Climber

Join Date 03/2006

+17

Extreme (& Integrated) Customization for Professions, Talents & Weaknesses, Fraction Traits

I've suggested the following in the Talent & Weakness trait:

A Combined slider for talent & weakness for all talents. Instead of having "ugly" as a weakness, use One slider that ranges from "Ugly as hell" to ugly to normal to handsome to "the most Handsome man alive". Let gamer choose the level of +ve and -veness for all traits. I should be able to choose anywhere from being extremely clumsy to extremely agile

To me, Sov Professions, Sov Talents & Weaknesses and Fraction Traits all serve one purpose: provide infinite combination of variations so the player can experience a different game each time.

Won't it be nice to allow the gamer deciding on how "different" this game will be? One way to do it is by the use of "Talent Points (TP)". If you want your Sov to be good at melee fighting, you spend 5 TP. If you want your Sov to be a even better fighting machine, you move the same slider to the extreme right, 15 TP is spent. The developer will need to spend some time to carefully balance the amount of TP needed (or given back). For example, some professions will costs more TP than others.
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You need to spend TP before you are granted any new "Professions, Talents & Weaknesses, Fraction Traits", all of those requires TP and you are allowed to juggle how you spend your TP amongst them. So if you want to play a wacky game that all players have super powers, a lots of TP can be given to all players when the game starts.
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This TP system will allow even further customization, and/or provide some practical effects ingame. For example, a small amount of TP will be rewarded, after a player finished an extremely difficult quest, diplo mission etc. Or your opponent may cast a major spell (requiring essence) that reduce your TP, in turn costing you the lost of a Talent. Or each player will be granted a different amount of starting TP, depending how good/bad his starting position. Or, in some games, weakness like "Ugly" will not give you back 10 TP so there is no reason to pick -ve traits. Or, when your Sov become very old/sick, TP is lost.

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Folcik009

I like the format of this idea.

One question I have is, if TP is granted in-game, might that make the bonuses given by leveling up somewhat redundant or would it be worth it to have two parallel systems of character improvement/progression?

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I hate to disagree with someone with such a sweet avatar, but I actually prefer the "current" system, in which talents and weaknesses are one-shot seperate things. I cannot explain why, but it just feels more RP-ish than Min-Max-ish. I realize that applying your system would possibly allow for much more customization, but it also feels like that customization would matter far less.

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I like your idea, but am hesitant to fully endorse. I am all for customization and making choices that allow for endless replayability. However, you know many people will stick to one method or style. Luckmann, I think the min-max part would be noticable in multiplayer but would be handy for single player as well. From what I understand, the traits, both positive and negative, are there to help with evolving a unique looking/playing Soverign/faction.

My only reason for not endorsing your idea fully, are the comments from both Istari and Luckmann. They could be right. Would like to see how others feel about this also.

The only other comment on this subject that I have is that the talents and weakness seem fairly bland, uniteresting to me..I don't have a solution yet. I just wish the list felt more, fulfilling? I am not as of yet in Beta. So my observations are not defining or necessarily accurate.

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I'd like a slider on "some" of the traits.

For instance, Ugly, Insane, Inefficient, Cowardly, Blunt, Cruel, Intimidating, Natural Leader, Organized. However ... the others are more like "one shot".

I would not like to have a meter to determine how "lucky" I am. or how "Hardy" I am. I feel that certain people would be inclined to go 100% hardy or 100% luck to completely maximize a particular aspect of the game.

I like maximizing a particular aspect of the game to an extent ... although facing a Sovereign with 100 HP in the first round of the game sounds slightly "unfun".

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I dislike sliders. Checkboxs are the way to go. Perhaps some boxes could have secondary extender boxes, but avoiding sliders is always good. Something like, if you choose ugly, you could pick the extender box "So ugly mirrors shatter" for even more points.

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Ah... I've not thought that quite a few of you dislike 'sliders', I should have recalled there was some posts about that.

Anyway, how about instead of Slider, the devs will find some smart way to beautify it, to make it more RPGish? Upon my own reflection of this particular idea, I just want to have as many option (& combinations) as possible. This should make the game rich, provide a lot of replayability. Also I like my Sov (or empire) progress in their 'soft skill'. Tech tree is good, but I think developing one's talent provide a new element to the game. It is more RPGish than traditional 'tech tree'.

The use of TP is a mean to balance so many option (& combinations)

Sliders may not be sexy, but it maybe very practical way to squeeze lots of info in 1 screen. It can be something other than sliders, I am no GUI expert.

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Perhaps have the talents interact with each other? For example, if you take both "insane" and "cruel", you gain the special "expert torturer" bonus.

And its not that i dislike sliders, i just think they suck up too much time for too little benfit, with the attempts to get them just right. Checkboxs are a simple yes/no. If there are enough check boxes then you can really cutomize your char and do it pretty quick.

Although i will admit, i do spend 1-2 hours customizing my new chars in oblivion, so its not like i don't understand that side. I just like checkboxes more.

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The slider does says 'insane" + "cruel" cannot become a special 'expert torturer" bonus. However, is this comboing really fun? I reserve my judgement here.

Checkboxes are fine... only when the number of traits are limited. When the number of traits avaliable, it make much more sense to turn 2 or more traits into a slider; ugliest -> most handsome. Slider is a natural evolution of checkboxes, when the # of traits increases.

300 checkboxes in one screen, or 50 sliders, what would you choose?

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300 cehckboxes. No doubt at all.

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300 checkboxes in one screen, or 50 sliders, what would you choose?

The sliders for me please...

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Hmm this quick reply thingy doesn't like the iPhone very much...

Anyway, I know its a rhetorical comment, but 300 checkboxes or 50 sliders is over-kill no matter what systems is used. The UI has to be something like 20 items (I'm thinking the custom race designer in MoO2 as an example) or people get bored with it.

Here's my idea for a compromise - a slider with 5 ticks. So using appearance as an example:

2 right is godlike beauty, +20% marriage / childbirth rates, +15% prestige. Costs 3TP

1 right is handsome / beautiful (change for diff sexes), +10% MArriage / child birth rate. Costs 1TP

center is normal looks, 0 talent point cost, no bonuses.

1 left is ugly, -10% marriage / child birth rate. +1 TP

2 left is part orc. -20% marriage / child birth, -10% prestige. +3 TP

You do that for appearance, grace (clumsy vs agile), constitution (hardy vs sickly), and a few others to determine the sovereign's basic attributes. Checkboxes are used to showcase special traits, like production bonuses, the spellpoint generation trait, etc. Maybe make it so certain checkboxes are greyed out when a requirement is not met - need handsome or better to be a charismatic recruiter.

This will do a few things - it breaks up sov design so it's not just a list of things to check, it shows what traits are exclusive, and it reduces some of the complexity of sliders.

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hehe... I am not sure if 300 is rhetorical or not. When we have divide 300 by 3 (Professions, Talents & Weaknesses & Fraction Traits") it is about 100 each. Maybe closer to 200 is what we are "hoping"? who knows.

Breniir, the 5-click-slider idea more or less is what my OP suggested. So I agree completely!

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Fraction traits?

In any case, most traits should be simply so exclusive that its a single Checkbox (15-20 for each category, more or less)

while SOME traits can have a 5 tick slider. (5-10 total)

all in all, probably about 40-60 checkboxes and 5 sliders.

maybe 5 additional Sliders if we have things like "how Financially inclined are you" or "how Scholarly are you" or "How Organized are you"

and perhaps organized could go towards certain checkmarks. For instance, you could have Commanding (better troop Organizatoin), Architect (better building costs/prestige), ect. So the higher the "Organized" slider is, the more effective those checkboxes are (or maybe just the boxes give a different or additional trait)

Additionally, having a high Organized trait -> better Commanding and Architect benefits -> Commanding and Architecht become more expensive check boxes. Only if Organized gives its own benefits other than those recieved by Commanding and Architecht, otherwise the expense is in the slider itself (already).

Thinks like Cunning, Tracking, and Fertility can also be included in a 5 tick slider. Some are probably better on a 3 tick slider.

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For professions, a common thought is use checkbox. However, will using a slider be more interesting? Maybe you can be an average (5TP) carpenter, skillful carpenter(7TP), master carpenter (9TP), and legendary carpenter (20TP). My point here is, you can have 1 slider for 1 profession.

My 2nd point is, for most sliders, it will be some kind of deminishing return, but then it will be also balanced/reflected by the lowered marginal TP cost. This is shown as 5,7,9 TP in my example carpenter above.

However, also add 1 extreme option like the 20TP legendary carpenter. What it does is, if you want to be legendary (in profession or other traits) you can. However, your character/empire will be very focus on this ONE legendary talent. Maybe this 20TP talent allow you to build a wooden boat without using wood, make your wooden shield produced almost as tough as metal ones etc e. The most expensive TP option will be something game-changing, some kind of bonus that defy logic.

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