The "Generals" Discussion 2.0

Vanadrom

Join Date 07/2006

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The "Generals" Discussion 2.0

All things Generals, Development and Discussion

The "Generals" Discussion 2.0

Since Beta 1, we've been dealing with Assassins and we know them and love them for what they are. The introduction of Beta 2 brought a new side of the game into the light, Generals, and though we know they are far from finished this thread has been erected as a staple to help them grow into becoming something fun and unique to play. Join our discussion, express your ideas, and remember one fact when considering feedback:

Important Notes

* Consider how Generals can become more unique, within the bounds of what is already existing in the game of course.

* This is not the first thread of its kind, the original thread is found here: Demigod Journals: Generals

* Please provide clear feedback, following these guidelines:

- Title your ideas.

- List them in short, concise bullet points.

- Give details, in order, well below the list of bullet points.

- DO NOT quote other people's ideas in full length and type: "I agree"

- DO NOT quote other people line by line to "break down" their arguements.

Current List of Generals

Some Materials for this list originated from this thread: General Generals

For more details on each General, pleaese visit link provided above.

Oak

Lord Erebus

Sedna

Queen of Thorns

Primary Concerns from Community

Generals are, at present, nothing more than Assassins with the option of additional units.
Plays exactly like an Assassin.
Can do everything an Assassin can, but thensome.
Doesn't even remotely feel like an RTS element.

There is a lot of feedback from the community again Generals, this is why I'd like to make this thread more of the focus of that dicussion. In order to start things off on the right direction, I'll provide my feedback here as an example of the guidelines I've listed above. Thank you for your cooperation in this effort to expand upon the game in this open form of communication between community and development.

~ Orlean Knight

Suggestion: Generals and Assassins play 100% Differently

Right now, my largest concern with Generals, even though they are a new element that is far from complete, is that they share too many things in common with an Assassin. I feel that they should play very differently, and get rewarded in different ways. Assassins should play very differently from Generals, and in essense be almost two different games. Complicated indeed, but I think I have some ideas that may get things moving into that "gereral" direction.

Overview:

Things I feel that are WRONG with Generals

Generals hold their own against Assassins.
Generals have to enter the battle and lead their minions.
Generals can not develop or adjust their minions.
Minions are not a General's real strength.
Generals can wear equipment.
Generals have combat abilities to battle against Assassins.
Generals have no unique form of income.

Things I feel Generals MAY resolve these issues

Generals should be no stronger an Giants.
Generals can command and control their presence throughout the field, without leaving the base.
Generals can upgrade and adjust their minions attributes like the Citadel.
Minion's are the General's presense on the field.
Instead of Equipment, the Shop has sections for Generals to develope thier Minions.
Generals should have abilities which focus on healing and buffing grunts and minions and maybe area attacks.
Generals can earn gold to Upgrade Citadel, but a General's power pool could be generated from the death of mindless grunts.

Breakdown:

When I think of a General, I think of a miliatry tactition who doesn't stick their neck out in the face of combat. Instead, they focus on amasing strength in numbers of having youthful muscle run out and do all the fighting for them. A general shouldn't leave the base, and if they do it should be for two reasons:

The enemy is breaking into the base, and more defense is needed on the front lines.
Your team is pushing hard on the base and they need an outpost to keep the push going.

A General should symbolize the measure of your war effort, and can have a lot of power when it comes to the direction and motivation of units on the field. Like in most RTS games, the General is the player themselves, the mouse pointer and the screen. The physical form of the General should only be a means in which to halt a player's command of an army for a duration of time. Making them a target which sits safely inside of the base behind defenses.

Unlike the Assassin, the General should use minions alone to try and take down enemy Demigods. Their Minions alone are their strength, and their only real physical fighting power. They can develop minions in the base using the shop as seen below:

Image Explaination:

This modified General Shop shows several unit types on the left that a General can summon via the Star Icon.
Selecting a unit shows upgrades for that unit type alone. Allowing you to increase armor and damage for choice units based on your play style.
The skull is an additional upgrade which adds effects to units on death. Making Assassins think twice before killing your minions.
The blue icon at the top is an idea, it represents Souls that Generals can collect and invest into upgrades.

Souls

This is an idea I have, I'd like to know what others think. But I feel there needs to be a proxy for the General on the field, and I feel that could be in the form of a Soul Reaper. This unit is the only thing I can think of that would actually be something 'new' that the artists would have to generate, so therefore it makes the suggestion questionable. But even so, I'll illustrate the idea as best as I can so help others judge whether or not something like this is a good idea or not.

Soul Reaper

This proxy can be a critical unit which, like the Oak's ward, can draw in souls from units that die near it. These souls can then be utilized by the Generals back the base to invest into various unit upgrades. These Soul Reapers become a prime target for shutting out the production of a General's units, and also makes them very precious for the General to keep alive. I would imagine they wouldn't be able to defend themselves, but instead have a good sum of HP to absorb some damage, and they protentially even be upgraded. This idea is variable, I just felt it'd be interesting and different.

Experience Points and Abilities

Well if a General is not in combat, how would they accquire experience to develop their abilities? This question could be answered with the soul idea listed above, but just incase no one takes interest into that idea - there would need to be a sound alternative. I feel the minions under a General's control could be able to amass experience points just like other Assassins. When they kill something or capture something, that experience is transferred into the General who can gain levels and put points into developing abilities that heal and buff their minions and grunts. Also, potentially Area Damage skills can be used as well to frighten off Assassins who try to hinder your army's movements.

Protection spells seems like very good alternative to attacks, such as putting up a shield against the Torch Bearer's Rain of Ice for instance. A high level Rain of Ice can sunder a whole army, but if a shield is thrown up to cushion the blow, the General's army can still push on and lead the charge. These abilities can be cast anywhere within a minion's range and proximity as the General remains in the base.

Fortifications and Outposts

Another idea that would make Generals interesting would be to turn them into physcial outposts, think The Queen of Thorns taking root and opening her bud. She is underguard by her Honor-Guard while in this mode, these units can be deployed by her and are seperate from her minions that she produced back at the base. This mode leaves the General very vulnerable, but can become a big help to a team on the move. Because a General can then spawn units from their location to quickly aid in the battle, furthemore magical orbs can appear which can be remote links to the Shop and the Citadel for friendly Demigods to use so they don't have to run all the way back the base and keep the forward push strong.

I would also image a General in this state can emit an aura the increases the defense of Towers of Light, making them a suitable defensive line against Grunts.

Death of a General

A General's demise should not spell the end of his/her units. Instead, they will no longer have a leader to command them. Minions in this state can go "rogue", attacking anything and everything in thier proximity, even friendly Demigods. This should make Generals think twice about leaving the base and making themselves vulnerable to attack. Once a General comes back to life, they'll regain control over whatever survivers are left of their once proud army.

Unit Flexibility

Aside from just be able to purchase units and upgrade them, Generals should be able to choose from a wide range of different types of units, including Angels and Giants, which will allow them to make an army more tuned to their play style. If they want slow, lumbering tanks on the field - allow them to summon Giants early on, but of course restrick their numbers. I'd like to see many different units, allowing for Generals to make an army they really can call their own, and plays the way they want to.

And that to me, is what I feel a Genral should be about. Any questions? ^^

demigod

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Anthion
Bardus

Gigantic Wall o'Text Alert!

Part 1: Read this first!

I've pondered this for a few days, then made some notes and decided to post during some downtime today. My thoughts follow. I've highlighted the most important snippets of my arguments/thoughts in bold for those that dislike walls of text, and I've wrapped my internal monologues around them. Possibly confusing, but it's more of a stream of consciousness (read: I've mentally vomited onto my keyboard) than a design document.

A. These are thoughts, and thoughts only. I'm not trying to offend or downplay the ideas of anyone that thinks differently. I've written this to stimulate some discussion on the topic.

B. Later on I give some example of abilities I'd have for Generals. If I use numbers or status effects like stun, it's for illustrative purposes only and I don't take balance into account.

C. There's a lot to take in on the minions section. Please bear in mind that my thoughts on minions only count if the general is heavily nerfed enough that he can't take on Assassins as they do currently.

D. I'd love to suggest some small changes that are easily implemented. Unforunately I'm a blue sky thinker. I'm aware that what I suggest below would take some serious investment time and effort to make it work.

Part 2: Initial thoughts on how Generals currently play.

To start, I do not think that Generals work as they do now. They play like Assassins with minions. Either remove the Generals concept entirely (leaving you with some Assassins that have unique minions as part of their character mechanic) and balance around that, or make deep, sweeping changes to how Generals work. I do not think that simply making Generals less powerful and making their minions more powerful will change how they feel to play.

A. So we get rid of the Generals idea...

This is straightfoward and requires no further design work. You simply balance them as they are, removing the standard minions and taking into account their unique minions which can play a part of their class mechanic (Oak getting more powerful when he has more sprits on the map). Perhaps you speed up how quickly priests come into the fight to compensate for them not being on demigods.

B. So we redesign how Generals work...

With the current generals, I see two options. You can either redesign the General concept from the ground up, and then make changes to the current Generals when this is done.

Oak and Erebus (can't comment on the other two) do very well as assassins. Alternatively, convert Oak and Erebus into assassins as a quick fix, as is previously mentioned in this thread. (with some balance, naturally, and removing their non-unique minions) It would however necessitate the creation of some more generals, which would, I imagine, be very time consuming (design, creation, balancing).

I for one think that Erebus and Oak should stay generals. So I'm going to assume we redesign how Generals work and run you by my idea on how to do that.

Part 3: How I believe a General should play, and (this is relevant) the key elements of "Wargames". Note that this does not include how minions handled.

I believe that a General should not be able to take on an assassin on his own (without minions) and win. Generals should be less powerful stats-wise than an Assassin. I think that Generals should have combat abilities (they are demigods for crying out loud), but they should not be able to break an assassin or even a fellow general on their own. They should debilitate the target/s in some way, and/or energise allies (demigods, grunts, minions, defences, whatever) nearby. A General's skill tree should mainly (not only. I recognise the need for some direct damage skills) consist of buffs/debuffs and utility skills to support his allies and hinder his enemies. However, A General with a complete retinue of minions should be able to compete with an Assassin if played skillfully. They don't necessarily have to be able to beat them, but they should certainly hold their own.

If Assassins are supposed to constitute the RPG part of Demigod, (they do this very well, and this has been said before) let's consider the key gameplay mechanics that go into "Wargames" (I refuse to be drawn into an acronym argument over RTT or RTS or whatever) so we can see what gameplay elements we're looking for from Generals. These are the ones I can think of. If you can think of more, feel free to add some more.

A) Economy/Resource Management. I think we can all agree that this is fairly boring in comparison to killing things/blowing stuff up. It's a pacing mechanic, which I think we already have covered by Demigod's Gold, War Score, etc. I do not think this needs focussing on any further.

B ) Unit Micromanagement. This is currently what is missing in Generals and what I think we should try expanding on.

C) Point and Click interface (with Hotkeys). This is already covered by Demigod. It's how we're playing the game already. Hooray!

D ) Base Building. This is something I think doesn't fit with Demigod. There is perhaps scope for a General being able to buff nearby defences into doing more/taking less damage, but I don't think it's necessary to go building more defences/buildings.

From this (admitedly) small look at the Wargames genre, I think the main theme we need to explore with Generals is Unit Micromanagement.

I think that having direct control over the grunts/creep is a bad idea. They're a demigod's main source of juicy, delicious exp after all, so it seems unfair for a team to deny the enemy that. I think the creeps/grunts work well as they are. Which leaves us with Minions. I think if we can make using minions a more interesting and rewarding experience, they will form a valid alternative in gameplay to the straight up RPG of the Assassins. So let's look at how we can deepen the idea of minions...

Part 4: Minions and Micromanagement

I dislike the way that minions are handled at the moment. They are weak, and with the exception of priests (healing, I believe is a percentage of the demigod's HP, so that scales) they all get weaker as the game progresses (even taking into account the higher level, more expensive minions) and there is no incentive to keep them alive, because you can summon more at any time. Anything they can do I can do better, and usually quicker.

Minions start weak and end weaker. That you can pay a lot of money to make them less weak is besides the point. They're still weak, and there is no incentive to keep them alive other than a meat shield. I think that Minions should level with their demigod, and minions should gain veterancy when they fight and stay alive, becoming quicker, stronger and more durable. The scaled levelling allows minions to remain at the same level of strength througout the game and the veterancy allows skilled players to make their minions stronger than an unskilled player that lets their minions die, adding a vital reason not to treat your minions like a glorified meat shield. This can also mirror the current scaling system with four levels of minion: Standard, Veteran, Elite and Legendary. For this to work there would have to be a tangible difference between the effectiveness of each level of veterancy, otherwise no one will bother.

ALERT. THIS NEXT BIT IS MY FAVOURITE BIT. INSULT THIS BIT IF YOU WANT TO DASH MY HOPES TO BROKEN PIECES.

To further add to this in an effort to add some depth and micromanagement, I believe that every general should have access to overarching, generic, context sensitive minion abilities. These would be an additional row of 4 icons on the UI and be accessible using hotkeys Ctrl+1-4 (1-3 for the standard minions, and 4 for the character specific minions). These would have cooldown but no mana cost. When I say context sensitive I mean that each ability should have different effects when used on allied units from the effects when used on enemy units. For example...

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Minotaur Special Abilities: Frenzied Charge and Shield Wall. Cooldown 30 seconds.

When you use this ability on an enemy target, your minotaurs take a run up and charge the target, stunning it for one second and increasing their own attack speed by 10% for 5 seconds.

When used on a friendly target, the minotaurs form a ring around the target and brace their shields. Each minotaur guarding the target takes 5% of damage dealth against the target (to a maximum of 20%, as there are 4 minotaurs). Lasts for 10 seconds, or until the minotaurs or target die (whichever comes first). Works on friendly buildings and demigods (including the owner of the minotaurs).

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This gives a lot of flexibility and depth to how the General can use their minions without cluttering the UI up that much more than it already is. It also gives you more options on the skill trees (each general has their own specialised minion after all) to pick from; you can play offensively and defensively.

In addition, it allows you to make each General more different in playstyle; for example let's say Erebus is focused on dealing damage and attacking, and Oak is focused on support and assisting his allies. You could have skill trees for Erebus that allow his Minotaurs Frenzied Charge increased stun time and attack speed, and Oak could have something similar that upgrades his minotaur's Shield Wall while making them more durable. It could emphasise the type of playstyles you envisage for each demigod.

Part 5: Wrapping up

So that's my take on the matter. We want Generals to be slightly more RTS-like in how they play, so let's at least take the interesting bits of the RTS to play with; using your units to kill things. As always, I'd like this to be taken with a grain (or a shaker) of salt; it's a stream of consciousness, with my thoughts directly transcribed into binary for your pleasure.

Merry Christmas everyone, and thanks to OrleanKnight for pestering me to post.

Edit: Removed a string of characters creating a smiley where there wasn't one. Added some more spaces for clarity. WHERE'S THE PREVIEW OPTIONS GUYS?

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Minion Veterancy? Yes please! That would be an awesome addition to the General side of the game!

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totally agree mooglepies.

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assasins are fine as they are so noew we can try to balance generals by matching them off with an assasin 1v1. Every team should have just a good chance of winning if they get all assasins while their opponets get all generals.

These are two different things. Demigods do not have to be balanced 1v1. Every combination of a team should be balanced. There's quite a difference between these two.

Now onto Mooglepies:

First off, that's how you're supposed to post as a Beta Tester. Think about what you're doing, suggest changes to a degree where you actually provide the solutions to problems instead of just saying "this is a problem" (unless you can't come up with a solution after some serious thinking).

Now, Part 2, Subsection A:

I'd go for this, but limited to Erebus and Oak, possibly extended to Sedna and QoT depending on how far along they are. Do Generals later, but do them right later. However, if that's not the way GPG chooses to go, you're suggestion some great alternatives.

I disagree with the sentiment of keeping the Minion numbers as low as they are right now - it's doing a disservice to the engine and the premise. The whole Assassin/General duality lives off the fact that those two are truly different - the bigger the RTS part is compared to the Assassin part the better.

The context sensitive Minion abilites are a great idea, although giving the Generals skilltrees that influence those abilities is something I intensly dislike for several reasons:

It kind of assumes that a General can have all types of minions and does not have to make a choice, and it kind of shoehorns certain demigods into using certain types of mininos. It also takes up space in the skilltrees that could have been used for demigod unique skills, instead of generic minion skills.

Interface wise the ability button could be integrated into the select minion of x type button - a rightclick on "select all minons of type x" could bring up the ability targetter for said type of minions.

More Ideas non-Moogle related:

Also, as an example of very interesting General style support skills, Oak's heal/refresh AoE whenever he kills something is a great skill that does not benefit Oak on his own, while being far more potent when used in support of a big army.

Creating a Static point of AoE heal (tree of life for QoT?), static aura generators (eg Oak standard), static damage dealers (Rook construct Tower), destroyable lane-blocking walls (wall of thorns for QoT?), buffing auras (Torchbearer Auras), etc. are all skills that are very General-ish. More in that style would be very nice.

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I feel Mooglepies does a good job summing up a lot of lime-minded points on the thread. It's worth taking some notes from, as there are valid insights there and honest perspectives. I know it sounds bad, but I am in favor of sweeping changes to the General. I think it'd be nice to see it in practice, at least once, during this Beta so we can see just how well it plays.

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Some nice feedback here guys, thanks. I posted mainly to get discussion going again as it seemed to be going in circles or at least heading in that direction.

To answer Daton's comments:

Love the UI idea for activating minion abilities. It's better than another row of icons.

I love the idea of QoT having some sort of area denial skill, and had considered using something similar to Oak's standards giving buffs for my other post. There we have a point of agreement at least. For your other points, alas, I will list the following objections, and potential routes of compromise where I can see one.

I'll drop my bomb first. You say of the difference between Assassins and Generals (and I quote) "The whole Assassin/General duality lives off the fact that those two are truly different - the bigger the RTS part is compared to the Assassin part the better." I think I understand what you mean in this sentence, but feel free to correct me if I'm not. I disagree. Generals and Assassins are both Demigods, concepts of nature and power given form. I think that despite the difference in playstyles we expect and want from RTS compared with RPG, there needs to be a very strong link between Assassins and Generals, and to me that's the RPG levelling up and skill tree sytem, and is the exact reason that a General should still be a walking/floating omnipotent being of destruction compared with the creep monsters (Giants not withstanding). I'd like to see a lot of the RPG element carry down into the Generals, while their reliance on minions and micromanaging said minions to aid themselves and their team (and thus the RTS side of things) becomes their point of differentiation between Assassins and Generals.

Where you refer to the idea of converting Erebus and Oak into Assassins, while I do offer it as a potential solution, it is in fact not one I would like to see done. At all. Period. Conceptually I think Oak and Erebus "fit" better as Generals than as Assassins (Erebus as a Vampire with Thralls, Oak as a Soldier/Paladin with an army behind him). I do however agree with not wanting to do Generals quickly but wrong, but Slowly and Right. I too would rather they be converted to Assassins than done away with completely, or have generals done wrong.

I can see where you're going with wanting a higher minion count as well. it looks better (or more impressive anyway), it fits better conceptually with the rest of the game and I think it would work from a stats balancing perspective. You just have to spread the stats dealt out to account for it. After all, what's the practical difference between hitting one thing five times and hitting five things once? (attack speed perhaps) But, I respectfully disagree for a number of reasons.

A) One thing I have noticed from playing recent RTSs is that the less units you have, the more you want to look after them, and the reverse. This is especially true if veterancy is taken into account. You can develop an emotion bordering on affection for a unit if it's on its own and it's got high veterancy. With higher unit counts of less powerful individuals you can lose this connection. For me as a General, I want my minions to MATTER to me. I want it to hurt my cause when they die.

B ) Higher unit counts would be harder to distinguish between on the field, especially if you've already got high numbers of creep. This makes fielding them that much more difficult, and using abilities makes a great deal more sense with individuals or at most smaller groups.

As a compromise, would several squads of smaller groups be more palatable? so instead of having 4 individual Minotaurs running round a map you have two squads of four minotaurs running around the map. This would help with some of the proposals in my previous post in a way, because the squad could gain veterancy instead of the individuals. If there was then a way of reinforcing a squad back to full strength, you could at least attempt to pull a unit back before you lose them if things turn ugly (camping on the health crystal and having them come out of the citadel? perhaps one of the generals could have a specialised skill that could set up portable reinforcement bases). Alternatively, if we made minions bigger and beefier in appearance (I think a Minotaur High King should be substantially better looking than his subjects).

On your other point regarding not wanting Generals to have skill tree upgrades for specific minion's abilities, I fully take your point on it being inflexible (while the previous point in the post was to INCREASE flexibility).

Another thing we seem to agree with is that there is merit in Generals having a choice as to what units they have access to. Of these, I would prefer that Generals had access to 3 of, let's pick a random number, 6 standard types of minions per game, and having to make a choice, either at the start of the game or even before the game, at the demigod select screen, on which types of minions to take with them. With this you limit clutter on screen, (Your own demigod, 3 standard minion types and their own specialised minion is MORE than enough to worry about) and force a General to use a certain play style during that match only. Assassins are geared towards different things; Regulus to ranged combat, Unclean Beast to fast paced melee combat, but there is flexibility to be found depending on their skillset and/or gear. I do not believe a General should be able to play a "Jack of all Trades" but they should have to make real, difficult choices on how they intend to play the game in the same way that an Assassin has to (or should) make real, difficult choices on what gear they take. Again, we seem to agree on this.

Perhaps once you choose your demigod and minions, you could have some sort of "Minion Skill Tree" Where you're given a similar deal to what Demigods get now? perhaps an "Offensive" and a "Support/Utility" branch for each minion type that affects certain stats/abilities? That way it doesn't have to be limited by demigod, but by the minion type you select and how the you want to play using that minion.

Thoughts?

Edit: FFS, got caught out by the B ) = thing again. GARFLBARFL.

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I'll drop my bomb first. You say of the difference between Assassins and Generals (and I quote) "The whole Assassin/General duality lives off the fact that those two are truly different - the bigger the RTS part is compared to the Assassin part the better." I think I understand what you mean in this sentence, but feel free to correct me if I'm not. I disagree. Generals and Assassins are both Demigods, concepts of nature and power given form. I think that despite the difference in playstyles we expect and want from RTS compared with RPG, there needs to be a very strong link between Assassins and Generals, and to me that's the RPG levelling up and skill tree sytem, and is the exact reason that a General should still be a walking/floating omnipotent being of destruction compared with the creep monsters (Giants not withstanding). I'd like to see a lot of the RPG element carry down into the Generals, while their reliance on minions and micromanaging said minions to aid themselves and their team (and thus the RTS side of things) becomes their point of differentiation between Assassins and Generals.

Yeah you're right with that. Consider my point withdrawn and replaced with this ^.

As for your observation of recent RTS (RTT) games going for smaller, more emotionally involved units - you are right. Notice however, that those games also slip further and further into the direction of an RTT/RPG hybrid. Dawn of War 2's singleplayer campaign would be the epitome of that development. I'd rather see the Generals along the lines of traditional RTS, instead of the modern RTT that's almost going in the Party based RPG direction (literally so in DoW2's case). I can see how you might prefer the other though - it's a subjective preferrence.

I do like the compromise of having Squads - it would solve several problems at once. With squads, you could get numbers, satisfying the old school RTS fans (ie. me ), make abilities that involve several minions at once (your minotaur shield wall idea), as well as have an experience system that works - by allowing you to reinforce hurt squads at certain points (citadel, skill spawned static emplacement, etc.) it takes skill to preserve squads that have experience.

On your Minion Skill Tree point - couldn't that just be the General's inventory? General items that combine low-stat bonuses with minion specific (or minion type specific - eg. + ranged minion damage, + minion health, etc.) bonuses. Alternatively a Citadel style screen on which you have several minion upgrades.

Mechanics wise, I see the above system like this:

A general has 3 (?) slots for minion idols - a minion idol summons 1 squad of the specific minion type (squad size depedant on minion type). There's more than 3 different minion types availible, with no "minion type A mk 2" as is the case now, with the ability to double or triple on the same type of idol. Minions also gain experience and level up, gaining simple stat bonuses as they do. As per above, each minion type has one active ability (preferrably dual purpose, context sensitive).

In order to upgrade minions, a General has access to a "Minion Upgrade" screen, similar to the Citadel upgrade option. He pays for minion upgrades (which replace the Idol mk2/3/4) with War Score (or Gold, I'd prefer War Score).

Generals also have access to items from the shop, with a General unique selection that is statted as per above. Items are paid for with gold.

The above would also not require crippling amounts of new content like a base building General concept would.

See any problems with that?

Edit: I'd also love to see Generals have Special Minions as Favor Items - basically transforming their "Favor Item" slot into a "Favor Minion" slot. Think awesome stuff like being able to summon a Giant Lord, or walking Tower of Light (or Monkey Lord, kidding of course).

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I have no issues with the concepts above. A few points on execution though...

Keeping the idols means that you can sell them back and buy other types of minion later on (I'm against this. Assassin's can't change their skillset halfway through the game to match what they need, they work with what they've got), but I suppose by linking a demigod's War Score to Minion specific upgrades, you ensure that if they DO switch strategy halfway through and go for new minion types, they'll be disadvanted because they've not been upgrading that minion type. I like that a lot. It's balanced while adding flexibility. From your perspective though, wouldn't allowing each idol to summon two squads (summoning one each time, on a cool down) be better? More numbers and all. You could increase the cooldown to stop people exploiting it though. Say bump cooldown up to 2 minutes. Extra incentive not to lose your squad.

The other issue is using War Score for abilities. We don't know a lot about War Score. Is it a team pool? Do individuals accrue their own war score? Whichever way it ends up, there are problems with both ways in relation to minion upgrades. It means a general has to balance paying for citadel upgrades and paying for minion upgrades. Why should the General give up his hard earned war score to pay for citadel upgrades when his team doesn't waste any (assassins only use war score for citedel upgrades). Given that the reason War Score is being implemented in the first place is because of people having to balance citadel upgrades and paying for gear, is this really viable/desirable? If you'd like a seperate store entirely for minion upgrades, I think another form of currency would be in order, or you'd have to have the minion upgrades as the General specific gear, as you suggested. That's probably the easiest idea to make work, as you can just use gold for the gear to get the stat bonus and the minion upgrade. This is both restricting (want your favourite minion ability made better? You have to take it with THIS particular stat bonus) and liberating (You get to choose how you do it at least).

It is now 0300 where I live, so I will see how far this has got tomorrow (later today really).

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Quoting Mooglepies,

reply 8

On the two-time usage first - several people have expressed issues with not getting their full minion compliment after death, seeing as how Assassins don't have any short term negatives after death either. I'm inclined to agree since it does seem kind of unfair.

On the Idol switching - as you've correctly noticed, the fact that a General would specialize via the Minion Upgrade Panel would discourage it. In addition to that, selling an Idol to make room for a new one kills all minions spawn with that idol (I think it does right now, if not it should in this theoretical model). That will forfeit all the levels that Idols' squad has accrued.

As I see it, War Score would be identical to Gold in how it's handled - every player has his own pool. The difference being that War Score is gained by Flags, instead of Gold Mines - and (preferrably) by Structure kills instead of Demigod kills.

Having Generals more reliant upon War Score for their personal use and less personal use for Gold, while Assassins have a high dependance on Gold while they can freely spend War Score on Citadel upgrades is intentional. It encourages mixed teams. I'd rather not see yet another seperate resource implemented - I think that would really get in the way of the "quick to learn" part of "quick to learn, hard to master" that seems to be the core philosophy of Demigod.

Incidentally having Assassins need Gold, and Generals need War Score primarily, means each side has slightly different goals from each other, but does support each other as well: A General will want to secure War Score flags to gain more War Score - enemy Generals will want to prevent that. That means Assassins will find the most gold by protecting the Generals (basically using them as Bait, but that doesn't sound very nice). In the process of getting War Score for themselves, the Generals will also support the Assassins by providing them with War Score to upgrade the Citadel. It's nicely circular.

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First of all great ideas guys.

As for war score and gold I kind of think that giving generals one and assassins another pidgeon holes them into buying individual items or upgrading the citadel only. I don't think this will be a problem though if they can both still do both and it is just harder.

Also having like 6 type of minions that you can choose from would be spectacular and if they level up and have more life/damage as they are alive more people will play generals more as RTS and towards the true spirit of what I think most players would like.

Finally I am going to create two seperate post because there seems to be two main points that people switch between in this post, the role of the general and what can be done to make minions better.

Generals Role: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/334397

Minion Ideas: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/334398

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Slippery, we have no need for a new Thread for this. This one is fine.

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I like the idea of squads, but would that be easy to implement in this engine? If it messes with pathing/AI I'd prefer to have the single units as they are now, rather than a poorly done squad system.

On Generals' items:

Generals also have access to items from the shop, with a General unique selection that is statted as per above. Items are paid for with gold.

Would Generals still have access to the items they can buy now (gauntlets/armour/etc)? Or are these General unique items intended to replace them, while also being upgrades for minions? I'm a little confused as to what people are proposing for the new General item system.

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I believe that usually Squads is just like selecting a bunch, except that they are permently attached. So the pathing would be the same as grouping a bunch together, as it would for a permenent group. Just a hunch though.

I am a believer that Assassin and General gear should differ.

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Quoting Viq-MkII,

reply 12

I'd like to see them as replacements. They're still boots, gloves, etc. but they have different names and different stats. Lowers stats than comparable Assassin items but with added minion stat boosts.

Also, if they really can't get Squads to work in the engine it should of course be ditched and replaced with something that works.

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Viq, I believe the idea is that in place of the current item set, the Generals would have an entirely different set.

For ease of use in the beta however and as a stopgap, I would happily accept the same items with different effects.

Squads would move as they move in other RTS games; I wouldn't forsee a problem with it, but maybe the devs will chime in on that topic.

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While I agree with MUCH of what is being said here, a part of me wonders how unlikely any of this is to be implemented, since the game is so far beyond its conceptual stages and into production. I wish this discussion had been possible 6 months ago.

That being said, if some of these ideas came about, perhaps there could be 10 demigods: 4 assassins, 4 generals, and 2 hybrid characters (Erebus and Oak).

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Sturm: You are completely right, and I think that at some point the design lead is going to have butt in and give his opinion on how much it's feasible to add and/or take away.

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Yeah I kind of understand where you are coming from when you talk about how many changes can be made but this is the first real time we have experienced generals so i hope they would be open to a lot of changes so I guess we will see.

The point of creating new thread was to rid people of the 6 pages of peoples journal entries that oscillate between two different topics. This discussion is important so I figure it is better to sum up with a lot of peopel said so that it doesn't take hours for people to catch up on a discussion. I mean I don't care if it is my thread that people are posting on but you can make your own if you want people to read your post I just figured that instead of asknig other people to do it it was better to take the initiative. The links to those other posts are above but if you want to continue the discussion here feel free.

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Yes, sadly it's probably too late for most of these ideas.

Quoting sturmadler,

reply 16

That being said, if some of these ideas came about, perhaps there could be 10 demigods: 4 assassins, 4 generals, and 2 hybrid characters (Erebus and Oak).

That would indeed be my preferrence. I'd love to see what Sedna and QoT are like right now - are they basically the Erebus/Oak model, or do they have some unique twist to them?

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Well, rummaging around in the dgdata files turns up something called "Sedna's Healing Wind" (specifically in dgdata/units/minions/high priest --> abilities) which increases the amount a cleric heals. If that isn't just from a previous build, it would suggest that Sedna at least has skills that affect her summoned minions. Although, come to think of it, Oak's shield can affect minions, and I believe auras affect minions. Also, doesn't Surge of Faith affect everything anyway?

Maybe it tells us something, then again, maybe not.

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Some suggestions:

I think each general should have it's own spawn portal. He can spend money on that portal to increase the number of troops it spawns and to add different kind of troops, even surpassing the normal portals at the highest level.

He can't control those units directly, but he can set waypoints on the map that those units have to pass on their way to the enemy base.

Like before, each general should have his own squad of bodyguards. Those are stronger then those spawned from the portal and can be summoned as it is now while in the field.

Some generals should be able to control builders, which can place minor portals or towers on certain spaces on the map.

Edit:

And maybe only generals should be able to upgrade the citadel. Assassins should spend their money on equipment

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Perhaps the problem is not really about generals demigod but more about minions, creep, control and map design.

We are not asking complete redesign about gameplay but only:

About minions

-increase number, make squad
-increase diversity
-make them lvl up (or gain xp)
-create special minions buyable via the achievement item panel
-keep the idol system, but allow us to choose wich units we want to use (ie 2 tauren squad and 1 catapultasauri)

About creep

- ???

About General

-give them the ability to join their minions (like in DOW)
-separate item (or create a special category for general and assassin)
-more aura skill, rethink wich is assassin, wich is general ? (ie Rook could be a general ... ) or delete distinction between general and assassin

About map design

-make them more strategic (my idea was to create neutral fortress, allowing improvement by spendig money, not really base building but only heal crystal, gold mine, item shop, additional portal ... )
-differenciate land color from unit color, create contrast

About control and gameplay

-allow classic RTS function for general's minions (patrol, stop, disable/auto cast, secondary mod ... )
-make unit more differenciable (currently there is no difference between mk1 and mk2)
-make group selection via number (or another new system)

New idea:

Units diversity, create different race (good, evil, human-neutral-) each race with different units (same utility, different skin and minor stat change) combat, cavalry, ranged, siege, flying.

good: tauren, angel, treant, catapultasauri etc
neutral: antic human (greeko roman style) with catapult, swordman, pikeman, archer, cavalry, priest
evil: daemon, daemon, deamon

edit: lot of idea came from world in conflict(squad, teamplay, flag upgrade), warcraft 3(aura spell, hero and their spell), dawn of war(squad), battle for middle earth(easy rts), ...

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All this about generals staying in the base is a bad idea. If they are never vulnerable, it takes a lot of risk away, and overpowers them, as they can just stand by the health/mana regenerating crystal and just keep summoning units as they die.
I agree with sparica in that minions should come in greater numbers and in squad form. but as such, the individual units themselves should be weaker.
Greater focus on the generals unique units. Their gameplay should hinge around them; right now they are only supplements to the idols. it should be the other way around, the idols should really be something to use until you get your generals special units, which should be vastly better.
While each demigod only has four slots for abilities, it's be cool if there were more abilities to choose for them. Forces the player to make a hard decision if you can only choose 4 of 6 possibilities.(That'd work for assasins too I guess)

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Quoting stratobot,

reply 23

All this about generals staying in the base is a bad idea. If they are never vulnerable, it takes a lot of risk away, and overpowers them, as they can just stand by the health/mana regenerating crystal and just keep summoning units as they die.

I agree with sparica in that minions should come in greater numbers and in squad form. but as such, the individual units themselves should be weaker.
Greater focus on the generals unique units. Their gameplay should hinge around them; right now they are only supplements to the idols. it should be the other way around, the idols should really be something to use until you get your generals special units, which should be vastly better.
While each demigod only has four slots for abilities, it's be cool if there were more abilities to choose for them. Forces the player to make a hard decision if you can only choose 4 of 6 possibilities.(That'd work for assasins too I guess)

Some interesting points. I've commented on Squads already. I won't comment further on that particular mechanic. But I am going to comment on your thought on making individuals weaker. It all depends what you mean by that. Minions are horribly weak right now (for the most part), and even if they're in squads they need to be far stronger than they are now. I still firmly believe that minions need a serious buff in order to become useful; whether this is in utility or pure brute force, it needs to happen. Personally I'd prefer a mix, with some utility to maximise the opportunities to add some micromanagement. If you mean you'd like to see minions buffed, then put into squads (with the individuals having a proportion of that buffed minions strength) that's fine.

I also agree on a greater focus on the unique minions. There's indications of this happening with Oak's Soul Power abilitiy (his attackspeed/strength increases as he has more spirits on the field), but yes, there needs to be a greater focus on them.

I'm not sure how I feel about a greater number of abilities though. Part of me likes having a small number of skills and having to make good use of that small pool of ability. This also allows each demigod to be created and play very differently. While having a greater number of abilities per demigod would add some choice and flexibility (good things, I will freely admit) it could also create some similarities between each Demigod's playstyle where the abilities overlap. I think that would detract from the individuality you in each demigod at the moment.

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Quoting Mooglepies,

reply 24

Quoting stratobot,
reply 23

All this about generals staying in the base is a bad idea. If they are never vulnerable, it takes a lot of risk away, and overpowers them, as they can just stand by the health/mana regenerating crystal and just keep summoning units as they die.

I agree with sparica in that minions should come in greater numbers and in squad form. but as such, the individual units themselves should be weaker.
Greater focus on the generals unique units. Their gameplay should hinge around them; right now they are only supplements to the idols. it should be the other way around, the idols should really be something to use until you get your generals special units, which should be vastly better.
While each demigod only has four slots for abilities, it's be cool if there were more abilities to choose for them. Forces the player to make a hard decision if you can only choose 4 of 6 possibilities.(That'd work for assasins too I guess)

Some interesting points. I've commented on Squads already. I won't comment further on that particular mechanic. But I am going to comment on your thought on making individuals weaker. It all depends what you mean by that. Minions are horribly weak right now (for the most part), and even if they're in squads they need to be far stronger than they are now. I still firmly believe that minions need a serious buff in order to become useful; whether this is in utility or pure brute force, it needs to happen. Personally I'd prefer a mix, with some utility to maximise the opportunities to add some micromanagement. If you mean you'd like to see minions buffed, then put into squads (with the individuals having a proportion of that buffed minions strength) that's fine.

I also agree on a greater focus on the unique minions. There's indications of this happening with Oak's Soul Power abilitiy (his attackspeed/strength increases as he has more spirits on the field), but yes, there needs to be a greater focus on them.

I'm not sure how I feel about a greater number of abilities though. Part of me likes having a small number of skills and having to make good use of that small pool of ability. This also allows each demigod to be created and play very differently. While having a greater number of abilities per demigod would add some choice and flexibility (good things, I will freely admit) it could also create some similarities between each Demigod's playstyle where the abilities overlap. I think that would detract from the individuality you in each demigod at the moment.

All in all I agree. But why does everyone say minions are weak? The unique units are pityfull, but the normal minions are the reason you can kill assasins without using any or just one or two skills. Sometimes I even don't autoattack. Late-game they become useless though, so I think that can bend perspectives.

No squads please, it works good now, and squads don't add anything but lag for us lower-ends.

This is probably a repeat but: You have three idol slots, you can fill each with one of the 6 units. But you can also take two of the same. So double archers+priest. Or triple giant(Yes...!). A high CD and manacost would make people care for their units.

P.S. I play with creep strenght to high, as I think it creates the most strategy, but does this also buff minions?

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