Ooze and Poisoned Blood Discussion » Forum Post by Ptarth

Re:Spooky post #6 I believe the confusion lies within a semantic problem with LO and I. However, to my recollection death potions are available to your allies for a few seconds before they are available to your enemies.

What do you mean by LO and I?

Yeah, I read about the death potion being available to allies sooner in your thread. I never noticed this, but then again, I would have to run the game on two computers at the same time to really notice it. Are you sure this is actually happening? Even so, this does not mean, that the poison blood should heal your allies and damage the enemies. After all, this applies do death potions generally and is not made specific for the poison blood, wouldn't you agree?

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re: Spooky__ post #6 & post #26

Re:Spooky post #6 I believe the confusion lies within a semantic problem with LO and I. However, to my recollection death potions are available to your allies for a few seconds before they are available to your enemies.

What do you mean by LO and I?[/quote]

So, it was taken from the discussion Lord Orion (LO) and I (ptarth) were having in the UberFix thread. There were problems with what we were saying and how we were interpreted each other that lead to confusion, and thus to the creation of this thread.

A dropped item is an independent entity, which does not care by whom it gets picked up from or by whom it was dropped. It can be picked up by yourself or an ally just as easily as by an enemy. There is no direct connection at all between the person who dropped the item and the person who picked it up. It's completely independent.

A dropped item isn't exactly as easily interpreted as you suggest. If your ally drops a potion from inventory, what are the odds that an enemy will pick it up. If your ally is competent, it should approach never. This being the case, it is unreasonable to say that dropped items are not independent of circumstances. It is highly likely that a player will happen to stumble across a potion dropped by an enemy (non-death potion).

Likewise, the death effect wherein allies are both given a small early window to pickup the potion and the helpful death effect resulting from the death of an ally. I will make the claim that you are much more likely to pickup an allied death potion in a combat than an enemy would (given a 2v2 or 2v1 that results in a death on your side, and competent play).

Regardless, these are issues that do not relate to the primary goal of the discussion, which is to find a solution to the issues at hand.

[quote who="Spooky__" reply="26" id="2615008"]
... allied advantage for collecting a death potion...

Are you sure this is actually happening?

I'm not sure. I think I remember something to that effect in the code and as an in game effect, I'd have to look it up.

Even so, this does not mean, that the poison blood should heal your allies and damage the enemies. After all, this applies do death potions generally and is not made specific for the poison blood, wouldn't you agree?

I think the issues are completely separate. I'm also trying to stay out of interjecting my opinion into this. I'd like to see some sort of consensus emerge in the thread without my influence.

Edit Note: I've tried to fix up the quotes, but they have turned very odd. I'm going to stop before I really screw them up.

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This being the case, it is unreasonable to say that dropped items are not independent of circumstances.

I didn't mean it like that. I meant, that the item, as an entity in the game, within the game's mechanic and logic, is independent. This is even mirrored in the way GPG chose to fix the Health/Mana drop-and-pick-up exploit.

Regardless, these are issues that do not relate to the primary goal of the discussion, which is to find a solution to the issues at hand.

But the solution depends on how we interpret the game's mechanics. For instance, your interpretation is, that a Poison Blood Potion was likely never intended to hurt allies, due to the fact, that death potions apparently appear earlier for allies than for enemies.

However, my interpretation is, that dropped items are simply independent entities with singular properties that can be picked up by anyone and its properties are applied properly to the unit who picked it up. Plus the early appearance of death potions for allies are simply generally applied to all death potions and is thus also applied to Poisoned Blood Potions of course.

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I guess theres a very slim chance you're not trolling Orion, but just in case:

Quoting LORD-ORION,

reply 24

Except that keeping it in gives you more options. Removing it gives you less options. Why do that?

1) Because it isn't supposed to work this way. Why? I don't know... I'm a programming code illiterate but Ptarth says so, so it is most likely true.

2) Because it isn't fun. Its definitely not fun to play against (and that might be the understatement of the century) and its not even fun to play with IMO. I'm embarrassed every time a UB on my team ends up suiciding... its like "Ehhh... sorry guys... that sucks."

3) It doesn't give you more options. Are you saying people aren't going to be playing with Beast, Ooze, and Sigils anymore if this gets fixed?

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Quoting Spooky__,

reply 28

I meant, that the item, as an entity in the game, within the game's mechanic and logic, is independent. This is even mirrored in the way GPG chose to fix the Health/Mana drop-and-pick-up exploit.

There is at least one counter case: Poisoned Blood Potions store who dropped them. This is necessary to give credit to the Lord Erebus who dropped the potion, for experience, gold, and the onscreen death message.

Let me try again lining up my argument since I am not seeming to come across correctly. This is not providing any new arguments, just reformatting the one already present in the UberFix thread.

Using Poisoned Blood, Lord Erebus can farm himself for gold.
- This is an exploit and not intended.
- This is a bug.
- This is due to insufficient logic development of Poisoned Blood.
Therefore, Poisoned Blood should be re-examined.

Given that the logic developed for Poisoned Blood is incomplete, the logic should be re-examined..
- Excluding Poisoned Blood, no other abilities to harm allies.
- Hence any ability that can do so is probably not meant to.
Hence Poisoned Blood potions should most likely not be able to damage allies.

Death effects are meant to give bonuses to your team, or penalties to your enemies.
- No death effect can negatively impact an ally
Therefore Poisoned blood should most likely not be able to damage allies

Allies have access to potions dropped by death a few seconds earlier than enemies.
- This suggests
  - that the potions should be picked up by your teammate
    - Then the potion should heal
  - is a result of the incomplete logic development of poisoned blood
    - Then the issue should be considered further
  - just inherits normal death drop logic
    - Then the issue should be considered further

Starting the the base assumption that the Death Potion dropped by Poisoned Blood should not harm allies I was left with two choices. Either it benefits them in some fashion or it does nothing. I chose to have them receive the normal benefits of the potion it is described as, as that simplifies things the most. If you see a potion, unless Lord Erebus is on the other team (and has Poisoned Blood), it will do exactly what it says it will.

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If its a huge deal for the suicide to stay in the game, why not just let it grant ASSIST gold/exp? I mean, why the hell shouldn't it?

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# Given that the logic developed for Poisoned Blood is incomplete, the logic should be re-examined..

* Excluding Poisoned Blood, no other abilities to harm allies.
* Hence any ability that can do so is probably not meant to.

# Hence Poisoned Blood potions should most likely not be able to damage allies.

This is not really a strong argument though in my oppinion. It's just as possible that it is intended that Poisoned Blood also harms allies as well as the original owner. So far we have no way of knowing for sure, therefore I think the UberFix mod should refrain from changing this behavior and only fix the exploit in your first point.

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If a poisoned blood potion kills an ally, we have the address the following questisons:

Who gets credit?
Who gets gold?
Who gets experience?
Who gets a kill?

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If a poisoned blood potion kills an ally, we have the address the following questisons:

1. Who gets credit?
2. Who gets gold?
3. Who gets experience?
4. Who gets a kill?

Well, either no one, or an enemy gets an Assist, if he damaged the Demigod sufficiently who died through a Poisoned Blood Potion from an ally.

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Quoting Spooky__,

reply 34

If a poisoned blood potion kills an ally, we have the address the following questisons:

1. Who gets credit?
2. Who gets gold?
3. Who gets experience?
4. Who gets a kill?Well, either no one, or an enemy gets an Assist, if he damaged the Demigod sufficiently who died through a Poisoned Blood Potion from an ally.

And that sounds like a lot of work to be done in editing all of the death and awarding functions.

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Hmmm.... ok if this whole thing, or simply the actual exploit, is a lot easier to fix by making Poisoned Blood heal allies and damage enemies then.. "you have my blessing to do it this way" . At least for the time being .

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Quoting Spooky__,

reply 34

If a poisoned blood potion kills an ally, we have the address the following questisons:

1. Who gets credit?
2. Who gets gold?
3. Who gets experience?
4. Who gets a kill?Well, either no one, or an enemy gets an Assist, if he damaged the Demigod sufficiently who died through a Poisoned Blood Potion from an ally.

You are over-complicating. There is really only 1 bug, and that is in suicide logic. Suicides should give out assists. Suicides should not give out kills. Poison blood on someone else is not a suicide, it is a kill, be it a teammate or enemy.

1) LE gets credit... he killed someone (not a suicide).

2) LE for the kill, and assists should be awarded to whoever qualifies. (again, not a suicide)

3) LE, it's a kill. (again not a suicide)

4) LE should be put on criteria for an assist, he did damage which helped someone die. (again not a suicide)

We can take it up a notch....

There are 2 LEs on 1 team, both with poison blood. A teammate drinks 2 poison blood potions. The first (from LE1) does not kill him. This teammate was then damaged by an enemy Reg. Then a few seconds later he drinks the second poison blood which does kill him (from LE2).
LE1 gets assist
Enemy Reg gets assist
LE2 gets kill

Where it is broken: (how it should work)

Same scenario, except LE2 is the teammate who drinks 2 poison blood potions. The first (from LE1) does not kill him. This teammate was then damaged by an enemy Reg. Then a few seconds later he drinks the second poison blood, which is his own, and this does kill him.

LE1 gets assist
Reg gets assist
LE2 gets suicide, and from this gets nothing except a death counter increment.

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

lol fail. LE2 gets kill.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

I think what ptarth came up with is a logical decision. Boil things down... If erb dies with poisoned blood dies, he drops a potion. This potion helps his teammates by healing and if his enemies pick it up, it hurts them. The logic is simple then regarding assists and kills. Pretty cut and dry. This reasoning, though, does not allow for suicides... that makes "wtf are suicides in the game if next to nothing can trigger them" a semi valid question.

if you want to go the suicide route, then erb drops a potion that hurts everyone period if he has poisoned blood. I'd argue very strongly that the erb on a team should NOT get gold for an assist or kill if his teammate drank one of his potions. I'd allow for that erb to get a suicide if he died by drinking his own potion (which would pay out nothing to the other team). You should not get any benefit from killing your own team. That is idiotic imo. If should function the same way as if I die against an enemy tower and someone on the other team hit me (but not for the kill)... forces of X would get the kill and the guy that helped kill me would get some dough.

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Quoting OMD_Siili,

reply 38

lol fail. LE2 gets kill.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a suicide.

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Quoting OMD_Teseer,

reply 40

Quoting OMD_Siili, reply 38lol fail. LE2 gets kill. Yeah, it wouldn't be a suicide.

I am explaining how it should work, not how it works now.

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

Where it is broken

Oh yeah. Totally.

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wtf are suicides in the game if next to nothing can trigger them

cause GPG was too lazy to actually fix the code?(and make them unnecessary)

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Quoting OMD_Siili,

reply 42

Where it is broken
Oh yeah. Totally.

Sorry if my posts are confusing. I am writing from my perspective in my dialog with ptarth. I can see how it might seem ambiguous if you look at 1 post out of all of them on this topic.

For clarity, my position.

1) Suicide is broken.
Suicide should give out assists when it occurs.

2) Poison Blood is broken,
If LE drinks his own potion, it should cause suicide.

3) Poison Blood should kill teammates, award LE a kill and award appropriate assists to others.

4) Ooze suicide should remain in the game.

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One of the game types (Slaughter?) the winning team is determined by kill count. Should the Lord Erebus be allowed to farm his own teammates for points?

If not, this needs to be reflected in your resolution.

Edit: Fixed game name. Thanks hedgie.

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

oh shnap!

and it's Slaughter

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

1) Suicide is broken.
Suicide should give out assists when it occurs.

completely disagree - suicide indicates that one person commited the act... homicide indicates that a separate party was involved.

2) Poison Blood is broken,
If LE drinks his own potion, it should cause suicide.

under 1 interpretation of the system, yes - it should cause suicide.

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Quoting pacov,

reply 47

1)
completely disagree - suicide indicates that one person commited the act... homicide indicates that a separate party was involved.

you've clearly never heard of assisted suicide then! Sometimes known as voluntary euthanasia

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completely disagree - suicide indicates that one person commited the act... homicide indicates that a separate party was involved.

These semantics don't really matter here. If you kill yourself and someone assisted in doing so (i.e. damaged you before either Ooze or Poisoned Blood finally kills you), you should be "rewarded" with an Assist kill.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

you've clearly never heard of assisted suicide then! Sometimes known as voluntary euthanasia

ah - ya got me there

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