What do the AIs and George Bush have in common?

October 2, 2006 6:20 AM from

They both like to launch discresionary wars without a plan.

Fortunately, we can teach the AI. Just finished my first metaverse game on Obscene and CPU intensive AI turned on. The Dratha colonized a low quality planet in my home star system.

I can see the AIs mind at work getting frustrated at the undo influence my civilization with a puny military was exerting on one of its planets. It eventually said ENOUGH and declared war.

Had the AI placed its 20 starshps within striking distance with enough transports took invade, it would have been a quick exit for shushu.

instead its fleet tok 20 turns to arive, and by then had run into a Russian winter defense (speed kills posting coming). The Ai lost the war. My ally did the same thing a bit later, this time declaring war, but allowing me to conquer all of the target planets.

1) The AI should never delare war without transports built
2) The AI should never declare war without being able to assault a target on the first turn after declaring war
3) Preferrably, the AI should never declar war without being able to take a planet on the first turn, unless the war declaration was to kill starbases/freighters.

29,428 views 25 replies

Reply #1 October 2, 2006 7:40 AM from

GalCiv2 Forums Top

political views aside i definetnly agree that the ai declaration of war should hurt alot more than it does now. haveing half of your border fleet destroyed within the first few turns of a war will definenlty up the level of the ai

Reply #2 October 2, 2006 7:41 AM from

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Strange one that as every time i have had an AI declare war on me they have been just outside my 'sphere of influence' and have been on me in a couple of turns max!

Reply #3 October 2, 2006 8:02 AM from

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If your influence is overwhelming, or you get most of your trade from the AI they can really hurt you by declaring war, especially if they have freighters going to other AI players more than you.

You will be forced to rebuild freighters, prepare for war, build warships, etc. Hopefully, they would tend to have more fleets avaible for the initial assault, but an economic crippling can be a good first salvo.

Also, by you focusing on the war you may loose track of research or building plans. For example, you stop building constructors for your economy starbase in order to add a military starbase or battleships.

Reply #4 October 2, 2006 9:38 AM from

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This is not the place for political commentary. You can do that all you like on JoeUser.com, Stardock's blog site. We don't need idealogical flamewars here.

I will be watching this thread. Keep it on the topic of the AI.

Reply #5 October 2, 2006 10:40 AM from

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What do the AIs and George Bush have in common?
By (Citizen) Douglas Parr

They both have bad grammar.

Reply #6 October 2, 2006 10:51 AM from

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I thought the version 1.3 patch addressed the problem? I've been swarmed a couple times since installing it.

And though while I'm all about bashing Bush, I just can't do it in the context of GCII without feeling really, incredibly lame.

Reply #7 October 2, 2006 11:03 AM from

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This is not the place for political commentary. You can do that all you like on JoeUser.com, Stardock's blog site. We don't need idealogical flamewars here.

Thanks Kryo.

Strange one that as every time i have had an AI declare war on me they have been just outside my 'sphere of influence' and have been on me in a couple of turns max!

This is the same thing I have seen. They alway appear prepared for war to me. But I always bribe them to stay the war until I am ready so I could be seeing it differently.

Reply #8 October 2, 2006 11:11 AM from

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I would like to ask the developpers if it is in the realm of possibility, with our current level of software developpement, that we could not only build an AI that reacts to our actions (because, let's face it, the AI is currently very good to REACT, 400% more than most game I played), but to establish a general strategy, thinking on a chain of actions as a whole, rather than going for the targets of opportunity or usual "fleet + transport".

I mean, look at my actual game. The Altarians simply send some fleet in my territory, trying to go for the unescorted starbases. They don't seem to have a strategy in mind. Then, once in a while, I see 4-5 transport fleet going to 3-4 different targets, with disseminated fleets..

I have been at war with the Altarian for about 2 year (maybe more, I don't really keep track), and at first, I was concerned that they may attack the 3-4 planets near their borders that I grabbed from Minor Species or other major civs. These planets were under-defended, and I already planned to "leave them behind". Fight to the last ship, making as much damage as possible, but don't sacrifice my strategic position on it..

And they sent about 20 transports... at the Terrans, who were like 10 sectors away! I had all the time to intercept them, destroy every invasion fleet. Not ONCE the planets were more treathened by more than 1-2 fleets + 2 transports. Eventually, I used those planets as range-extender to make raids in their territory..

If the AI had focused on these target, really tried to beat me planet by planet, they would have seized these planets.

Also, WHEN it happened the AI sent transports against me, it always failed to conquer the planet. I would understand it if I mis-calculated the # of troop required to take a planet, but the AI should know better. Also, they don't try to cripple me by targeting the planets with:
- The highest production
- Highest cash-income
- Highest Research

So, in short:

- The AI should have a masterplan at war. It should begin as soon as they decide "I shall conquer Race X", until Race X finally dies
- Masterplan should be spread in those steps:
-- Build up transports + attack ships, and identify the best planets
-- Try to make friends with Race X's friends
-- Position fleets within striking distance to take at least 3-4 planets in at least 5 turns. The target-planets should be prioritized as followed:
1) Target with Strategic position (if Race X has planets within the attacker's core worlds, or right at its border, or even isolated planets which offer strategic advantages overall (maybe against future ennemy))
2) Offers the highest short-term advantage to conquerors and cripples the ennemy. I mean: planet with high productions (Manufacturing Capital, I'm looking at you!)
3) Offers the highest long-term advantage to conquerors. I mean: tech-focused planets
4) Highest population centers/economy/culture powerhouses.

The AI should not focus on the planet the least defended, but the planets which offers the more to conquer. There is a REASON why you defend more or less some planets.

-- The AI make is move, focusing on no more than 3 planets at the time. He shall not spread his transport fleets, and he should concentrate his battle fleet in power-packs, to gang-up powerful ennemies.
-- The AI shall accept a relapse (peace treaty) if he doesn't have any more transports but have the field advantage. Again, he shall not declare way except: he has to strike to defend or: he can finish the specie within 10 turns.

The AI has an incredible advantage over us: he can calculate much much more quicker than us, feeble humans. He should be able to plan how long an invasion is supposed to last, how many transports he need, etc..

- We need also a new rating: Soldering. I would like to know easily how well-trained are my troops compared to race X.

- If the AI is defending (which means, he didn't had the time to prepare his masterplan, but is forced into war), he should not sit and wait for the invaders to come to him. He should be aggressive, simply sending packs of fleet to stop conquering fleet, using his # advantage as much as possible.

I don't know WHAT is possible in all of this. I know AI programming is already tough ennough, but that's the main AI's weakness i've seen so far. If you do that, you will change opposing AI forever.

Reply #9 October 2, 2006 11:23 AM from

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This is not the place for political commentary. You can do that all you like on JoeUser.com, Stardock's blog site. We don't need idealogical flamewars here.

WOW... SICK BURN!!! Hurts, doesn't it.. (Sizzles)

Should try raising the AI intelligence. You know, personally, I like to play againts AI opponents that are actually challenging. Sure, it might be fun going to a play ground and beat up 7 year olds for their lunch money. Then go on the message board and type up a "what does a 7 year old and al gore have in common?" thread, but is it really needed?

What I'm saying is... Unless you play the AI on a higher intelligence level, they will make mistakes. Now, if you see the AI make that mistake on the highest setting, that's something to talk about.

Reply #10 October 2, 2006 12:47 PM from

GalCiv2 Forums Top

FYI - I was in favor of the war, I just wish we had built transports first.

The focus is on the AI. I am always interested when computer AI's can model real world events without actually meaning to. The first time I saw this was the Original Railroad tycoon modeling the Gordon Gecko 80's.

Unless you play the AI on a higher intelligence level, they will make mistakes.

Achillus, I did point out that my settings were obscene and CPU intensive AI. My little Icons at least back up my obscene claim.

Cykomyr, I was looking to post something along the same lines as you, but was afraid that, err, it would be a long post...

an additional thought I had was: Once the AI determines that it wants to declare war, it needs to determine which type - Starbase destruction, Financial Ruin, or conquest, general attrition. The fleets should then be positioned accordingly, and peace offered when mission complete. I limited my simple set of rules to Conquest, but I think an equivalent short list can be found for each

Reply #11 October 2, 2006 2:15 PM from

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Achillus, I did point out that my settings were obscene and CPU intensive AI. My little Icons at least back up my obscene claim.

I really don't play metaverse, so I don't look at the little icons. My icons are way off.. I'm way pass beginners.. okay.. not that way off, i made my way to two levels higher than that. But since I tend to play at work (shhh) I can't upload to the Metaverse.

Anyways, I guess the AI will always be limited. The CPU can only go so far as to emulate human intelligence. Who knows, maybe when a dedicated AI processor is in the market will we see advance AI algorithm that will eventually evolve to full human intelligence level. But i caution on this, remember TERMINATOR!

Reply #12 October 2, 2006 3:12 PM from

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The AI is playing the smartest at level intelligent(Tough) with CPU intensive algorithms enabled; above this level the AI just gets bonuses. Which brings up the question, What is the Difference between "Masochistic", "Obscene", and "Suicidal"?

Reply #13 October 2, 2006 3:33 PM from

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I see three main problems (some have been pointed out before)

1. Lack of transports at beginning of war
2. Transports are often unescorted
3. Poor target selection

The first two are pretty self-explanitory, but the third is particularly evident. In a recent game, I had a Torian transport within strike range of an undefended planet. However, it bypassed the easy target in favor of moving toward a planet deep inside my empire. So, rather than loosing a class 10 frontier planet, I had plenty of time to intercept and destroy the transport in space. (Actually, I only needed one more turn to intercept but I was powerless to save the planet, if the AI had attacked.)