Quoting Ouchy Dathurts, reply 19Before I continue discussing this issue please take the time to fill in this simple yes or no questionaire.
Please don't mind if I expand a little on my answers.
If you insist on spinning things. They're simple yes or no questions. If you understand them then there really isn't much to discuss. But......
I understand that fully. The child-like programming of the site aside, the concept is terrible and has no place in this community.
The site may have "child-like programming" I honestly don't know or care. It won't be used, its far to half assed to address the issue at hand. No one will alt tab to check a player out, they just wont. That said the general concept (minus the global ban) is sound. I as a host have the right to keep track of the players I never want to see again. This is ALL a banlist does. There is NOTHING wrong with that concept.
I understand this. Do you understand that people also have a problem with the concept as a whole, regardless of it's implementation as either a website or a 3rd Party Program and that this concept has no place in this community?
Has no place in this community? How do you figure that? We're not talking about the website anymore so you can drop that whole thing right here and now. If it's a program running in the background keeping track of douche bags it effects you in zero way unless you're one of those douche bags. If not you have no argument.
Here's a list derectly out of my banlist of bannable offenses in my games. Leaver, lagger, plug puller (disconnecting by pulling your plug and wasting everyones time instead of just leaving the damn game), AFKer (going afk for extended periods of time without saying a word or sharing control of your hero), feeder (intentionally feeding), getting racial, lamer (backdooring, not shutting the hell up, going out of your way to not help your team). I don't think any of those reasons are out of line for any reasonable person.
People are already doing these things in your magical utopia. They'll continue to do it, if you want to just take your lumps go ahead. I, myself, would rather have a way to not have to deal with them ever again.
I understand this. Do you understand the program is designed to prevent these players from entering the game to begin with, thus negating this question entirely as this question is asked under the assumption that the program has failed in it's initial purpose begging the question what the point of the program would be?
Yes, I fully understand how this program works. I've used it in thousands of hosted DotA games, it's not a new concept to me. However some people in this thread think that it's going to eject people from games. If I join a pantheon it'll kick me or the other guy out cuz one of us is banned! No, no it wont. This is strictly a custom game thing. Not all these questions are directed directly at you.
I understand that there are large scale bans, described here in terms of a ban placed by one user that is transfered to another user's Ban list in one method or another.
Banlist comes with a checkbox (which the user can opt to not use) which will connect his banlist to a server containing "approved bans" from approved hosts from the TDA league. Outside of the TDA bans there is no way to link your lists or somehow make a ban outside of your own computer. Are you an approved host for TDA? If not than you can NEVER make one of these bans. So we can drop this idea that every tom, dick, and harry can do this. That'd be a lie.
I understand that. Do you understand that people, such as myself, will make sure that the people harbouring the mindset required to us this type of behaviour are treated in a manner befitting said behaviour?
Whats with the circle talk? lol. These griefers and idiots are already in the game. There is no way to stop them outside of a banlist. Whether it comes from GPG/SD or a third party doesn't really matter. As long as it's a certifiable banlist. I'd prefer a third party myself as it offers a level of cusomizablity and features that I can say with a fairly high level of certainty won't exist with an official version. The only saving grace I think a GPG/SD one would have is their banlist could ban that users CD key from you so that regardless of what ingame name they used they could never play with you. That'd be a nice feature that a third party system couldn't do.
I understand that the host agrees when opening the game to public play that the good come with the bad and also that hosting a game doesn't automatically make you correct.
Hosting doesn't make you correct. But as far as that specific game is concerned you are the end all be all. If a host has favor items disabled you can ask him to turn them on, or he can tell you to piss off. No one can make him do anything he doesn't want to do. By the same token if that host doesn't want you there you don't get to be there. You're also playing by his rules, everyone thinks different things are bullshit moves.
In DotA some people allow backdooring, some people don't. It depends on your host. Which is why something like TDA was made. These are the rules, everyone can see them, violate the rules and you're done. Now the host isn't correct or incorrect, there is no mystery. You're either in the wrong or you're not. It's black and white.
I understand this fact and agree completely.
Finally something we can agree on without going back and forth. I submit that banlist is merely my post-it note. I've already chosen I never wish to see you again and banlist is there to ensure that.
I understand this fact and often state such a fact as a reason for leaving the DotA community. Do DotA players of any calibre understand that Demigod is neither DotA nor a spiritual successor and as such the communities and their ideals about fair play and accountability are different? Furthermore, do DotA community members/players understand that being a DotA player does not give them powers of superior intelligence and are they familiar with the term "What happens in DotA, stays in DotA?".
(This is getting annoying to cut and paste quotes! lol) You left DotA because of TDA bans? If you did than the only inference I can get from that is you're someone who broke the rules. If this is the case then why do I care what you think? Play by the rules or don't play TDA. You can host your own game with whatever zany ass rules you like.
I'd like to see where that term has ever been used =P If you want to make up terms as some sort of commonplace thing this is a retarded discussion we're having here. DG is not DotA, spiritual successor, well since it involves no one that worked on DotA that can't be either. What it is the second legitimate game of the genre. Games in the same genre are going to draw the same people, have the same issues, have the same drama, have the same problems.
This has nothing to do with superior intelligence. This problem already exists in DG. If you want to turn a blind eye have fun. Some of us don't want to just have this problem go completely unchecked.
I understand that those global bans are few and far between?I understand this.
So, it's not an issue. Global bans in DotA were a rarity and as such are not the plague people are making it out to be.
I understand that all of those global bans come with an archived replay to prove the worthyness of the ban?
I understand this.
So, these global bans are not given out on a whim. Again, not a plague, people can chill out.
I understand that all of these global bans come with the ability to appeal?
I understand this.
So, again these global bans came with the ability for the offender to make his case and get it reversed. Seems pretty even handed to me!
I understand this. Do you understand that no sane person would think that anyone should the right to globally ban anyone who is not accountable for the use of such a ban?
Every global ban in DotA came with accountability. A select group of people, posted rules, an application process you went through, archived replays, and the ability to appeal. Seems like there's a shitload of accountability involved in every single one of them. Again, this isn't some sort of plague.
I'll speak for myself here, rather than for the 'People', when I say that I consider the idea behind this program a terrible one; one that propells the elitest mindset that ruined the DotA community as a whole caused many like myself to leave. If people are leaving the DotA community and coming to Demigod, perhaps addressing why they would be leaving would be better than attempting to replicate that community on top of a new game of a simillar style? Starting fresh, without the elitests' and general scum of the internet sounds like a much better idea to me than to drag all of the fine people who play Demigod down to the level of the average DotA denizen.
What elitist mindset? You've already stated I have the right to not play with anyone of my choosing, as do you. This program makes that possible. Without it it isn't feasible in the least.
Do you think there's some sort of mass exodus from DotA? Because I can assure you there is not. I still play DotA more than DG and I think that'll always be the case. It's a game in the same genre, something new to dick around with. This isn't an MMO where I only want to pay 15 bucks a month for 1 game so I only play one game. This is a one time purchase which can be played whenever I so choose. If you like vanilla ice cream you can never have chocolate! Even if you still prefer vanilla there will be no deviation!
As my answeres to your above questions should indicate, I understand fully. However, I've clearly forgotten the question that the Banlist program was supposed to answer! Oh, is my face red! Was it 'How best to divide the community?', or 'How to drive players away?', perhaps it was 'Will running a Banlist program stroke my e-peen?' or 'How to ruin a new game's fledging community?'. I think we need to consider whatever the original answer was, the question wasn't terribly intelligent and thus the reply is 'cut from the same cloth'.
Mind indicating where I was talking to you with this post at all? Just curious if you're seeing things, because thats a pretty serious condition if you are.
I honestly couldn't really care less as far as the community is concerned. I mean I dont play these games to make friends. This is not a case for the ACLU, I'm not accountable to anyone in this community, or the DotA community, or god, or country so you can go ahead and drop the holier than thou shit.
The problem (if you're so daft you need me to say it again, I honestly think you're just trolling at this point) is Leavers, racists, feeders, laggers. I don't want to play with any of these people. I have the right to not have to play with them as you yourself have personally stated. The problem is keeping the riff raff out of my games. I don't have to justify it to you.
Do you have a problem with a piece of paper by my computer that says "Joe is a leaver"? If you do, we're done here. If you don't then realize one simple thing. This is ALL banlist is.
DotA is indeed almost entirely responsible for the creation Demigod in that it started the general concept of the play mechanics that Demigod uses. The culture of DotA, however, is not a result of the Map itself, if anything it's a result of the Map being created for a game that was created by Blizzard Entertainment, as all of their games' communites are drowning in this culture. The culture of DotA is rather a direct result of the mindset of the vocal people who continually devise ways of seperating themselves from the 'n00bs'; people who think that they're better than everyone else. It's arrival within the Stardock forums is directly linked to the creation and subsequent release of Demigod, or at least that is the impression I have gathered from reading the forums and talking with the people who were here before I joined - which is also linked to the release of Demigod. One can then deduce that the arrival of this culture is also a direct result of the players with this kind of mindset, of which DotA players are included, infecting the community as a whole. In less words; you and your ilk brought it with you, and now you need a method to control it. Maybe I'm wrong, however being as these Blacklist programs are created in communities where the majority of players habrour this kind of thinking or in communities where those players spread to, maybe I'm not.
What does blizzard have to do with anything? Blizzard sells millions and millions and millions of copies of everygame it makes. The DotA problem has nothing to do with Blizzard other than it makes a games possible population higher than any other games on the market. There are idiots in every MMO community, not just WoW. WoW has soooooo many more players than other MMOs that the problem seems larger. If 20% of an MMOs community is fucktarded and in most MMOs thats 40,000 people. In WoW if 20% of the community is fucktarded that's 2 million people (assuming 10million customers). The percentage is the same but the problem looks larger because the community is that much larger. And for the record I don't like WoW so calm down.
Now, this isn't an MMO. But the fact is there aren't idiots because of blizzard. There are idiots because X% of people are idiots, on the internet Y% more idiots by the virtue of anonymity, in a competitive game which brings shit talk by virtue of being competitive, and a team based game which brings even MORE shit talking because you rely on people besides yourself. That's a massive powderkeg which has not a thing to do with Blizzard but has everything to do with the type of game DotA is.
This ilk (which, go to hell) is supposed to come from DotA exists in some level on the INTERNET. They're going to come based solely on that fact alone. Ever seen a forum troll (I'm not so sure you're not) on a non DotA forum? A griefer in a game that isn't DotA? If you answered yes to either of these then your theory is kinda shot. People are already here griefing in game because you can't do a damn thing about it. You can't do a thing about it entirely in DotA, but you can try and stave some of it off with banlist. That's all people want. I cant keep 100% of the idiots out of my game but if I can keep any percentage out then it's worth it.
Your statement that all communities of the same genre are simillar is also incorrect; one needs only look at the very genre both Demigod and DotA share in common; the RTS genre. From Homeworld, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Sins of a Solar Empire, Starcraft, Demigod, Total War, Dark Reign to Supreme Commander the communities around these games are different; and, apart from two of them, they don't have the culture that has drowned DotA. You can't blame the culture that exists within DotA on anyone else other than the people who make up it's community. Nice try, though.
You're wrong. DotA and DG aren't RTSs. They're a sub-genre created by AoS which DotA turned into a phenomenon which GDG deemed worthy of expanding. The RTS RPGs. The RTS RPG is NOT the same as warcraft, or Starcraft, or any other RTS.
So, being as this has no other game in common with it than DotA, guess what, still true. But if you want to compare apples to oranges you're entitled to. But next time don't make me part of it.
RTS RPGs have all the things I listed before in common. Games whos entire existence revolves around multiplayer, competitive gameplay, and team gameplay. All things that make peoples blood boil and turn people into shitheads. Every player has to pull their weight or the whole house of cards crashes. When someone doesn't pull their weight people will freak out, people will rage quit, people will talk mad shit and start calling people every racist term in the books, people get livid. It's part of this fabulous genre we've both decided to play. You're not going to change the world so there's no reason to try. But what you can do is make your little section of it as clear of people you dont like as possible. Enter banlist.
Now, to swing this back on topic, which is why the Blacklist program is a bad idea, let me ask you a simple question:
How is the in-game Ignore list, which is coming in a future update, not sufficent enough that one requires a 3rd Party Program?
Already answered this earlier in the post. I'd prefer the customization and features of a third party program more myself. Plus I'm sure someone can get some college credit for it or something
BUT if GPG/SD can make it so a ban bans a persons CD key from my games I'd take that in a heartbeat. The one fatal flaw of a banlist, which maybe you don't know about, is that you can make a new username and my banlist has effectively forgotten about you.
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So, if you can't globally ban anyone. If I have the right to choose who I play with. If you always have the right to make your own game if you don't like mine. If I have the right to write a name down on a piece of paper. What exactly is the problem with banlist? Lets cut all the bullshit. Keep it short and sweet, keep the spin circular logic to a minimum. Also forget about this website because we've already gone over how it's not an issue. I'd honestly like to know what the possible problem with that is.