Will this be like in GalCiv2 where the default ships are really pathetic compared to what the player can build?  Or will the default ships be able to hold their own?

I think it would be totally awesome if the unit build screen looked just like that!

The picture implies that training will give extra hp, which is a simple and effective way to show combat training.  But can training do anything else, like supplying special attacks/qualities?  Could I train archers to be able to hide in woods and make ambushes to make a "rangers" unit?

Don't forget the mounts also.  Where would you assign a unit a horse, etc thus creating a mounted unit?

I only show 3 items to equip your units as an example, it's not meant to represent the entirety of how one builds units. 

I don't think any of us want me trying to draw a horse.  

Like GalCiv, we will have templates. Like GalCiv: Twilight of the Arnor, those templates will automatically update as your tech and such gets better.

The tech trees are differnet in Elemental than in GalCiv. They're a lot more like MOO 1 actually (a lot of parts of the game are more like MOO 1 (not 2) than GalCiv so it's not about researching "Super swords" or something but rather investing in a type of sword and it gets better and better over time which is automatically inherited by the units.

To use a GalCiv analogy:

Imagine if ship weapons were missiles, phasers, and photons.  Those are the only 3 weapon techs.  You then put your research into those 3 weapon techs and over time, they get better and better and thus your ships get better and better automatically. You don't have to redesign your units nearly as often as a result.  We might throw in flavor text on the latest tech names but they won't be different components like they are in GalCiv II.

So while you may have a Cutlass versus a Long sword versus a bastard sword (for instance) you won't have Super Cutlas, Super Duper Cutlas, etc. That you have to research and then equip all your units with.  You'll simply research Cutlass and over time the Cutlass will get better.

The reason for this is because we want players to customize their units and there's a lot more opportunity in Elemental to do some cool stuff in this area than there was in GalCiv in some ways.

yeah, and you can/should put your horse into the 'draw your mount' thread started by flyguy.   I mean we have a scribble that I think is a bear, and I cannot imagine that your horse is not at least of that quality.

Frogboy: How are you going to deal with "equipment" combinations that simply don't work, either with the unit or with other pieces of equipement? To pick an example to demonstrate my question, what if a player wants to pick a summoned demon for a paladin to ride. A Paladin wouldn't necessarily be compatible with every type of mount the game might offer out of the box or indeed player created mounts.

Or what if the player wants to give a magic item or book a golum or a tamed beast? A tamed beast could not wear a magic ring, a golum cannot read a spell. You get the picture (I hope).

To chose a less unlikely combo, what if a player wants to equip his paladin with a two handed sword and a shield. Unless you find and buy off a friendly settlement of 3 armed men, that ain't going to work. Are there going to be very specific classes of "equipment" that you can use and any player customised items must be designated with a certain classification?

Another question, that kinda ties in: How are you going to deal with animations of customised units? Will each piece of equipment have to adhere to a size constrant to prevent swords clipping through shoulders or shields chomping into the neck of the riders mount?

I love the sound of this system, it just seems like alot of conflicts could occur with so many probable variables in play.

Thanks!

I should have asked here before I posted in the mount section.

Are mounts going to just be extensions of the unit, a horse adds speed and some attack bonus, maybe a charge bonus with lance...   bear adds extra maul attack and massive toughness and damage bonus....  sky shark adds a tone of speed and an extra high damage attack.  Add barding to mount for + defense to the unit

or are mounts going to opperate as their own sub-unit:  they have their own hit points, attack, and defense, + defence if you add barding, + attack if you ... uh... coat their teeth in chrome?, extra HP if you breed them with special hormones.   They can be killed their own.

pigeonx2:    Spells?   I imagine that you could add spell training to a unit pretty easily.   

(I can see 'healing spells' being an area I train almost all my units)

A couple of thoughts:

- The diagram is kind of wrong, isn't it?  Training takes 5 turns, but those 5 turns seem to be able to occur sequentially with the equipment acquisition.  So, essentially all of those boxes should be on the same vertical line, and the max is what determines the time to create the unit.

- I fear this system is not going to create interesting combinations.  It is never in your interest to create a highly trained unit with little equipment, for example, or a highly equiped unit with little training.  Since equipment creation is done sequentially to training.  Unless the gold cost of the equipment is the issue, maybe.  Not sure whether the same comparison applies between swords/helmets as well.  There, I would assume that different cities would be making the different items.

- This system is actually VERY similar to what was done with military units in Settlers.  Strategic choices could be created by locating your resource creating nodes (blacksmiths who create the swords) closer to your resource using nodes (unit creators).  But is it too fiddly to have the player move those resources himself?  I think having each city have a storehouse, and having AI controlled trader units to move those resources between cities that need them.  Could be very interesting.  

- Look at the CivRev model for road creation.  One unique road between cities built without workers.  This road would provide unique trade route for trader caravans.  I would propose that you should consider being able to fortify/attack those roads just as you would your cities.

- Why are we requesting 10 units?  Are we then waiting until all 10 are complete to get any?  Can we request 1 unit at a time?

- Perhaps all "Beasts" can be mounts?

First off, hello everyone.

I like the fact that you can design your own units. That is a very, very good mini-game for a turn based strategy game to include, in my opinion.

I like the thought of having units cost components rather than some unified, fungible resource like gold or credits. It was certainly cool in "Lords of the Realm 2"; it would be cool here as well.

I like the concept of having local amounts of resources/components rather than a universally accessible stockpile that all of your cities tap into. That is a rarely used mechanic that would help Elemental to distinguish itself from other turn-based strategy games.

However, I am concerned about the micro-management (MM) issues that could be introduced when you combine all three game mechanics.

Most games that include combat have a "build a unit" mini-game. In fact, the build-a-unit mini-game is often one of the central mini-games in strategy games. In Homeworld you needed enough resources, time and the requisite tech to build a unit. Then, you click a button, your mothership consumes the resources, spends time building and finally the unit pops out; neither the time nor the cost element changes in regard to circumstances. In Civilization you needed the requisite building, the requisite tech and a variable amount of time to build the unit. Units didn't cost resources unless you wanted to hurry along their production by sacrificing money or city population (enslaved to rush-build). Now let's talk about Elemental...

There are three questions I need to ask when I am going to decide where to build a unit:
1) How much will that unit cost at location X?
2) How long will it take that unit to be built at location X?
3) How useful will the unit be at location X?

The answer to 1 is, as far as we know, fixed. A "paladin" (as defined in the original post) costs one sword, one set of armor, one shield and one helmet. That cost does not vary from city to city... as far as we know. This could vary but no mechanics for that have been introduced.

The answer to 3 is game-context specific and is not of concern here; I mention it only for the sake of completeness.

This game is being deliberately designed so that the answer to 2 will vary from city to city depending on, among other things, the availability of components. It looks like there are three or more stages to creating a unit: collecting the raw materials (weapons, armor, mounts, etc) into one location, assembling those raw materials into a unit and letting that unit sit around in the queue improving its stats, a.k.a. training. What is required to get all the necessary components (10 swords, sets of armor, shields and helmets) to city X so I can build ten paladins there? We don't know but I want to call attention to this because it's ambitious.

What I am worried about here is the game becoming too MM intensive. If I have to track how long it'll take to get swords, armor, shields and helmets to my city then I am essentially playing four additional mini-games just to complete the "build a unit" mini-game for one particular unit. Do I first have to manage my iron mining and iron distribution to ensure I have adequate sword production to even consider training paladins? How automated will resource management be? How many steps do I really have to consider if I want to build 10 paladins? That's a number that can quickly become too large.

Or not. Turn based games have done all sorts of stuff to streamline; keeping the strategic depth that having addition steps creates while introducing game mechanics that lessen the amount of attention required by the player.

In short, I like the ideas presented by Brad and company, I just want to express my concerns about the challenges surrounding those design decisions.

I would find a way to encourage people to not design units during their turn.  Like in a multiplayer game, when they have hit end turn and are waiting for other players, have it appear as some sort of 'quick link' option to the things that can be done off turn.   Other things I imagine that would be off turn includes diplomacy, building queues, and such, but designing units might take time.

also, a 'quick save' option for designing units so that you can pause your work and do your turn when its your turn again.