[.804][Feedback]Brutally Honest Feedback: Magic and beta 2b

Quoting RentheUnclean,

There is a logic gap with Shards and magic specialization. Unless you are going to guarantee a shard of the chosen magic type being in proximity to a sovereign, its a crap shoot when you are choosing your magical specializations.

Ideas

1. Allow magical mastery to be choosen AFTER finding a shard (ie. start with 3 generic slots to be choosen later). Could create suspense as you try to decide if you commit a slot to the first shard you find or hold off and hope for another shard around the corner.

2. Make mastery important but not necessary for high level spells (X percent bonus for those types of spells), still a gamble if choosen at start.

3. Make shards generic but with flavors (need 1 shard for a spell, but a fire shard cuts fire spell costs by x)

As far as the current spells, its unclear what the costs are in the pop up (I see a shard, something like a time cost, a magic point cost, and something? else).

Unclear why once you cast a spell you can't cast it again, is there a timer or something?

Ren

I disagree. I think I like selecting the schools at the beginning. Sure its a crap shoot, but only for your first city. After that those shards become a serious strategic points as they should be. I believe shards=oil. Wars should be fought over them. They should be one of the most important resources that makes the whole magic branch worthwhile. In one of my games I specifically went to war just so I could capture a fire shard which was my specialty. Doesn't that make for more interesting and dynamic diplomacy and game play? I agree with Spicy Mike in that the most powerful "Armageddon" type spells should be ones that require shards and a specialization.

As for global spells and city enchantment spells I do like the idea of maintaining those spells at the cost of research. Perhaps city enchantment spells be buffed up but require a certain amount spell points per turn. This would be an interesting mechanic.However a mana regen penalty would also make for an interesting mechanic but I belive city enchanments would need to be more powerful to justify that. Plus, one research point in the beginning of the game is cool, but late game that is just a drop in a bucket. Perhaps Brilliance add a percentage gain instead of a point.

Brilliance: Costs x mana per turn for 15% increase in research.

Summoned Unit: Costs x mana points per turn for x unit.

The benefit of percentages is that they are just as powerful in the beginning of the game as they are in the late game. That's something CivIV nailed.

Also with summoned units. I think a spell point or mana penalty per turn is more appropriate than your precious essence. Essence could be used for only the very large summoned , balrog type, creatures that you would build an army around. Or perhaps a couple points for imbuing a hero with essence so he can become a spell caster too. But essence is definitely broken but I think this thread has done a pretty good job of addressing some solutions.

I believe that letting intelligence and wisdom play a larger roll is vital.

Essence: Should either lower the costs to use, or raise the amount you can get per level.

Max Mana: I like essence controlling your mana though. Perhaps it should be:

Max Mana= [Essence*2] + [Intelligence+Wisdom]/2

This way essence still plays the largest roll. And it is a serious decision to part with it to restore land or imbue a character, but, a powerful mage with alot of wisdom and intelligence can conter act that to a degree with wisdom and intelligence. A warrior character would truly be losing his magic with the more he spent his essence, thus not being powerful at magic. As it should be.

Intelligence: Perhaps instead of affect the spell power, it would affect the spell cost. This way it could impact summoned units too and act in opposite of wisdom. So a character with 15 intel fireball would cost 5 mana but with only 5 intel, it would cost 15 mana. Something like that.

Wisdom: This should have to do with all the regen, I think it should affect not the max spell points, that should be done by cities, but be a multiplier to how fast you gain them. It should also control mana regen pretty heavily.

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Quoting Blaze of Glory,

reply 49

Personally, I have a problem with a the pigeon holing that usually goes on in games. Why is it life magic and death magic = good and bad?

Because it's an obvious setup. Death is a bad thing and Life is a good thing. Death magic tends to only have to ability to kill, enslave souls, and trap people in a state of undead. All of these things most people would view as bad. While Life magic tends to mostly heal, rejuvenate, and revive living things. Things which most people consider to be good.

Honestly I find it very hard to see life magic as anything but good. I mean even if you try to think of it's use to say keep workers working longer and harder it shows a bit of caring on the part of their leaders. I mean they care enough to ensure the work force is at it's opimal best so it's like a fantasy version of a company health care plan. I mean sure you could find some harsher conditions where it might be employed but it's very nature implies they want to keep the person in good health.

It kinda comes back to the old Carrot vs Stick arguement. People tend to view those who use threat and punishment as evil and those who use reward and kindness as good. Life magic just tends to lend it self very highly to reward and kindness while on the flip side death magic tends to lend itself more towards punishment or threat of pain/death.

Quoting Blaze of Glory,

reply 49

So please do not narrow spells into good or evil. My thought is everyone should be able to learn from any book. How you use the knowledge is the key.

That said, certain spells could be viewed as "unacceptable" just like the arguements for/against cloning and nukes. It isn't that you can't learn them, it is that you will take a diplomatic hit from those that view it as evil. Using it would be like using nukes.

I do recall some fantasy realms where Death wasn't exactly considered evil. But it was still considered unacceptable to practice. Though just like cloning and nukes that made it somewhat evil since so many people considered it a bad thing.

But again it goes back to the view of the people using it. It's not that the magic themselves are not bad but they fit the mindset of the people using it. Those seeking to help others though medicine and the healing arts are likely to turn to whatever tool will help them the most, thus they use life magic.

Those seeking powering with no care for the lives of others turn to death magic. For example why bother with an army or work force of people who need caring for when you could summon an army or work force of undead that never tire and don't need caring for. So what if you have to bind tons of souls to eternal agony to do it.

The good/bad comes out of the right tool for the right job. The society picks which one can best meet it's objectives and they just so happen to fall in the same place repeatedly.

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Current Essence = max mana. This is terrible.

I agree here, your mana could become something like your wisdom + level, even for more combat oriented Sov's you could have enough to fire of a stat, armor or atk buff, or maybe a dispel or debuff to even things up before you put the knuckles to em.

For me current essence = fun points, things that are the most fun should cost a little. I really like the fact that they are finite, I think its a strong game/strategic element that they stay that way, there just needs to be a little bigger pool available. The 'almost fun' stuff like your familiar and the minor summons' things should not need any essence. Founding your kindom or empire, sure take a few. Pulling that ultra emergency fertile farm out of your keister should be a big deal too, so take another one. That mac daddy golem, that is giving hell to gilden, was worth the essence though. So was the couple that that foul deamon took to bind into your service for the next hundred turns. It was also awesome to peel off a half dozen for boosting that slacker mage a bit, he's really opened up my plate some and I can focus my efforts on that encroaching empire finally... Oh yeah, that volcano! maybe i'll part with another one or two. Maybe there are even enchantments to be cast that opperate in your influence area (kind of like AOW) most certainly worth a point. Finding the right number for essence would be the trick. Start with 15 get one a level and one more point for your fancy, so potentially 2 a level. At level 30 you could potentially have 75 essence which would be quite alot of fun stuff to do in a long game.

Stacking Enchantments. Ugh... really?

I had some fun with this, but I figure that will be corrected with slots or something like you mentioned. I would really like to see all that stuff compiled on the town page, when you hit that big button in the middle, and maybe keep the town map graphic indicating yes indeed there is something in effect.

Summoning upkeep. Costs .2 gildars a turn...

I'm not too worried about this, maybe my imp took a liking to some of the brothel ladies and needs a few coins to keep his morale up. Then of course i might just cook it up and try to summon one with less expensive tastes.

I like not having a summoning cap. The timer on those spells works well I felt. It will be interesting to see it operating with the other tech trees going.

Sovereign specific spells. A good balance will be needed.

Some spells should indeed be a bit more special. But I think certain powerful things should be available to the champion the was recently imbued.

Spell organization. Yikes

A big book with tabs for school (air, fire, earth, water...) or class (summoning, unit, global, combat..) would be nice. I like to imagine my 85lb tomb of hell on earth.

Spell quantity. Need more.

Aye! those second edition D&D compendiums are fun to read! Damn my wife is right, I am a nerd.

Spell cost.

I dont mind needing the shards, Maybe a high lvl tech/spell could enable the ability to move it to a city, for an essence, or something like that.

Spell Learning sequence.

I thought gaining access and/or discovering lost spell scrolls or spell books via technology was fun. Need to add more of those. Queing some up as mentioned is a good idea. Even though I want many spells I like the feeling of them not coming too easily though.

Peace

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Some thoughts on spells, relative power, and sundry other related tidbits.

1. Spells come in a variety of flavors, which I will refer to henceforth as Schools. All spells in a School should share a certain focus. The easiest to think about are the Elemental Schools of Fire, Earth, Water and Air. We also know that the Kingdoms of the Race of Man will have Life, and the Empires of the Races of the Fallen will have Ruin. The guiding principle here should be KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Lets not go overboard on having too many Schools.

Arcane (general)
Fire
Earth
Water
Air
Life (Kingdoms, Race of Man)
Ruin (Empires, Races of the Fallen)

2. Spells also have a variety of uses. Lets call these categories. Certain types of related spells can be lumped together in a Book. Such books can be researched through the Magic Tech tree, or as rewards throughout the world (item cache or quest rewards). The reward should be commensurate with the risk to obtain it, though. (Summoning, as an example, opens up

2a. Scrolls could be obtained as a reward, that gives a single spell. The rarity of the spell should be balanced to the difficulty of the effort to obtain it.

3. Some spells should also be part of a sequence. For example, you must learn Firebolt before you can learn Fireball, and perhaps then you can learn Meteor.

Each and every spell should fit into a simple matrix of columns (School) and rows (Category).

Organizational thoughts:

Master of Magic had a good breakdown of spells, by Realm (Arcane, Chaos, Death, Life, Nature, Sorcery), and also by Category (Creature Summoning, City Enchantment, Creature Enchantment, Global Enchantment, Combat, Special). Spells were further defined by being usable only in combat or outside of combat. Some effects (summons or enchants) would last only for the duration of combat, while others would be persistent. Some spells would cause a permanent effect for a one-time cost, such as Wall of Stone (City Enchantment, creates City Walls), while others would require a per-turn upkeep cost of magical power. MoM also has 214 spells, if I counted correctly, and they are balanced.

[Weakness] Currently, the interface of what spells you know, and what is available to be learned, is very poor.

[Suggestion]

Having the spells arranged in a Book:Function matrix would be both quick and expandable. So across the top you would have something like Favorite, Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Summoning, Ruin. Upon selecting any of those top tabs, the side tabs would appear and have categorical fields based on the primary selector. I.E. Selecting Air, would bring up sidetabs like Direct, Area, Combat persistent, Combat buff, Enchantment, World and such. Favorite Tab would allow you to make a custom quick list for rapid spanking action

As VermillionChaos said, tabs for each Book, with side-tabs for each category of spell. Also, it would help to have some easy visuals, such as corner icons that show required Shards to power the spells, or if Essence is needed. Personally, I think I would prefer to have a written out spell description, instead of simply an icon. Tabs & side-tabs would make it easy to winnow out the spells you want to look at. I also think two other useful side-tabs would be for 'Available' and 'Unavailable' (potentialy available) spells.

EDIT: I think there should be a distinction between general spells (Arcane), and faction schools (Life, Ruin). The Arcane school should have every generic spell that is required to play the game, or to balance the playing field. Some examples that leap to mind are the Revive Land and Protection from X spells.

Learning New Spells:

[Weakness] Currently, spells are learned when you accumulate enough Spell Points, and remember to open up the book and learn one. Unlike building new structures in a city, there is no way to queue up learning new spells, and the 'visual notification' (the bar in the lower left) of how many spell points you have is easy to overlook.

[Suggestion] Personally, I would rather be able to queue up spell learning, in a manner similar to building new structures in a city, with Spell Points going into that research. Instead of researching all kinds of Magic techs until you had a max cap of 200 Spell Points and then hoarding Spell Points until you actually had 200, your cities and Loremasters would be pumping those Spell Points into 'researching' the Volcano Spell.

Spell Points:

[Weakness] Currently, Spell Points have only one use - currency to 'buy' new spells. Unlike gildar, you can't keep stockpiling all you want - there is a hard cap on the maximum Spell Points you can have. Every turn past filling your SP's to the max is a waste of magic.

[Suggestion] Spell Points should have multiple uses.

Research points going towards learning a new spell.
Upkeep costs to maintain enchantments (global, city or unit).
Costs to cast some spells.

Casting:

The current cost of casting a spell is a mix of Mana, Essence, and Shards.

[Weakness] Essence is hard to come by. Max mana is based on Essence. Shards are limited in the world.

[Suggestion]

Essence: As it has been talked about, Essence should not be permanently lowered by anything. Any Essence used to power a spell should be regained, with limitations. Perhaps limited to a city, or just friendly territory. Maybe some structures or talents can help it regenerate faster. But it should never be a permanent loss.
Mana: Max mana should not be tied to your max Essence. The current Magic techs that boost your max Spell Points could instead be used to boost your max mana. Also, tie the max mana to a stat, so that when you level up and boost that stat, you also boost your max mana. Mana should be regained in a similar way as hit points are.
Shards : Shards currently are only used in casting some spells. Shards are simply an on/off resource - either you control it, or you don't. It does not build up a quantity of usable resources, such as the various Building Materials. Perhaps control of a Shard Shrine should give you resources per turn, like the Workshop does. If you lose control of that Shrine, you might still have a quantity of Shards to use in spell casting, until you run out. Or they could be used in trades. Spell costs would have to be balanced, of course.

Bleh. It's midnight, I'm going to bed.

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There are some really great ideas in this thread a portion of which are reflected below; however, fundementally I don't think we've arrived yet at some solid and agreed upon definitions of some game variables that would ultimately drive a fun and robust magic mechanic. Based on what I've read, and my own thoughts, I opine the following:

Essence: The "unique lifeforce" of the Sovereign-- a distinguishing characteristic that separates this character from nearly all others and thereby allows the MOST POWERFUL magic abilities.

Intelligence: The effectiveness by which you manage magic. Different from the efficiency by which you manage magic.

Wisdom: The efficiency by which you manage magic. Different from the effectiveness by which you manage magic.

Mana: The foundational magic energy required to cast all spells. Recharges over time based upon other variables.

Spell Points: The ability to research/acquire spells efficiently. Recharges over time based upon other variables.

Magic Shard: A critical strategic locale that provides access to powerful magics not otherwise available (except through other exceptional means-- special study, special quest book, etc.).

I don't want to get into formulas, but would like to provide concepts as to how I see these variables working in a magic game mechanic.

1) The most powerful world altering spells require large mana expense, essence loss and magic shard(s). Only the most dramatic events should "burn" Essence (imbue NPC, escape death, found 1st settlement, etc.).

2) Spells can be researched to higher levels dependent upon one's Intelligence score (e.g. a 10th level fireball versus an 8th level fireball). Spells with "save" capabilities have reduced save percentages for Sovereigns with higher Intelligence.

3) Intelligence has some impact on Spell Points, either total and/or SP regeneration rate.

4) Wisdom has an impact on the Mana Cost required to cast a spell-- the higher the Wisdom, the lower the individual casting cost. Wisdom has an impact on the mana regeneration rate. Some mathematical function of Wisdom and Essence results in your TOTAL mana pool. Ultimately, if you lose Essence, you reduce the mana pool maximum but not the rate by which you recharge (which is a function of Wisdom).

Soverign DEATH avoidance should be loss of 1 Essence AND loss of ONE LEVEL (and the respective decrease in one of the Sovereign's characteristics).

Finally, and not yet discussed in detail, your characters'and creatures' abilities to SAVE against magic influence can be linked to various characteristics such as: High Constitution/Strength = improved saves versus damaging spells, High Intelligence/Wisdom = improved saves versus Illusion/Mind Altering spells.

I think this kind of framework is a potentially interesting start for a robust Magic System that involves the numerous variables now in play in E:WoM. It will, however, require re-balancing as I envision a lot more "mana" available to cast spells. The 2B spell system was so disjointed I thought it was a bug that most of my spells were unavailable, not realizing mana equated to current Essence.

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Soverign DEATH avoidance should be loss of 1 Essence AND loss of ONE LEVEL (and the respective increase in one of the Sovereign's characteristics).

are you sure it is increase?

Having to loss 1 essence and one level (with an associated characteristic) is more harsh than the current setup. I would prefer the loss of 1 essence and one level (with a possible level 0 to gain easily XP). That way you will have an easier way to regain essence than the current setup, especially if there are other ways to gain XP than being directly involved in combat.

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Spicy Mike in reply #54 hit everything I was going to post about this morning and he had some great suggestions!

1. Spells come in a variety of flavors, which I will refer to henceforth as Schools. All spells in a School should share a certain focus.

2. Spells also have a variety of uses. Lets call these categories. Certain types of related spells can be lumped together in a Book.

I think this is an excellent breakdown of how the magic system should be broken down and addressed, but instead of rehashing everything Spicy Mike said I'll throw in my own two cents.

Sovereign Creation and Schools

I think one should have to choose the school(s) they want at character creation. As one poster pointed out, this adds some tension and challenge to your game as you try to gain control of (and go to war if necessary) over the differing shards. It, in my mind, creates an interesting and fun game dynamic as the player searches for resources that are necessary. However, I also concede, as many posters have said, this can pigeon-hole your character into ineffectiveness. I only think that ineffectiveness has to last as long as the current magic system lasts, and this will help me segway into my next suggestion.

Schools of magic and their shards

In the current 2-b build, most of the spells require the corresponding shard to use them (ala, firebolt requires a fire shard to use). This system I believe needs to be changed and enhanced to allow more accessibility to spells and fun. As I mentioned before, I think one should have to chose the school(s) of magic they want access to at character creation, but I do not think every spell in that school should require the corresponding shard.

So for example, in the system I'm proposing I create a character that has access to the fire school of magic, and then I research the book of combat magic. That, in my spell book, gives me access too the most basic of fire offensive spells like firebolt. However, because it is such a low-tired magical ability it doesn't require the shard to use it. Pushing my example a little bit further, because I chose the low-tired spell "firebolt," I now have access too the next tired offensive spell "fireball," which also does not require a shard to use. However, the next spell available after getting "fireball" is "meteor" which DOES need a shard to be cast (as does every subsequent spell following meteor). This allows one to create a sovereign with access to to the different schools, but doesn't necessarily ruin the game if you can't access a shard. Your sovereign just won't be casting meteors, pillars of fire, or any other high-level magical spell, and it gives the player a strong incentive to gain control of that shard. Another suggestion following this route would be that gaining access to the shard not only gives you access to high-level abilities, but buffs the lower-tired spells you already had access too.

Schools of Magic and Combination

In 2-b, the volcano spell required both an earth shard and a fire shard to cast, which I think is fantastic. I think it would be great at the end of your spell research trees if, upon researching the correct combination of spells you unlocked a "special" tab, allowing for some of the more "uber" spells for late game (this might also help prevent late game stagnation). So for example, you've researched both the "meteor" spell (fire) and the "create mountain" spell (earth), which upon doing so, unlocks the special tab and now you can research the "volcano" spell. You could have any number of combinations going this route like: meteor (fire) + tornado (air) = Rain of Fire. Tornado (air) + Sheets of Rain (Water) = Hurricane. Etc, you get the idea.

Magic and Combat

This is my last comment, but at some point could we have a distinguishing factor as to whether these are strategic spells or tactical spells. In the current build, fireball is the most unfun I have ever had throwing a fireball (you should be proud, Frogboy). Anyway, back on point, in the current build, fireball is a strategic level spell that really doesn't do anything. It only targets a single creature, and does very little damage. I understand that much of that is balancing and will come later, but I'm still left with the question of should spells like fireball be a strategic level spell at all? It strikes me that spells like firebolt and fireball should be tactical level spells (it would be pretty cool to see your sovereign in combat laying waste with balls of fire), but on the strategic map spells like firebolt and fireball just seem. . . useless? Intuitively, it seems to make more sense to have spells like meteor and tornado be both strategic and tactical level spells, but low-level combat spells like firebolt and fireball just doesn't seem to make sense on the strategic map.

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Quoting ModernKnight,

reply 57

Sovereign Creation and Schools

I think one should have to choose the school(s) they want at character creation. As one poster pointed out, this adds some tension and challenge to your game as you try to gain control of (and go to war if necessary) over the differing shards. It, in my mind, creates an interesting and fun game dynamic as the player searches for resources that are necessary. However, I also concede, as many posters have said, this can pigeon-hole your character into ineffectiveness. I only think that ineffectiveness has to last as long as the current magic system lasts, and this will help me segway into my next suggestion.

After some sleep, and coffee, (and while playing another game), I had more thoughts.

The biggest difference between Elemental & Master of Magic is simply this:

In MoM, you are a spellcaster. You sit in your tower, and send minions out to do things. Want to conquer? Build cities to train units, hire mercenaries, and send forth your armies. Want to research? Build up your cities with research-generating structures, and hit the books.
In Elemental, you are a Sovereign, and you can choose your own route. Want to conquer? You can be a sword-wielding, camel-punching barbarian warlord, and research Warfare. Want to be a mighty spellcaster? You can set your stats accordingly, and research Magic.

At the bare minimum, there should be two 'valid' styles to gameplay. The mundane, and the magical, centered around researching Warfare and Magic. Civilization, Diplomacy and possibly Adventure technologies should be 'booster' techs.

So, looking at Sovereign Creation, the non-magic using Sovereign has a distinct advantage. Namely, they don't have to spend 3, 6, 9 or 12 points on learning to fight. Weapons and armor are 'discovered' by researching Warfare, and then the items are bought from a Merchant. Those creation points can be spent boosting stats or talents that will benefit them in fighting.

Mages, on the other hand, have to spend those points to learn schools of magic, instead of boosting stats or talents that would help them fight. Then, they have to acquire Spell Points & learn spells. They are at a definite disadvantage from the start, in two ways - points spent at Sovereign Creation, and by the fact that gildar have no max cap, while Spell Points do.

[Suggestion] Rework how Schools of Magic are learned, using Magic research instead of buying them at Sovereign creation.

As an example, the Magic Technology tree might look like this:

Channelliing

Arcane Research
- Fire Magic Understanding
  1. Fire Shard Understanding
    - Fire Shard Mastery
  2. Fire Magic Mastery
    - Fire Magic Dominance

However, the research only makes a Book of Magic available. Once spells are available, they still have to be learned (researched) with Spell Points. (Preferably in a 'research' type manner, as I mentioned in my earlier post.)

So, if you want to be a Mage, you have to research Magic, at the cost of researching other techs. Just as a Warlord has to divide their research between Warfare and other techs.

Also, the relative 'power' of spells can be divided up into multiple 'tiers'. Low tier spells should not require shards to use. Higher power spells would require more resources.

And finally on that type of idea... If you want to be a specialize in a type of magic, then you have to use your research to do it. You can work to be a mighty Fire Mage, knowing every Fire spell there is - but you won't have the time or resources to research many other spells. Or, you can be a mage-of-all-trades, dabbling in multiple Schools of magic.

Or you can ignore magic entirely and focus on Warfare.

Plus, it would allow you to choose your Schools based on where you are in the world map. Imagine playing an Island map, and the only shard of the school of magic you bought at Sov Creation is way across the map, out of reach for over half of the game.

Quoting ModernKnight,

reply 57

Schools of magic and their shards

So for example, in the system I'm proposing I create a character that has access to the fire school of magic, and then I research the book of combat magic. That, in my spell book, gives me access too the most basic of fire offensive spells like firebolt. However, because it is such a low-tired magical ability it doesn't require the shard to use it. Pushing my example a little bit further, because I chose the low-tired spell "firebolt," I now have access too the next tired offensive spell "fireball," which also does not require a shard to use. However, the next spell available after getting "fireball" is "meteor" which DOES need a shard to be cast (as does every subsequent spell following meteor). This allows one to create a sovereign with access to to the different schools, but doesn't necessarily ruin the game if you can't access a shard. Your sovereign just won't be casting meteors, pillars of fire, or any other high-level magical spell, and it gives the player a strong incentive to gain control of that shard. Another suggestion following this route would be that gaining access to the shard not only gives you access to high-level abilities, but buffs the lower-tired spells you already had access too.

I like the idea of having to research a 'use' of magic. Researching Combat Magic gives you attack spells. Researching Summoning gives you summons, etc, etc.

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Going back and doing some work with the magic today. I was left feeling like I had eaten a greasy sandwich.

Sure the idea of summoning allies to work with me. Cool.

Pretty much every other spell in there, kinda like "Feh?"

That and I kept getting reminded of playing a game from the late 80's early 90's as far as simplicity, and lack of depth within the spells.

That and the whole process is confusing, learning spells, with spell points, is not intuitive, but you know that. It should prompt the player to learn new spells. Constantly, or let us auto-queue several to learn in a row.

As far as actually casting them. I kept coming back to something that I think is an incredible step backwards.

Essence loss. Now, I get the idea of imbuing a champion. Giving a portion of power. But that's about the only time it makes any sense to me to lose Essence.

The fact that Mana is equal to your Essence for spell purposes for what you can cast, isn't a bad idea. But again, the whole cost benefit ratio just feels completely wrong.

To my mind, essence if it remains, should only EVER be used for spell power caps, and for powering the devastating spells, like Volcano, or other things like that. And even then, I feel that eventually the Sovereign should actually recover those essence points, after a certain number of turns, like Volcano after 200 turns, you get your essence point spent.. etc.

And this would help replicate the idea of Magic is returning to the world. Especially as you've noted the game is too barren and depressing and bland. Same concept with spells, they are too simplistic, and general.

Many of the core gamers of this style of gameplay will have played D&D (Many editions), and probably WoW, and certainly other games, or mods of games. Where you can really present this game in multiple fashions.

But spells, really, truly need some serious work. And it's got to be fun. And make the player look forward to new spells. and to feel like their sovereign isn't some chump who can't kill a spider.

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I have an idea that may help with both the essence loss and shard problems:

Elemental Mastery

Cost: 5 Essence

Effect: Select any element that your sovereign has, all spells of that element cost 5 less mana and your sovereign now counts as a shard of the selected element. This spell can cast as many times as you wish. You may select a different element each time or one you have already selected.

This could be a spell all sovereigns start with.

There could also be a more general spell:

Arcane Mastery

Cost: 5 Essence

Effect: Increase your maximum mana by 10.

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Essence loss for spellcasting is awful. It makes the game unplayable as it is -- at least with Military and City building research locked down.

I think the best way to fix it is to have spells like Create Garden cause a temporary Essence loss. For example, if you have 10 Essence and cast Create Garden, you drop down to 7 Essence, but then you regain 0.1 Essence per turn until you're back to 10. Greening up the landscape should knock the wind out of you, but it shouldn't be a permanent loss. Research advancements could increase the speed at which you regain Essence later in the game.

Regarding upkeep, I think Master of Magic had a great system where enchantments and summoned creatures had a mana (a.k.a. spell points) upkeep. You could run in the red for a while, but when your reserves were used up, enchantments started dropping and summoned creatures started disappearing.

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CyrusNunn I think you have the right idea, essence should represent a limitation so that we can not cast some massively overpowered spell every turn, but it should never be able to drop so low that our ability to cast spells is crippled. I still think that questing should restore essence. A good character might recover essence through good actions, an evil one through evil actions.

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sorry for the double post!

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I agree with CyrusNunn and others that Essence loss makes the game interesting but doesn't work in its current state. Losing essence and subsequently maximum mana temporarily after casting major world-altering spells makes the game more interesting. It makes sense that such massive magic would "wear out" a spell caster. There is a sense of sacrifice involved and it creates the need for a cost-benefit analysis before casting major spells.

Perhaps this could be balanced for combat sov's in having the large spells such as revive the land also cause them fatigue which slows their attack or decreases their defense temporarily as casting the spell wears the caster out.

It is vital that the essence/fatigue recovers on its own at a reasonable rate, and doesn't effect or interrupt character leveling.

It does not make sense to have to lose essence for casting minor combat spells etc. Not to mention that it severely limits spell casting sov's.

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Agree - I'd think that if I used my lifeforce to heal somebody, I'd be left feeling weak and tired and in need of a good, long sleep, but it wouldn't be a permanent thing. Regaining .1 per turn would be good, but what about speeding it up if the Sov is resting at an inn or in a city, or slowing it down if he is engaging in fighting, spellcasting, resting in a city or inn with his queen, etc...? (j/k about the queen bit)

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I think it is a great idea to have certain buildings/locations or other systems that could effectively speed up essence recovery. This wouldn't really greatly effect the issue of trade offs between costs and benefits since going to a city to recover essence faster is a trade-off in itself.

The important thing in balancing is making sure that the essence hit isn't too great to begin with and recovers at a reasonable rate so that the magic or combat sov is a viable choice.

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"On the other hand have Essence = Max Mana isn't really going over that well. So how about merging the two to determine max mana? Wisdom * Essence = Max Mana. This way wisdom becomes a lot more important since it's a multiplier for you Max Mana. It also means Essence use has a little more leeway in terms of loss. Since players will tend to have a large Max Mana pool it will be more about regen on how much they can cast.

I mean the base starting of 10 Wis & 10 Essence will give you 100 Mana compared to the starting 10 now. And because it's a multiplier boosting can really start to grow like say you start with 15 Wis & 10 Ess then you have a whole 50 more mana at start. With an increase of 5 Essence you will be at 225 Max Mana compared to say the default start of 10W & 10E which will only be at 150 by that point."

@Pyro

I like this thought process. I would only add that Mana levels for Champions would need to be recalculated per turn so that if a SoV infuses a Champion, they would only have a finite supply. Their Max. level would be current (Wis*Essence infused), with a decreasing Mana pool as they burned off that Essence pool.

I also think that any Champion that was infusable would be EXEMPTED from any Essence regen method, but could be re-infused. That way the onus would be put back on the SOV and his SLOWLY regenable supply of Essence and how best to disperse it amongst his Champions.

As for the Spell Book dilemma? Do away with it in the SoV Build selection altogether and simply have Magic Research be the method of choice after finding a Shard, with one Research( 3 turns) open up the Tree for all Shards types to the player from the outset.

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Re: MoM Skill

One benefit of a "Skill" system is that it allows you to have more control over spellcasting limits. "Skill" limits how much Mana you can expend in one turn, your Mana regeneration limits your long term Mana output (for "large" time frames, MaxMana + RegeneratedMana is dominated by RegeneratedMana), and your maximum Mana limits your short term Mana output (for "small time frames, MaxMana + RegeneratedMana is dominated by MaxMana). This allows you to prevent Sovereigns from constantly throwing their full might around, but still allow them to go all out *for a limited period of time* when necessary. To me, being able to occasionally use a large number of spells in a small period of time helps a lot with the feeling of being a "powerful channeler" (as opposed to being limited to a smaller number of spells at certain intervals).

By the way, how will spells end up working in Tactical Combat? I'm getting the impression that Sovereigns currently only have enough Mana for a relatively small number of spells; how will this work in a Tactical Combat lasting a larger number of turns? Will spell-casting Sovereigns only be able to throw a few spells, and then that's it? It's back to using melee weapons?

In MoM, spell casting heroes had a ranged magical attack to fall back on once they'd used up their allotted Mana. This allowed them to continue "being magic themed" even after their Mana was gone. Personally, I'd like it if it would be possible to do something similar in Elemental (as opposed to having to fall back on melee weapons all the time, regardless of what "theme" you want your Sovereign to have). Maybe some basic attack spells without any Mana cost could be added? Since they'd have range, they should probably do less damage than ("good") melee weapons to compensate (attributes like Strength/Intelligence would presumably adjust this, so a character with high Int / low Str would probably do more damage with basic spells than with a good sword).

I like the idea of persistent enchantments costing *something* (for instance Spell Points). This means that there's a tradeoff to make - you can have a lot of enchantments, but it'll cost you. If there's no continuing "cost", such as if you have a certain number of "enchantment slots", then only the initial casting cost has to be considered. In the long term, this usually means that you'll want to use your maximum number of enhancements, and (if you have "slots") also means that you can't push past this limit.

You could combine the two aspects I suppose - have a certain number of slots for which there would be no spell upkeep, but if you want to push past this it'll cost you something (like Spell Points). This would add some flexibility, and allow you to use as many enchantments as you wish. At a cost.

edit: Hmm. Any idea what's breaking this post? Is it something in the post itself, or something external (I notice that the post below it is affected too)?

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Another thought related to Magic research. All it gives us is the ability to learn new spells, boost our max Spell Points, or build structures that allow us to boost some magic-related stats.

If researching Warfare gives us the ability to design & train new military units (that cost gildar, materials and/or iron to build), why do we not get that benefit from researching Magic? I want to be able to design a Healer when I get the research that gives the Monastery/Abbey (that costs gildar, materials & spell points to train) that can cast Heal/Mass Heal on units. I want the Tower of Sorcery to allow me to design & build Sorcerers, who unleash magical blasts onto foes. Or Summoners, who bring forth minions to do battle with their foes!

Currently, in Beta 2B, we gain no ability to train new NPC units. The only new units are directly summoned from our PC, the Sovereign. What are all those slackers in the Tower of Sorcery doing? Playing Magic: The Gathering?

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In MoM, spell casting heroes had a ranged magical attack to fall back on once they'd used up their allotted Mana. This allowed them to continue "being magic themed" even after their Mana was gone. Personally, I'd like it if it would be possible to do something similar in Elemental (as opposed to having to fall back on melee weapons all the time, regardless of what "theme" you want your Sovereign to have). Maybe some basic attack spells without any Mana cost could be added?

Alternatively, there could be staff weapons that do ranged bolt attacks. A benefit of having separate spells would however be that you'd have greater choice over what type (fire, cold, ...) of attack to use, and you could even alternate between them more easily. There could still be staff weapons, but they could give bonuses to the free attacks rather than define them.

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No clue stargazer, think it may have to do with display lenght. Wordy thread :}

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Pyro - I was thinking of this exact (or slight variation) solution. A max mana = wisdom * essence is a really, really great idea.

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Vermillion et al - Some REALLY great ideas already in this thread.

Here are a few more I had posted in Brad's Sunday Morning Thoughts thread pertaining to Magic/Spell Research:

Spells:

I have to confess that one of my least favorite parts of the game thus far has been the spell system. How it all functions in conjunction with a sovereign's mana/essence and int/wisdom stats seems like something of a kludge at the moment. I have been more than a little confused by what I've seen in the betas.

Agreed a queuing system is desperately needed, but more than just this, here are some items/ideas that I personally would like to see handled more elegantly:

Spell Research - much better explanation of what a spell tech gives you. I just have no idea whether "Channeling" or "Summoning" or "Spell books" are what I need/want from what I see.
Some way to delineate when a spell is going to permanently lower essence (max mana) on the spell book/research tab. The "Requirements" area of a spell makes no such distinction presently. The essence cost can be pretty vital to decision making IMO when figuring which spell to learn next. At the moment, you can only see this information once you've learned the spell (unless I'm missing something) and even then took me several games before I was checking that routinely before casting.
EDIT: I am confused by a the spell point cap presently. Aside from being contrived mechanism to limit what spells can be learned, I feel one (or more) of the following would be a better alternative and add to the game's magic fun factor:
1. No cap, spell points accumulate each turn...but better balancing of spells' research point cost. Generally costing many more points to learn spells. With the exception of having a handful of core spells easily accessible from the get-go, I think spells ought to be harder to come by, just not limited to a nebulous cap.
2. Maybe in conjunction with opening an entire branch of spells once researched in the tech tree, there can be a LEVEL, WIS or INT dependency. For instance, once Summoning has been researched, then Summon Imp can be researched as a level 1 spell. Any caster can cast it (provided they have mana/essence). However, Summon Familiar might be a level 3 spell that only Lvl 3+ casters have access to.
3. Require casters/researchers to be stationed in a city (or specific building) to receive the spell research points on any given turn...or drastically reduce the spell points earned if the lore master is outside a city. This makes it a very strategic decision to include casters with your armies, or keep them sequestered away learning new spells for the kingdom.
4. Instead of once spells are researched for your kingdom being universal (IOW, all casters of your kingdom have access to these spells provided they have the essence/mana to cast), consider allowing each caster to have their own spell book(s) with the capability to trade/learn them from each other (can trade spells similar to items if in same party/city). I think this would make casters even more unique and important, and managing them more critical.
A more tangible way to understand what upping a hero's INT or WIS stats will buy for your heroes magic ability. Does increasing a NPCs wisdom really amount to an increase in contributed spell points each turn?
Additional ways to earn essence rather than just leveling up.

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Also on the subject of spell organization and matrices:

The reason that I though of what is essentially an array first is easy to and remove from in terms of a logical structures:

Easy to add custom books later as all you would be doing is Adding contents to the cells in row A-Z, and then Marking say K as Visible for it to show up in the sovereign OR Champions spellbook.
Easy to Extend on for full featured expansion/patches. So if Brad wants to add Time and space to match life and ruin or chaos and order, he can create the pertinent xml objects and then throw them into the table. No need to edit the UI.
With a form that is essentially a read/pass array you could just as easily set the 'side tabs' as primary, and show all AEs, and then order them by book, as the other way.

Just my spiel, as someone who used to do database stuff I am manic for starting with a solidly ordered frame. Much easier to just extend than to have to rewrite a UI to do it.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Modifiers are better when they are modifiers.

Lets assume that essence remains as described, not the current mechanic, the loose description. It's your ability to use magic.

Most of the complaint, while centering around a solution of "fixing" essence so that it doesn't get reduced, rather self defeating I think, is that essence is too important. Then there are complaints that Int and Wis aren't important enough.

Getting simplistic, if Int is power, and Wis is knowledge, what need is there for essence at all? The answer is none. Essence, while being your magic, is relatively unrelated to your stats that signify your usage of it. If spell points were determined by a percent modification of essence by your wisdom stat, wisdom would be the determining factor in how effective your essence was.

Modifying stats shouldn't add, they should multiply. Essence shouldn't be an end result, but a base for your stats to alter.

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