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Default Systems Comprehensive Modification Pack (DSCMP)

modding
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Spartan
Spartan
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #26 September 13, 2006 4:23:55 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
We had similar dilemmas when trying to develop a balanced approach. That is why heavy testing was necessary. However time proved to rather scarce for the both of us.
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #27 September 13, 2006 4:56:44 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I should have been more precise... What I meant to say was that any balancing rationale on the part of the *original* designers seems scarce.

In terms of what we can do, the field seems wide open, but generally simpler seems better. Another annoyance I noticed about the original race design was that almost all the races have a tech without having one of the prereqs required by the tech tree! I'd like to avoid doing that in our new model.

Just looking at the costs of the techs, 700 tech points seems like a reasonable number to shoot for, given that the Iconians start with 655 points, and have skipped a couple of techs.

There are also a lot of basic techs that almost everyone has. They include:

Xeno Engineering Industry 50
Xeno Research Pure Research 20
Stellar Cartography Sensor 25 95 for group

New Propulsion Tech Propulsion 25
Hyper Drive Propulsion 50 75 for group

In the interests of simplicity, it would seem that we should just give everyone these techs, and mark 170 (95+75 for the two groups listed above) out of our 700 points as being spent with 530 remaining.

I'll post some ideas about that one tomorrow.

One possibility that occured to me was to be able to turn ability points into tech points and vice versa, but it seemed to me like that would just make it harder to balance over all.

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Spartan
Spartan
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #28 September 13, 2006 6:41:52 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
OK. We were working on the tech balancing and prerequisite oversight aspect when the project got put on the back burner. We were also considering linking some tech to a specific political party at a later date.
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #29 September 13, 2006 1:34:52 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
There's certainly a lot to think about in all of this. Linking tech and political parties is an interesting idea. The devil is in the implementation, of course...
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Spartan
Evil Stormbringer
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #30 September 13, 2006 2:24:50 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Now, in order to remodel the races, we need to make a decision in order of how much to "value" being good vs. evil, and we need to think about whether we try and preserve the original advantages of the races in "vanilla" (pre-modded) Gal Civ II v1.3.


I had posted something related to the good/evil concept awhile ago but I agree completely, the evil aligned characters get a definite advantage. Just like in the real world, only the evil seem to get ahead! I myself prefer playing as evil since it allows me to be more realistic when dealing with opponents, ie, destroying them. Being benevolent isn't my bag baby. But with respects to a mod for good and evil, maybe leave evil bonuses as they are, allow them to be powerful and game altering if you would like to say that. What needs to be focused on is what kind of benefits would being "good" get you.
Obvious advantages would be diplomacy and morale bonuses, maybe some kind of defense bonus for defending a home planet, terraforming bonuses of some sort (think ecologically friendly), ship defenses not weapons (at least nothing "lethal")of some specialized nature, and finally (since I am at work, ha)maybe some kind of bonus, silly things like "karma" and such. Again, I am at work and can't be too specific.
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #31 September 13, 2006 8:33:02 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
You're at work, and you can't be too specific? Are they going to hunt you down and terminate you? Or is it just that work turns your brain to mush? (; (Like I should talk, I'm screwed up enough that I'm not working at all right now... and I've certainly had my share of jobs that have turned MY brain to mush... SAP system administration, just say NO.)

One of the obvious things that evil races should probably not get is an influence bonus, I would think. It's so much easier to convince people that you're a nice bunch of cuddly fuzzy aliens when you don't rip people's heads off at the dinner table. The difference of having people over TO dinner as apposed to FOR dinner is such a subtle distinction some times... =D

Those thoughts look like a pretty good start. I wonder, though, if you could limit some political parties to good / neutral / evil or not.
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #32 September 13, 2006 10:00:57 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Okay, here is a list of proposed limitations on racial bonuses by alighment:

Good
Morale up to 100% max
Influence up to 100% max
Planet Quality up to 100% max
Loyalty up to 100% max
Diplomacy up to 100% max
Economics up to 100% max

No Weapons bonuses
No Military Production bonuses

Espionage at ½ max
Interest Rates at ½ max


Neutral
Morale up to ½ max
Influence up to ½ max
Planet Quality up to ½ max
Loyalty up to 100% max
Diplomacy up to 100% max
Economics up to 100% max

Weapons up to ½ max
Military Production at ½ max

Espionage at 100% max
Interest Rates at 100% max


Evil
No Morale Bonuses
No Influence Bonuses
No Planet Quality bonuses
Loyalty up to ½ max
Diplomacy up to ½ max
Economic Bonuses at ½ max

Weapons at 100% max
Military production at 100% max

Espionage at 100% max
Interest Rates at 100% max


However, this list as it stands is clearly biased against Evil which is exactly the opposite problem from what we had before. Any suggestions for balancing this out?
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Spartan
BradenK
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #33 September 13, 2006 10:55:15 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think only having 0 to 1/2 to 100 is a bit... well I think that might be the problem. You can be a good race with a military bonus... And your influence could be fear, not just being nice.

While good should have a higher influence, I think evil should still have SOME influence. The same goes for a number of the other abilities.

The Planet Quality I understand, as an evil race is way more likely to rip apart an enviroment for their cause than a good race.

In LOTR you've got Saruman taking apart the forest, in Star Wars, you've got the Empire turning numerous planets into wastelands to build ships. I think detail needs to be paid attention too on the good/nuetral/evil bonus caps.

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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #34 September 14, 2006 12:00:55 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Okay, this version seems a lot less extreme... please take a look:

GOOD
Morale up to 100% max
Influence up to 100% max
Planet Quality up to 100% max
Economics up to 100% max

Weapons up to ½ max
Military Production at ½ max
Espionage at ½ max
Interest Rates at ½ max

NEUTRAL
Morale up to 75% max
Influence up to 75% max
Planet Quality up to 75% max
Economics up to 75% max

Weapons at 75% max
Military production at 75% max
Espionage at 75% max
Interest Rates at 75% max

EVIL
Morale up to ½ max
Influence up to ½ max
Planet Quality up to ½ max
Economic Bonuses at ½ max

Weapons at 100% max
Military production at 100% max
Espionage at 100% max
Interest Rates at 100% max
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Spartan
Evil Roy
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #35 September 14, 2006 1:26:00 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
i reckon neutral, by nature, has less influence than either good or evil. is there a social production bonus? am very interested in your proj btw
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #36 September 14, 2006 2:52:57 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
There is a social production bonus... of course. It's just that right now we have some moderate balance here... I noticed several other items that seem potentially more "good" oriented than evil. Do you have any suggestions on that front?
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Spartan
BradenK
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #37 September 14, 2006 3:20:01 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I still don't know about evil influence... Influence can be gained by projecting strength and being cruel, too.. sometimes, this can be even more powerful than good.
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Spartan
Evil Stormbringer
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #38 September 14, 2006 12:19:26 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Definitely give the evil races an influence bonus, after all, it is their evil nature that would make lesser races quiver, thereby giving the evil race an influence bonus only, nothing for morale. And on the topic of morale, even though the citizens of an inherently evil race may not be "behind" them in what they do, surely fear of what the government might do to people who are less than enthusiastic, well, you get the point. In that respect evil civ's maybe would have a morale bonus of some sort. Again, there are so many variables and ways to look at the differences, as well as similarities, between good and evil that maybe modifiers shouldn't really be looked at that much. Maybe something along the line of certain techs, maybe some sort of ally bonus for good alignments. Example, a "good" race finds themselves facing total destruction. Before the death blow can be dealt however, allies appear and fend off the onslaught. I'm working on more, but for the moment chew on this one a little.
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Spartan
Evil Roy
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #39 September 14, 2006 10:44:06 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
how 'bout

Morale Good/Evil
Influence Good/Evil
PQ Good
Economic Neutral
Weapons Evil
M Prod Evil
S Prod Good
Espionage Neutral
Interest Neutral
Loyalty Good/Evil
Research Neutral
Diplomacy Good

or some such......
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Spartan
kfoelsch
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #40 September 22, 2006 5:44:32 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Just so you know, I'm still plugging away. I've got a preliminary load of the abilities and the races going that maintains some of the original flavor. Next up: the new political parties.
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Spartan
S1Genocide
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #41 September 22, 2006 7:09:31 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Sounds very good and very differant from INVADER-Mod.

Do you have a webhost or are you uploading to metaverse? (I have a webhost if you want to upload it to CDG group.)

Mercantile: Trade 30%, Economics 20%, Trade Routes 1

Range & trade works for political partys? I didn't even think of this.

Populists: Morale 30%, Sensors 20%, Propulsion 10%

Why no population growth fof this party? Do you believe pop growth is to powerfull a bonus for populists?

INVADER-Mod.
Mercantile: Trade 20%, Economics 20%,
Populists: Morale 20%, Population Growth 20%,
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #42 October 30, 2006 2:47:20 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Aloha!

I hope all is going well with the project. Sadly I have been way to busy the past several weeks to even check in on the forums. I sent the beta files to two people to take over the project however I notice the last was over a month a ago. Did the project die or was it renamed?
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Spartan
Spartan
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Reply #43 January 8, 2008 7:21:51 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Apparently the people I sent the files to vanished from the community. I have sent several emails to the old addresses I used but the mail comes back or is never responded to.

Anyway, I will be restarting things again soon with Gauntlet as my partner in crime if everything goes as planned. Sadly enough I dont have the original files anymore (all that work wasted) so I will have to start over.
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Spartan
thehandofzarquon
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #44 January 8, 2008 6:42:58 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Apparently the people I sent the files to vanished from the community. I have sent several emails to the old addresses I used but the mail comes back or is never responded to.

Anyway, I will be restarting things again soon with Gauntlet as my partner in crime if everything goes as planned. Sadly enough I dont have the original files anymore (all that work wasted) so I will have to start over.


Wow, I totally forgot about this project. I swore you sent me the files for the mod, or at least, I remember asking for them... but I'm not seeing them anywhere in my gmail account. Maybe I didn't get them after all.

Still, if you need anymore help, I'll be happy to help with the project when I'm not busy with college, that is.
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Spartan
Spartan
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #45 January 8, 2008 9:59:40 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Great. The more the better. Sadly enough all the excel tables, reference manuals and concept matrices have disappeared into the digital void at least on my end. So a lot of rework will have to be done. I'm glad to have as many people involved as possible.
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Spartan
hongdida
Join Date 07/2014
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Reply #46 July 21, 2014 10:29:30 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums

Quoting Spartan,
reply 15

Things are progressing nicely we have finished all the basic data matrix's and fully developed our ability and penalty system.

Currently we are in the process of establishing new variable sets for each race, both major and minor, as well as political parties and star systems.

We will also release our default data matrix for the community as stand alone PDF and barcode Excel workbook files, so others can use it/them as a quick reference resource for mod projects.

 

Sorry, I found this post via google and I wonder how many applications, apart from excel and pdf, have you released to use the default data matrix? Thanks, I did not find the information via your site searching.

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