KerrekCruiser

Join Date 04/2009

An Apology and a Request for Advice

Entrenchment Replay

MaverickAlphaBravo, ISON, and Dragonfire - if you read the forums, sorry about the disconnect in this last game with [$]. I didn't purposefully quit on you, my ethernet cable has gone to shit and I got disconnected. It previously hasn't been a problem (only caused trouble in 2 out of 20 or so games) but today it's been really acting up. I messaged [$] to resetup, but he said it was almost over anyway. Hopefully he passed the message on to you guys that I wans't quitting out.

If anyone offhand has any good links on replacing the jack of an ethernet cable, please do share.

Game related, can someone give me advice on what I should have done differently to get a better leg up on the advent player next to me? I built a bunch of percherons to counter his illums, but then he came in with massively more flak and illums than I could handle.

Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zmn2ejdtziu

Should I have changed something in my build order to allow myself to outproduce him? Should I have just built scouts to counter his illums instead of carriers? My fear with using the scout counter is that the flak will just counter them as well and then they'll drop like flies.

Should I have just massed flak to go after illums instead of carriers? Also, should I have pulled back to help ISON immediately while he was being double teamed? My fear was that would just open me up to getting rolled over by red. Should I have fed him some money and urge him to build starbases.

I wasn't in there long before my cable cut me out, but I would like to know how I could do better.

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When someone disconnects like that , its usually preceded by a long pause. When someone quits , theres no pause . This is usually how one tells whether someone use the quit button or someone actually genuinely disconnected.

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Well after watching the replay, I realize that I didn't do as badly as I thought I had. I did a decent amount of damage. It appears that red outproduced due to a little bit of feeding and because he ignored any other upgrades. I've generally been told that TEC SHOULD buy the armor upgrade, so I think I made the right move.

My big problem is learning how to be more aware of allies around the map while I manage my own. ISON really was hurting really badly, especially since he had no territory. Maverick had his fleet coming down to put pressure on red, so I could have withdrawn to aid. I also didn't notice that I had as much of a surplus in resources towards the end, I could have fed ISON some.

Course, the blame can't be put ENTIRELY on me. Maverick could have told me that he had red. Likewise, ISON could have been a bit more specific.

Also, I could have either focused my marza on the asteroid really early instead of chasing the drone hosts, or I could have hopped over to Red's HW to mess up his tech.

It's a work in progress, I'm still learning

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Ah, Ok. First, since you're new. Go read my unit guide in the Strategy Section. It's not too far down the list. I call it UNIT FAQ [Completed]. It has a full list of counters and a lot of info for how units should be used.

Don't worry about the disconnects. They happen all the time with ICO. Best advice is to restart sins after every online game. It's the only thing I've seen that works. Restarting your comp helps too with the RAM. You get rid of any clutter programs running the background that might eat RAM. Then again, you might have a kick ass comp and this doesn't apply to you.

To answer your specific question though, you were TEC going up against a fleet of Flak and Illums. This is a very tough and ingenious fleet. Flak are tough and kill fighters, so carriers are out of the quesiton. Scouts are an option, but you need time to build them. They CAN do it. Ideally, you send a ludicrous (100+) amount of scouts after the Illums, knock 'em out, and then build light frigs to knock out the flak that's left over. You need ideally three scouts per Illuminator. You can get away with 5 scouts per every 2 Illums, but your pushing your luck there.

Ideally, against a fleet that is Flak and Illum, the best TEC answer if HC's.

I have not watched your replay. I have no luck with those files. I will tell you that if you like TEC, the LRM will lose to Illuminators, but scouts won't. Cobalts are good against flak and carriers. As TEC, if you have a lul where you can get HC's out in decent numbers (say 8+) and get at least one hoshiko per every HC, you're golden. I tend to get 2 per every three HC.

Problem is Hoshikos suck at targeting units that ACTUALLY need health. With fewer targets in the form of HC's, they do their job MUCH better.

Be careful though. HC's take a decent economy to get going. I advise 4 planets minimum for them, 6 preferably.

Oh, and +karma is appreciated!

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Thanks for the referral Amish. I actually read through the whole post while it was incomplete, but I've only perused since you've finished it. I'll take a closer look and see if something sticks out to me.

Now, understanding what you've said, what should I do when a smart opponent notices that I am massing scouts and starts pumping out disciples to balance his fleet? It seems to me that I would have to produce a lot more scouts than he would disciples (which will be more valuable in the long run).

I'm a little leery of relying too heavily on the scouts because the last time I tried the gambit (as Vasari this time), my scouts got owned by a progen using malice.

Also, could you post a replay where you use your infamous scout rush to great effect? A forum post is great, but a replay is worth a billion words

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The red man that pwned you (montana i think) did a great job rushing to ilums. He scuttle his cap factory to give him a little cash back and to free up a log spot for 3rd lab without having to upgrade (saving alot of time and resources early game)

I always scuttle my cap factory. it enables you to tech faster-earlier.

When you attacked him (second time) you only had 6 LRM, and had 8 or 9 flak. flak should protect LRFs. but they will not do much else. you had more than enough flak to handle 2 carriers worth of fighters and yet that flak really didnt have a job (no LRM to protect from fighters) carriers w fighters were good but...he had repair bays. hoshikas were good too but again...they really had no job (only 6 LRM-of which 2 went down immidiatly) his fleet had 14 illums, 2 carriers (and dont forget the 2 repair bays) so you will lose that everytime unless your marza is lvl 6. Becuase he can pretty much ignore the flak and hoshikas, take out your carriers and then go after your cap.

He outproduced you because while you were mass resarching (hoshikas, flak, carriers, extra armour) he was massing illums.

I am no genuis here but i will throw out my 2 cents...

You spent alot of time and resouces (oh so valuable early game) on military research--only to attack with a small and imbalanced fleet. Flak, fighters, hoshikas...are very valuable and needed vessels which will support and defend your fleet while you fleet should assault the enemy and his worlds. BUT...how valuable are those support ships if there is no fleet to support?

Build WAYY more lrfs and maybe lfs (for anti-carrier) and then add the support. fighters are good v lrf but they are sooo easy to counter. do bombers too (to take out his repair bays and carriers) and having bombers may pull off some of the enemy fighters from your LRM...

Another thing..you buid 2 more factories just 2 jumps away from your HW which already had a factory and at the time you had just 3-4 planets. again waste of time and resources when you could just be building ships. Unless you are getting heavy feeding your econ is not going to be that good early game to keep 3 factories pumping...

...

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Thanks Derek, that was really insightful.

I'm getting two conflicting opinions here though. Amish says that I will never outdo illums with Javeli, so I should just pump out 100 scouts in response to the illum threat, Derek says I should forget about flak and hoshis in lew of pumping out many more javeli until later on.

I'm assuming there is some sort of middle ground here I'm missing due to lack of experience. Do either of you have a replay you could post to give me some more intuition on the matter? OR, just as good, can you recommend an already posted replay I could check into?

Much thanks

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[$] is King of Kings, please don't feel bad about ruining any game with him.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Nightraid3r,

reply 7

[$] is King of Kings, please don't feel bad about ruining any game with him.

Oh, is that who [$] is? Lol.

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yeah hes really just so pathetic.

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Quoting KerrekCruiser,

reply 6

Thanks Derek, that was really insightful.

I'm getting two conflicting opinions here though. Amish says that I will never outdo illums with Javeli, so I should just pump out 100 scouts in response to the illum threat, Derek says I should forget about flak and hoshis in lew of pumping out many more javeli until later on.

I'm assuming there is some sort of middle ground here I'm missing due to lack of experience. Do either of you have a replay you could post to give me some more intuition on the matter? OR, just as good, can you recommend an already posted replay I could check into?

Much thanks

Im not saying that Javilis will take out illums. Only that hoshikas and flak will definitly not take out illums (or anything except fighters and maybe bombers). Im trying to emphasize here that support needs something to support or your just wasting resources and time. When you get that support depends on the situation. But you need some assault vessels first whcih will most likely (and should be LRFs). id say at 20 or so LRFs tech your fist support ship. But after you tech it and build some, dont stop building your main unit (LRF), because they are what will destroy your opponents ships/structures. If you lose a significant amount of your main unit in a battle, replace those first before building more support.

Another important thing here: dont mass research (research 3+ prototypes/upgrades). One at a time. Which one you do first depends on the situation. i usualy get hoshikas first. once you research it, build some. say 5-10. keep building you assault force too. then research the next one you want. (you want to upgrade your fleet effeciently, not so fast that your fleet is balanced but tiny)

Back to LRM vs Illum: You should have alot more LRMs of your own out than he has illums. tech LRM requires 2 labs to illums 3 and each LRM is cheaper than a illum. And you dont build LRFs to counter something like flak or fighters are built to counter fighters and bombers/LRF. You build LRF to RAIN DOWN FIRE UPON your enemy and kill everything in the grav well. So build those LRMs !!

Scouts: yes scouts will counter all LRF but they wont do a whole lot else unless you have hundreds of them. like fighters, scouts are easy to counter (LFs will do). massing scouts to counter LRF will work...but...the further away you get from your factories and the closer you get to his means it will be harder to do this. If he attacks you you build and build units that go directly into battle where his fleet is more committed since hes several jumps away from his factory. so where he attacks you he cant get LF there in time to counter the scouts and must retreat. If you attack him however the opposite is true. He will get LF there much faster to counter scouts and you will be forced to retreat. And say your scouts win. then what? they sure as heck arnt going to assault his HW very well (unless you have timed explosives). And his next fleet definitly will have LF to rid of your scouts...

So scouts to defend against attacking LRF swarms = good. Scouts attacking his worlds that have defending LRF swarms = not so good (unless you have timed explosives)

I hope im making sense here...lol

and THANKS for the +1 !!

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Derek pretty much hit it on the nose. I use scouts primarily when someone buys Illums, Assailants, LRMS, whatev, and doesn't stop building them early. I buy them because they can push them back and push them back hard. I DON'T keep building them once I have them on the run. I will use timed explosives if I'm TEC cause you got the scouts, why not tech their ability that destroys buildings too (aim for frigate factories and military labs, 8 per building ideally should do it, 6 for frigate factories).

I use scouts because EVERYONE in this game goes straight to Illums or Assailants (LRMS not so much) and just sends them to their opponent because they figure the rush will hit them hard and fast and they'll win. Well, scouts are a very cheap answer that can push them back hard, but they can't keep them on the ropes. You need something else to finish the job. Your own LRF's would be ideal. Light frigs would be ok. HC's would be awesome if you could afford them.

The scout tactic works because it stops someone from making the best early game unit, the long range frigate. WHen youre opponent can't make them and you can, you're golden.

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