying that could never win under any circumstances, but it should be extremely rare and only under unusual circumstances).

Actually, it can happen the other way around in Civilization games, but people seem to forget that underneath the hood, the game is just crunching numbers, and it doesn't care what graphic happens to be associated with those numbers. So if the spearman unit happens to have high numbers in the proper column then it can defeat a flying unit, but we're talking an upgraded spearman unit with a high defensive bonus versus a newbie helicopter unit fresh off the landing pad.

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

Quoting Mtn_Man,

reply 117

Actually, it can happen the other way around in Civilization games, but people seem to forget that underneath the hood, the game is just crunching numbers, and it doesn't care what graphic happens to be associated with those numbers. So if the spearman unit happens to have high numbers in the proper column then it can defeat a flying unit, but we're talking an upgraded spearman unit with a high defensive bonus versus a newbie helicopter unit fresh off the landing pad.

It's also REALLY unlikely in Civ 4. It's an earlier version problem that just persists when people talk about the game.

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Anyone who is gunning down spearmen with helicopters in Civilization needs to turn up the difficulty.

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Quoting surlybob,

reply 4

It's a sad day when games are proclaimed unfocused mish-mashes because they don't play or function like every other game in the genre. When a game that introduced zero innovation to the genre (SC2) gets praised and a game that is trying to shake up the genre (4X) is criticized for lack of "focus", how will game developers react? More innovation or more cookie-cutter crap? Game innovation is like stand up comedy, you gotta take risks and sometimes you just bomb. Sometimes you get heckled and you lash out. I don't want a world where all comics are like Jay Leno and all game developers are like Blizzard.

good post .... other reviewers/critics need to really ponder the points made in this post

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*shrug*

To be honest, I'm not seeing anything in Elemental I haven't seen in:

Master of Magic

GalCiv 2

Spore

Heroes of Might and Magic

Master of Orion

...and a host of other games. 4x games are good. They are not synonymous with innovation. I'd hoped for innovation in the magic system Elemental was planning, but no one can deny with a straight face that it's nothing we haven't seen and been bored by before.

As a package, it's all very nice, and it's pulling together a lot of cool game play aspects from lots of places. But let's not start slapping "Innovation" on because we either like the game or because we like Stardock. The game isn't doing anything revolutionary. Yet.

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Quoting Mtn_Man,

reply 117

Actually, it can happen the other way around in Civilization games, but people seem to forget that underneath the hood, the game is just crunching numbers, and it doesn't care what graphic happens to be associated with those numbers. So if the spearman unit happens to have high numbers in the proper column then it can defeat a flying unit, but we're talking an upgraded spearman unit with a high defensive bonus versus a newbie helicopter unit fresh off the landing pad.

That was back in the days of Civ II. With Civ IV and unit classes, this pretty much never happens unless the helicopter is down to 1% health or something, which lowers the defence rating. And you can assume that a helicopter at 1% health is probably going to crash, spearmen or not.

I reckon that's more realistic than the combat models that don't adjust the attack and defence ratings as health goes down. Surely a swordsman with 10% health would barely be able to lift his sword, so shouldn't get their full attack and defence rating.

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As a package, it's all very nice, and it's pulling together a lot of cool game play aspects from lots of places. But let's not start slapping "Innovation" on because we either like the game or because we like Stardock. The game isn't doing anything revolutionary. Yet.

Well, "revolutionary" would be the creation of a whole new genre. Within the confines of the "fantasy TBS" genre, elemental has some neat ideas put together in unique ways. I totally agree that isn't "Revolutionary". Innovative, however? Yes.

My gripe was people who criticized them doing this, saying that they had created a "mish-mash". Obviously, they wouldn't have been subject to that criticism if they had secured the rights to Master of Magic and made a straight up clone with enhanced graphics. Then again, knowing the gaming press, they probably would have complained about it being "unoriginal" and "a clone with improved graphics". You'd be able to read the review right under their A++++ review of Starcraft II.

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I get a sense of purpose from their mechanics, but they're all in a very basic, unfinished state. Which is what leads people to calling them a mish-mash.

But I'm curious, what do you see as innovative about Elemental? The fact we can modify terrain tiles in a 4x game? Because that's about the only unique/new approach they've demonstrated. The game is a nice tool set, and I suppose that's innovative, but they ostensibly are making a game and not a tool set. So what does it do, as a game, that really innovates?

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Quoting Nenjin,

reply 124

I get a sense of purpose from their mechanics, but they're all in a very basic, unfinished state. Which is what leads people to calling them a mish-mash.

But I'm curious, what do you see as innovative about Elemental? The fact we can modify terrain tiles in a 4x game? Because that's about the only unique/new approach they've demonstrated. The game is a nice tool set, and I suppose that's innovative, but they ostensibly are making a game and not a tool set. So what does it do, as a game, that really innovates?

Like I said, Elemental took a number of (arguably random) game design elements and put them together in a fantasy TBS game. You mentioned the dynamic terrain, which I suspect they planned to do much more with (spells blowing off the sides of mountains, etc). There's also unit customization, squad-type units with variable numbers of "soldiers", instead of abstracting everything out, as typical. The dynasty system where you can "farm" kids as champions and even use them as bargaining chips in diplomacy. Cities that are built up according to terrain, so players can "snake" cities around resources and block parts of the continent by expanding their cities a certain way.

Honestly, there's lots of stuff that hasn't been done this way or in this genre. Some of it works and some of it is random and will probably be taken out, but just putting it in was taking a huge risk, in this industry environment. Taking risks with content is the heart and soul of innovation, and it irks me to see risk-taking by developers discouraged in this manner by the gaming press.

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