What did Motti do that no one else at the time had done?

IIRC the principles of a standard ARC which is the only thing that I know that Motti used that could be considered questionable had been fully published and publically discussed including being brought to Cari's attention. If I'm not mistaken neither of these statements can be made regarding the "special ARC" that enables the Dread Lords.

As such even if the usage of ARC was questioned at the time then the argument can be made that everyone else had sufficient knowledge to do the same thing. Again that's not an argument that could have been used in this case either.

However now that I happened across the documentation and made note of it within this thread then it *now* is fair because now anyone interested in doing it can do so. This is of course assuming that what I published even works as I haven't bothered to try it out because that's not the style of game in which I'm interested. I've also mentioned it to Motti but I doubt he's interested enough to bother playing the game again. However even if he does then I would submit that would be a good thing.

So unless I'm mistaken and there's some secret Motti used that I don't know about then I see these two things totally differently, but if I am mistaken then please let me know.

I welcome any game Motti would chose to play.  His Evil Twin was an inspiration.  But that is not the issue.

Do I misunderstand or are you now the arbiter of what is fair?  Had you not thought of it, out of bounds?  Pfft.

 

This is not about your "rights", and this is not a courtroom. This is about *why* you're flaming against me, and trolling this thread??? This is why you're using wild-guess, hear-say, hypocratical lies, lies, and more lies to dis-credit me??? Can you explain yourself??? (and without lying, because I have enough of them by now).

Whatever "your bounds" are - since several years you are not an active MV player anymore, according to your own words you have abandoned GalCiv2. Besides, you've not even played a single ZYW in your entire "career", and in this light raises some suspicion about the ligitimacy of your real motives. You're nothing but jealous about my current game, because it took you so long to break the Million, and now here comes a newb like me and doubles that in half a year playing time. This is your real motive, you're going against my game, because your infantile and egocentric mind can't stand the fact that the KzintiEmpire is currently declassing everything that has been played previously.

And this has nothing to do with cheating or an un-even playing field. In fact, you yourself have confessed many times to use an un-even playing field in order to take the benefits from it, things that most will consider *cheating* or unfair game, things you knew from others for many years (and never made public) and you expressed yourself to be willing to use these methods, too.

You know these things I talk about very well. But if you like, I'll take myself the time to point them out within this thread: the decision is yours, as well as you have started this.

You've quoted my posts way too much, and put your infantile ROFL/LOL-copter under it, and that leaves not many ways open to interpret the intents of your posts, other than hostility. Especially when one keeps in mind that you've contacted me previously through PM in order to get some help from me regarding your current game... The truth is, you only wanted to "sound me out", and after I've let you down you've written another message and tried to put pressure on me... which didn't work, thus you started to post here in such disrespective and accusing manner, which is unfounded, by the way.

Lots of stuff you said above is only circumstantial, hear-say, absurd accusations etc etc. What proofs do you actually have about that what did happen?

Still, I am interested why your above posts fill this thread with deceit and disinformation, as your last posts is nothing but evasive.

All info's concerning what you posted above from the wiki was already public since years, and this applies to the info that lead to the NB strat as well. Contrary to what you say this info is even available at your forums at the ToE-site, where you are an administrator with some ~900 posts, and by that couldn't have simply overlooked it.

Although it is NOT sufficient to say that just because something has been posted somewhere in a thread, or hosted on a site, that this guarantees an even-playing field for all MV-players, which your message seems to imply. Essentially *fair* is when all participants do play to the same rules, and this does imply also the most up-to-date version of the game. Point is, the DL ARC glitch can happen to all gamers by accident, and while this is sheer luck you'll be surprised how many times a chaotic factors determines a game. It's beyond all our control and nobody's fault. However, if someone revers to an old and outdated version of the game it'll need a good explanation why an *un*-even playing-field had been chosen. Your thoughts.

I see you wish to continue this discussion. OK, if that's what you want.

I'm sorry I didn't know there was a quote limit. I simply quoted those posts in this thread that discussed the "special ARC" and use of a Dread Lords opponent.

Apparently 2 quotes is "way too much" since I only quoted you twice, GmOOnii twice and KP once. Unless of course you're merely an alternate identity of either GmOOnii or KP in which case it would be more, however I would have no way of knowing that.

Since you brought it up, I'll comment on that.

Yes. I contacted both you *and* KP by PM but not because I wanted help in my current game, but simply because I had questions about the legitimacy of this "special ARC". I specifically contacted you and then KP by PM because I really had no desire to cause you or the Kzinti Empire any possible embarrassment, even though I didn't think the "special ARC" was all *that* big of a deal, or would be sufficient to cause you all that much embarrassment.

Since your response was that it was an "empire secret" and KP chose to essentially ignore my request, I felt free to find out what I could on my own and to publish that here in the thread dedicated to ZYW's since the "special ARC" is pretty much specifically tailored to ZYW.

That is correct. However that doesn't mean that I or anyone else knew about it. I only found it by doing a site specific search of the wiki site for "dread lords" and the only reason I did such a thing was because of it being mentioned here. It was tucked away under the cheat codes section and I had never encountered it until the day that I posted the information here.

You apparently know more about the ToE forums than I do. So much for "empire secrets" eh?

However you are mistaken on three counts. One is I've 852 posts (although I suppose 900 is close enough), secondly I'm a moderator *not* an administrator and thirdly I have *never* seen any discussion of any kind of ARC that uses the Dread Lords as an opponent. It was also a surprise to Motti who did not know how it was done either.

However as a member of the Kzinti Empire that seems to know more about the ToE empire private forums than I as a member do then please by all means point out where this information exists on the ToE forums. I do know that Motti greatly helped you out when you were getting started with all kinds of "empire secret" information, a fact that you have acknowledged in this very thread so perhaps you paid more attention to this than I did.

I assume you mean "revere" as in "to show devoted deferential honor to".

I think I have made my position clear both in PM to you and scattered throughout various threads on these forums. I stayed with DL v1.4x for as long as I was playing DL exclusively simply because I object to having programs on my PC whose sole purpose is the update of another single program that I own. This went for Stardock Central and even more so for Impulse.

Also from what I know DL v1.4x is pretty much identical to DL 1.5 and beyond with the one exception being that in DL v1.4x being bankrupt actually means something and you cannot  purchase buildings, ships and upgrade ships after going beyond -500bc (as you can in DL v1.5 and above *and* in DA of *any* version). If you want to argue anything you'll have to admit that the DL v1.4x version I played is harder than any DL version 1.5 or above.

However when it became clear that Stardock Central was going away I did break down and install Stardock Central so that I could get to the latest versions of the game that I could at the time which are DL v1.5, DA v1.80g and TA v1.96.

That upgrade actually cost me the ability to submit a 960K DL game because after I did the upgrade I uninstalled StardockCentral which, unknown to me, deleted the game serial numbers from my registry. Once I discovered this I restored the serial numbers but the damage was done and this made games started prior to the uninstall of SDC invalid (not cheat flagged, actually unsubmittable).

So anyway the revs I mentioned above, DL v1.5, DA v1.80g and TA v1.96, will be the revs of any future games that I choose to submit. As far as I know DA v1.80g was the standard for a very long time, is very stable and is a perfectly legitimate version of DA to be playing.

---

As I said previously, it's not my choice to continue beating this dead horse, but as I also said before I will respond to anyone's questions or concerns.

...

Mumblefratz,

as long as you put words in my mouth that I never said I will of course correct you. Simply stop that and I will stop, too.

It is true that MottiKhan helped me greatly in some of my games. I've given credit to him when these games were hosted, as I did to DethAdder, JacklV, KP, SS, GmOOnii, Iztok and also, *you*. I will always thank people whenever I play a game whose main strategy is based on others findings.

However, you *threatened* me to make "stuff" available to the public if I wouldn't hand you over the information you seek for your current game. In said PM, you used the word "cheats" 3 times. Your intent to start this conversation was solely to "sound me out", to quote you. When I didn't respond to that, you kept on quoting my posts and making false statements, putting words in my mouth I never said and which I corrected you previously, yet you continuued on your rampage.

Yes, the KzintiEmpire has some secrets, and as we are an still active empire, we wanna see our tactics preserved. You did act the same way in the past, isn't it?

I told you that part of the NB strat is in your ToE-site. It's a forum posts by Neilo (BMF) where he says something like that it has become routine to upgrade ships in debt. It's the last post in one thread to which even unregistered users have access.

I've told you *multiple* times now that the way I play doesn't include buying ships when being in debt. Why do you still post this dis-information ?

Don't wanna stress this subject too much now, but in November 2009 I took myself the time and plunged through most of the GalCiv2 forums. Judging from that, I got the impression that this isn't approved by the community here. However, I could be wrong, maybe I missed some threads. Could you please provide me a link or two were this subject of using an un-even playing field has been debated and found OK?

I'm sorry for that, in my opinion StarDock should make an exception and host this EndGameSave. DL is pretty much the hardest version of all three, this game probably would translate to 1.5mil in DA.... and the efforts you put in this game should be acknowledged in your MV profile.

Finally, it is not my intent to seek a heated debate, but you have to understand that unfounded (dis)-information cannot stand here without correction - to do so would actually be an admittance to their truthfullness; which isn't there. There might have been some misunderstandings included, but on some issues it is actually hard to see "only" a misunderstanding.

In this sense, good luck with your current game.

 

I never claimed you did. It was you that brought up the revision differences and I simply pointed out what the difference was between DL v1.4x and DL v1.5 and above as well as all versions of DA.

I never claimed you personally used this and whether you do or don't is immaterial. It's not dis-information, it's simply the truth about the differences between those versions of the game.

Again I repeat I never claimed you used this feature or not. Nor did I even imply that the feature was intrinsically good or bad. It just is. It's a feature of the game that everyone is free to use or not use at their own choice.

I never questioned your NB start. I never questioned pretty much of any of the things you've brought up here. There is only one thing that I questioned and that was the use of "special ARC" to be able to use the Dread Lords as an opponent. It was you that claimed knowledge of using the Dread Lords as an opponent was available on the ToE site or at least that was what I thought your claim was because as I said my only question was special ARC of DL opponents.

That 's the only topic that I have brought up here and that is the only question that I asked via PM. I think it was a legitimate question. You were certainly within your rights to not give me any information about it. But I was equally within my rights to find out about it myself and publish the answer that was the fruit of my own labor.

I really don't know why you bring up all this other stuff but it was you that brought it up and anything that I said that was not specifically related to special ARC of DL opponents was only in response to something from you.

I'm not sure why my alias is being brought into this, but I'll bite. 

I'm honored if any of my hints were used by Maiden in any of his games.  I've congratulated him on his excellent scores and have never claimed that he did anything untoward, in public or in private.

One thing that we might want to remember is that the Kzinti and Tyranny have always had a friendly rivalry going where we'd take fun jabs at each other.  The operative words here being friendly and fun.  If this degenerates beyond that, I want no part of it.

I've long been a member of both the Tyranny and the Kzinti.  While it's no secret that my loyalty belongs with the Tyranny, I'm still a full member in the Kzinti,  A senator the last time I checked.

If my name is brought into this then I, like Maiden, have the full right to defend myself and will do so.

My top score for the ZYW was simply the DL version played in DA with ARC and more modern strategies added.  I did a DL version of it long before, without ARC, albeit with a much lower score.  Nobody seemed to have a problem with that one, even though it went well into December of Year 0.

Maiden has taken it to a new level and should be encouraged to continue.  I see nobody else stepping up and offering any serious competition to his scores. 

I'm confident in the legitimacy of his games. 

Actually I stand correctly. I also used Motti's name in reply #52 in response to Jacklv's mention of SS's questioning Motti's game in reply #51.

And I used his name a 2nd time in my reply #60 as well.

You failed to answer the question. Maiden claimed the ToE knew precisely how to replicate the special ARC used to get a Dread Lord opponent.

My only claim is that you indicated to me that you may have known *of it* but did not know precisely how it was accomplished.

I know that you have no interest in using the DL ARC yourself and I don't see how anything that I've said impled that you did just that you or anyone else in the ToE did not know precisely how it was done.

Well that's at least one misunderstanding explained.

I'll try to verify this but it's really painful for me to do so.

First I have to make a disk image of my current drive. Only then would I be willing to install Impulse on my machine. Then I could do an upgrade and run the test for myself. Finally I could undo everything by restoring my original disk image. It would take some time to do and I'm not sure it's worth the effort to me.

Firstly because all of this is not particularly germane to the initial point I raised. Secondly you're questioning only one of the three separate purchasing functions (and the least important of the three) that I claim can be made while bankrupt. I assume you're not denying that you can purchase buildings and upgrade ships while bankrupt in these versions only that you can't directly buy ships, right?

In any case since this seems important to you I will make the test but I also suggest that we move the discussion of version differences to another thread. I'll open up a new one tomorrow.

---

As far as I'm concerned the question I opened up is done with. Can we at least agree on that?

Given that the information is freely available on the wiki I can acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with using the Dread Lords in a special ARC.

However can you at least acknowledge that it was not unreasonable of me to initially question the legitimacy of the Dread Lords ARC and once I did discover how it was done on my own to publish this information?

If so then there is nothing more for me to say here.

And I definitely am interested in understanding what significant differences exist between the revs I currently have and the ones people are currently playing but I'll leave that to another thread.