What if Capital Ships required specific research to build

While this would solve carrier-cap rushes, I have to ask: at what cost?  This will kill capital ship diversity, really cut down on early game strategy, and possibly make even more capital ships unused since players will never bother to get such high level prerequisites. 

Under this suggestion, we'd see Vasari go back to just cranking out multiple eggs, Advent would go back to solo-Progen with the Halcyon coming out later to provide energy amplification to the illuminators.  I think this suggestion would cause more damage than it would solve.

I understand where you are coming from with this. However, several mods such as the Star Trek and Star Wars mod require higher level research to get access to BETTER capital ships. You actually want to get these out later in the game because they provide a tactical advantage. I don't really see a lot of capital ship diversity now in game play. It's predominately Colonizer cap, Colonizer/Carrier or Dual Carrier with some siege combinations mixed in. And I rarely see a support capital like the Rapture or Antorak.

Possibly, but I do see the following in online play now: Starbase deployments, LRM, Carriers, Utility Cruisers and HC, all of which require research to build. If the capital ships provide a tactical advantage then they will be researched and built. Right now I have no reason to build a Kol or Radiance (maybe a Kortul is viable) early game because they have little tactical advantage and throwing the low level Radiance or Kol out mid to late game is simply suicide.

I just thought it would be interesting to have the ability to build better more durable capital ships mid to late game versus the same level of ship I was able to build at the beginning of the game while for frigates and cruisers you get a natural progression in durability, firepower and abilities.

I just wanted to chime in here in case the devs got the wrong idea, and decided to nerf carrier capitals, LOL.  I don't think I've seen anyone complain that carrier capitals are OP.  Most people I have spoken to like the level of "buff" for carrier caps, and want it for the other caps as well.  In other words, the carrier capitals aren't OP, the other capitals are UP.

I myself have several posts on carrier caps (halcyon, sova), but I stated several times in these posts that I don't want these caps nerfed, rather I think a buff is in order to other caps.

Fully agree with AoK. Caps die far too easily to focus fire right now. I want a buff to all other caps. And a major one this time. Increasing DPS would also be nice.

Guys, this was simply a what if...

I'm not suggesting a nerf, but a better buff to the capital ships and the abiltiy to bring them out a higher level than what you can do early game due to them being OP otherwise, which is where certain carrier caps are right now especially against Vasari.

I really don't care if this is implemented or not. Like I said it is just a what if and an observation on how several other well liked mods work and thinking what if it worked this way with the base game.

A major buff makes capital ships too OP early game which is the current issue at hand.

well, one thing to remember about mods that use research-linked caps-

they probably do this to create a sense of progression, and in the case of some mods (Dawn of Victory comes to mind), to create a sense of scale. I think that for vanilla Sins, capship research wouldn't really be very interesting.

Here's my reasons- all three races, by the time the Entrenchment period came around, were able to build all types of capital ships (in the very beginning, the Vasari&Advent are really the only ones able to build their entire fleet roster, lore-wise). Thus, research for caps wouldn't make sense lore-wise, would probably be opposed by the MP community on the basis of- wanting all the caps out at the beginning (not literally, just the potential), and wanting games to be shorter.

Well... This sounds like the exact reasoning for research linked frigates and cruisers. It's interesting this exists for basic ships but not capital ships.

Ya, the MP community would fight this because early game is about rushing to take out the suicide or aggressor positions. No issues there. It's just an interesting argument because everyone wants cap ships that are better and last longer which works for the current carrier cap, but if you build a late game capital ship it still starts at the low level and get dissentegrated fairly quickly in battles. So most people build masses of LRF's with either carriers or flak.

Also, the lore argument makes zero sense to me. You start out every game the exact same way, zero military labs and zero civic labs and access to scouts, LF and colonizer. You have to research everything except for the most advanced military units in the game which somehow get obliterated by LRF fire. Personally I would rather have access to kick butt battleship mid game than the pathetic ones available currently. Until this changes I'm pretty much stuck with colonizer/carrier or dual carrier.

Don't get me wrong I like this game and the MP aspect is extremely fun for competive play, it just doesn't expand beyond 3 military labs and 3-4 civic labs depending on race with minimal research inbetween for most 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 games. The multi-star games like Doppelgangers is really where you see diverse fleets and eco come out in MP.

As I said in the OP, this probably wouldn't happen for the game, if I do it for a personal mod so be it.

That's the current issue at hand?  I thought the issue at hand was that caps died too easy to masses of lrm FF, not that caps were too OP early game.

Your Vasari Caps die to easily. The TEC and Advent apparently do just fine

Reference your posts:

F***ing Sova (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/372560)

and

Dual Halcyon (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/373165)

My point was a major buff as suggested CAN make Caps OP early game (like carrier caps now). We have a problem where really early game OP caps can dominate and then not much later massed LRM's can take them out. It's a silly situation to be in.

No, from everything I've seen, everybody's caps die too easy to mass lrm.  Almost everyone and their mother seems to agree with this, as evidenced by all the people chiming in on these threads, so why the insult?

It's a no-brainer that no matter how good you are, you put your cap in a battle where there are 80 illums on the other side, it's gonna evaporate instantaneously, so again why the insult?  You think that only MY caps die in that situation, where as everybody else's do just fine?

But you don't need to reference those posts, because I just referenced those posts myself, right here:

Anyway...

Well like I keep saying, I never said carrier caps were OP early game.  I think they are buffed correctly.  But if you think they are OP, I guess that's fine.  Perhaps you can make your case and ask for a nerf.

hmm... not much of an insult here. Only playful jesting. Sorry if you took offense.

I did not at any point say what you believed/disbelieved carriers are OP, but the posts stand for themselves and definately demonstrate the power of a Sova or Halcyon rush. There are several other threads that speak to this.

This was in reference to @Beric01. Quite frankly carrier cap strategies CAN be OP (Operative term is CAN). I've read the history of threads on this game over the last two years and it's safe to say anytime a significant buff is made it CAN result in an inbalance in the game.

To quote Darvin3 (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/368646):

That was two months ago.  I've gotten more critical of carrier caps since then.  Especially recently, I've been trying to run with non-carrier openers, but the problem is that they're too vulnerable to carrier openers. 

The one suggestion I think that would help is buffing carrier cruisers and hangers (the latter significantly).  Both are somewhat prohibitive to begin with, and simply don't compare to capital carriers unless built in mass.  They can't produce new strike craft nearly as reliably and invariably will get overpowered.  If they got a buff to antimatter regeneration and their price point, that would make them a lot more competitive.

i tried this idea a while ago with the Carrier Cap mainly, but also with other caps, but many people were opposed to it...

simply put, i think this or a variation of this, is a good idea, but just as worthwhile would be some more direct combat ships...

i must say out of all the RTS games ive played, SINS has the least number of playable units... for example: in a standard RTS you can use either anti-tank infantry or tanks (or maybe aircraft or other things, depending on the game) against other tanks...

In Sins, you have LRF to combat LF, Scouts to combat LF, only 1 Battleship etc, only one heavy hitting ship (HC) etc etc...

i think more diversity would greatly help Sins

Yes, you will get no argument from me that carrier caps are are quite dominant, possibly too strong and OP.  Honestly, I find them QUITE bothersome.  The majority of my time and energy the last month or so playing online has revolved around trying to figure out a good way to counter them.  As always, trying to counter Advent is the worst.

But the reason I never criticize the carrier caps directly, and even "defend" them somewhat (they aren't OP, the other caps are UP!) is that the game had pathetically weak capships (crapships) for way, way too long.  It was so boring.  The devs FINALLY made a step in the right direction with buffing caps, so the last thing I want to do is tell them carrier caps are too strong, and to nerf them.  Then we are going back the other direction again.  I'd much rather see buffs to other caps, and Darvin has good ideas about buffing hangers and carrier cruisers (I have tried both and agree their performance is subpar).

I'm at the point now where I almost always start Carrier Cap and then add a colonizer if I get the chance.

Definately agree. I want to see more and varied capital ship usage that are viable assets early, mid and late game.

The fact is currently a strong capital ship rush can negate a quick tech to LRF which is the best anti-capital ship response. Once massed LRF is achieved all capital ships become somewhat UP. Like I said it's an almost silly situation to be in which is why I like your other posts like: Capships vs. illums/lrm/assailants, Dual Halcyon and F***ing Sova. I've also read some of your older historical posts like Nerf the damn Marza. The really old thread ship spammers-A Guide to Fighting Back (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/300958) was really interesting too (especially frogboy's comments). I wasn't around when the game started so I'm trying to get a historical sense of how much this game has changed and how much it hasn't.

How about if they just made it so leveled up caps are a lot more powerful?

Great that there's still so much discussion about this game. Hopefully the developers are following it as well.

So... I built this out as a personal mod, and atleast for myself, it just felt right for my style of SP play.

I justify my own idea of the Lore issue by assuming military research labs are necessary for producing the more complicated/experimental components that are required by Frigate and Capital Factories when constructing ships. The loss of the labs means the loss of the critical technology required to produce the ships.

So if I want an advanced siege capital ship for tech, I need to research the Krosov Prototype and then the Marza Prototype. If I want advanced Carrier capitalships, I need to research the Percheron Prototype first. You get the idea.

Also, For each tier'd level when the ship enters the battle field I made a scalar adjustment to the Hull, Shield, Command Points, etc. For example a Level 1 Marza comes off the assembly line with the same stats as a vanailla Level 3 Marza (except for abilities). A level 1 Kol comes off the assembly line with the same stats as a vanilla Level 6 Kol (except for abilities).

The distant stars mod still rocks for all around gameplay, capitalships and features though. I just wanted to try something different for myself and it was a good dive into modding entity files as well

i agree with the above post, except when i tried the same suggestion, i was told quite simply: well, the Kol is supposed to be the newest and most advanced ship the TEC have, so why is it ships that existed before (Marza, Sova) need to be researched before they can be built?

i usually like to stick to lore, but in this case its annoying, in that its in the way and its also correct in this case...

IIRC Way back in ye'old vanilla beta you did need to research cap ships before you could build them... Dang that was long time ago :/

i would like cap ship research though, especially as that would enable more powerful/diverse caps ships to be brought out later