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Not acceptable and not much you can do about it.

By on July 27, 2014 5:06:54 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002
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The FBI has been using drones for some time probably about 9 years). Years, in fact. When Sen. Paul (R-KY) started asking questions about that, the FBI decided to comply with the law and did the requisite “Privacy Impact Analysis”…which is on one hand pretty funny and on the other hand pretty serious. Since the FBI started the drone business in 2005, and deployed them in 2006, there had to be a PIA (which I’m sure the FBI and any other Agency receiving one considers them) and records show that at least one was completed. It should be available by FOIA – at least on line, by default.

Therefore, Muckrock filed a series of FOIA’s because, well, that’s what Muckrock does to obtain those PIA/PIAs. It even fought a tough lawsuit for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW).

So? They got the PIA, right? Nope.

All those PIA documents have been redacted in full. Even the cover page. Turns out there’s a Catch-22 or Rule-22, if you will which isn’t totally outrageous. Some things have to remain secret, although you have to really wonder just who gets to decide that.

“Justice Department guidelines allow agencies to withhold PIAs if publication would “reveal classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information (e.g., potentially damaging to a national interest, law enforcement effort, or competitive business interest).” Department guidelines require separate justification for keeping PIA findings from the public, but the FBI did not release any such justification documents, either.” – Muckrock

So they refiled because the FBI didn’t even bother to justify the non production of documents. Just what that will accomplish is unclear.

So what’s funny about the whole thing?

When asked to clarify the wholesale redaction of the privacy impact assessment, the FBI cited its litigation with CREW as a block on responding. "Unfortunately this matter is pending litigation," wrote Christopher Allen of the FBI Office of Public Affairs, "so I will not be able to comment."- Muckrock

In other words, “Do drones invade your privacy? Sorry, that’s private”.

So much for the promised transparency.

Btw, by writing about privacy, I’ve probably triggered NSA interest: Check this Make Use Of article out. Not that they need an excuse…they can always lose the HDD.

 

Sources:

http://www.neowin.net/news/fbi-redacts-entire-drone-privacy-assessment

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2014/jul/24/fbi-refuses-release-drone-privacy-assessment/

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/interest-privacy-will-ensure-youre-targeted-nsa/

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July 29, 2014 2:38:12 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting the_Monk,

Hell if that were the case the world truly would be in a sad, sad state.......hehe

And... it's not?!?!

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July 29, 2014 2:44:44 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Daiwa,

And... it's not?!?!

 

Well excuse me!  For once I was trying to not only see the dark side of humanity........geez!  

 

EDIT:

There....I edited my other post. 

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July 29, 2014 2:47:08 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting the_Monk,




Quoting Borg999,



I say scrap morality and focus on ethics.

Morality has too close an association with religion.




 

Since 'ethics' finds its root in the Greek word 'ethos' (moral character, habit, nature, custom) is there really a need to differentiate?  Besides it's not like religion owns morality.  Hell if that were the case the world truly would be in a sad, sad state.......hehe   

The actual definition doesn't matter. It's how people (the masses) perceive it.

It's too easy to push buttons when certain words are used.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Are-you-a-victim-of-push-button-phrases

 

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July 29, 2014 3:44:06 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting the_Monk,

Well excuse me!

There's no excuse for you. 

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July 29, 2014 3:58:07 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

   My wife agrees wholeheartedly with your assessment! 

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July 30, 2014 1:27:15 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

 

I knew there would be disagreement with regard to my thoughts on morality.

It was expected because most fail to grasp the concept of morality.

Strangely enough, however, we each are inherently born with it.

Somewhere inside of us we know it is wrong to kill; wrong to steal; wrong to commit adultery; wrong to sexually abuse/harm children.

We know this not from religious indoctrination, or some cultural belief.  We just know it is wrong.

There need not be national borders/international differences in morality... there need NOT be a religious or cultural reason for morality.

All there need be is human decency, and to listen to our inner selves when we are tempted to do wrong.

I sure as hell need not go into a church, synagogue or temple to discover morality, I was born with it.

I was not indoctrinated by my parents through some religious ideology.... both are/were atheists.

As I stated, morality can and does exist in the absence of religion, so for me, tying religion to it is just an excuse to argue, raise conflict and find reason not to comply with the ideal of others.

Without our morality, the negative aspects of humankind have room to grow and flourish... crime and corruption become the norm and the innocent ALL become potential victims.

So yeah, extract the religious/cultural inferences and let morality/conscience be our compasses to bettering our lives.

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July 30, 2014 2:21:54 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting starkers,

I was born with it.

You weren't 'born with it'.  The only thing you're born with is 'animal instinct'.

Common sense, human nature, morality, and all the other equivalents are LEARNED either by association, education, experience or trial-and-error.

A willingness to be a part of [your] society determines how closely you follow its rules/ideals/mores.

Those who don't will often regard themselves as 'individuals', 'rebels' or even 'superior than thou' but more often than not they are simply categorized as criminals and treated as such.

 

Animal instinct is what protects your offspring/family/breeding partner/s.  How vigourously you do that determines how violent or even 'immoral' you may be perceived by others.

 

Self-control, reason, common sense, decency, morality ....they're all learned.

The only bit you got right is there's no need for religion [of any flavour] to be involved in the process of learning...

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July 30, 2014 6:01:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I am going to have to side with Jafo on this one. Racism is taught, as is acceptance, violence is taught, just like gentleness, etc, etc.

Dr. Gabor Mate on Attachment and Conscious Parenting

 

 

On the other hand, Charlie Chaplin has an inspirational message along the lines of what Starkers is talking about.

 

I can watch this one repeatedly, and it still gives me goosebumps.

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July 30, 2014 8:35:26 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Quoting starkers,
reply 56

I was born with it.

You weren't 'born with it'. The only thing you're born with is 'animal instinct'.

Like I said, most fail to grasp the concept.

And like somebody once said, there is no point trying to teach humanity about its essence when the point of redemption passed and all that prevails in inhumanity, devoid of humility, morality and conscience as a compass to guide it.

I will admit, I don't like many people because so few deserve a second thought... and hardly any merit a third.

For anyone to warrant a fourth thought, well they have had to be one exceptional human being.

However, given all the lives that have passed before us throughout history, the percentage needle has barely moved with regard to those I managed to find any genuine resect for, such is my disdain and disgust for the majority of arsewipes claiming to be a part of the human race

For mine, 95% of the world's population could be instantly wiped from the face of the planet, such has been its failure to behave in a manner deserving of an existence.

If anyone gets a clear indication from my posts here that I dislike the majority of animals that bear a strong resemblance to homosapiens, don't bother second guessing.  I probably have greater compsassion for a pit of venomous reptiles given some the abysmal specimens of the human race I've had the misfortune to enounter, know of

And why do I feel the human race is a non-redeeemable collection of scum dwellers who consider themselves first and foremost? 

Because they discarded their morals, decency and scruples for greed, self-importance and a belief that crime, corruption and impropriety is the way forward.

Another reason I dislike humans so much?  Way too many bewlive they have a god-given right to this, that or whatever  BOLLOCKS!!!   There's no such thing as a god-given right..  Sadly, however, too many of those who decry/denounce religion, etc, are the ones who insist they have this and that god-given right..

So yeah, add hypocrisy to the growing list of human traits which deserve abhorrence and our perpetual disgust.

 

Anyway,stay tuned because tomorrows lecture will concern assassinating 99% of the world's objectionable leaders, getting away with it and installing a world government run by far-sighted giraffes who are bound to stand out in the crowd and see it coming.

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July 30, 2014 9:26:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, it's not so simple as "are we born with these, or aren't we?" Things like acceptance, morality, decency, and yes, racism too, are indeed things we're born with, at least to some degree.

Human beings are social animals, and for a social animal to be successful as a species, it must have significantly different behavioural patterns than a non-social animal.  Compare a lion (social) versus a leopard (non-social), or a wolf (social) versus a bear (non-social).  The social animals have ingrained in them behaviour based on the idea that their own success is intimately tied to the success of those around them.  However, that's typically limited to their pride/pack/whatever, and they also have ingrained in them both a strong devotion to their own group and a fierce competition with other groups.  Such is the origin of intra-species "racism" - it's essentially tribalism, to ensure that the genes of those in your group prevail, since they're more closely tied to your own genes.  Modern human society is much more complex than the tribal environment where these behaviours originated, and these concepts of "us" and "them" get expressed in vastly different ways by different people as we try to adapt to this new reality.

Now, human beings have an incredible ability to learn, well beyond that of most other animals.  That allows an individual human, based on environment, upbringing, experience, etc. to build additional morals on top of those baseline ones, and it also allows them to sweep aside those morals.  More so than any other species, we have the ability to override our behavioural tendencies.  But they're still there, and still play a big role in modern society.

 

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July 30, 2014 9:30:41 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting starkers,

Like I said, most fail to grasp the concept.

You may need a mirror....

 

You enter the world with nothing.

You leave the world with nothing.

Along the way, experiences shape you.

 

There is no intrinsic inherent 'morality'.  That is a myth.  Humanity is a collective noun.  Humane is an adjective ostensibly a descriptor of the noun.

All else is interpretation and interpolation....

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July 30, 2014 10:59:47 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Jafo,


Quoting starkers,

Like I said, most fail to grasp the concept.



You may need a mirror....

 

You enter the world with nothing.

You leave the world with nothing.

Along the way, experiences shape you.

 

There is no intrinsic inherent 'morality'.  That is a myth.  Humanity is a collective noun.  Humane is an adjective ostensibly a descriptor of the noun.

All else is interpretation and interpolation....

Yes, in the age old nature vs. nurture argument, it's all nurture!..."tabula rasa".

 

This is a case where bringing up Hitler and other Eugenics types would be meaningful.

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July 30, 2014 11:38:44 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Careful with that axe, Eugene ...

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July 30, 2014 11:51:45 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Careful with that axe, Eugene ...

Can I use Maxwell's silver hammer instead?

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July 30, 2014 4:03:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Jafo,

You weren't 'born with it'.  The only thing you're born with is 'animal instinct'.

Common sense, human nature, morality, and all the other equivalents are LEARNED either by association, education, experience or trial-and-error.

A willingness to be a part of [your] society determines how closely you follow its rules/ideals/mores.

Those who don't will often regard themselves as 'individuals', 'rebels' or even 'superior than thou' but more often than not they are simply categorized as criminals and treated as such.

 

Animal instinct is what protects your offspring/family/breeding partner/s.  How vigourously you do that determines how violent or even 'immoral' you may be perceived by others.

 

Self-control, reason, common sense, decency, morality ....they're all learned.

The only bit you got right is there's no need for religion [of any flavour] to be involved in the process of learning...

 
 
That's an interesting topic, and could take up a whole thread for itself. I think this is probably right, and I have no scientific evidence to the contrary, but I wonder if there are traits you are "born with" that makes a person more inclined or to have more of an aptitude to learn those behaviors. Society dictates the rules of morality, but could they be inherent either for or against? As a father I can't help but see the differences with my kids in how they accept morality, personality traits that they've had since shortly after birth. Not sure if I can take credit for the big heart and care of my second daughter (she's like an angel- and that is said from an atheist ), but maybe the mischief of my first.
 
Then again, I don't believe morality needs to be learned or that religion is necessary to implant it.
 
Edit: attempting to fix quote (failed)
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July 30, 2014 4:13:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There's plenty of scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

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July 30, 2014 4:31:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cauldyth,

There's plenty of scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

 

Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing a show that attributes empathy as an innate trait that separates us from the apes etc. I guess I can't feel too bad about using anecdotes after all.

That's also the word I should have used in my contradictory post above: empathy doesn't need to be taught etc... perhaps morality does as it is dictated by societal rules.

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July 30, 2014 4:47:41 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

 

Just to veer somewhat back 'on-topic'......

 

Makes one wonder about any real need for future 'privacy legislation' when at some point the 'drones' mentioned will be pre-programmed with default 'morals/ethics' code and with the ability to learn (build on that) will be able to make 'judgment calls' regarding privacy etc. on a case-by-case basis without human operator interference?

Or maybe I just wandered into the sci-fi realm of the internet and got lost, hard to tell sometimes.....

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July 30, 2014 4:51:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting the_Monk,

 

Just to veer somewhat back 'on-topic'......

 

Makes one wonder about any real need for future 'privacy legislation' when at some point the 'drones' mentioned will be pre-programmed with default 'morals/ethics' code and with the ability to learn (build on that) will be able to make 'judgment calls' regarding privacy etc. on a case-by-case basis without human operator interference?

Or maybe I just wandered into the sci-fi realm of the internet and got lost.....

 

As much as I enjoy Mr Wardell's AI programming, I hope he's not in charge of that 'morals/ethics' code.

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July 30, 2014 4:54:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I guess it depends a lot on one's definition of morality, which is where these discussions often derail.  But as an example, monkeys will show empathy and compassion to each other, even if they weren't raised in part of the "monkey community" (couldn't resist using that phrase).  They're just naturally inclined that way, as are we.  They're also naturally inclined to band together and then beat the **** out of their monkey neighbours on occasion, as are we.

But again, if there's one thing we humans are excellent at, it's overcoming our natural inclinations and reprogramming ourselves on-the-fly.  It's what's made us so successful and adaptable as a species.

 

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July 30, 2014 5:04:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cauldyth,

I guess it depends a lot on one's definition of morality, which is where these discussions often derail.  But as an example, monkeys will show empathy and compassion to each other, even if they weren't raised in part of the "monkey community" (couldn't resist using that phrase).  They're just naturally inclined that way, as are we.  They're also naturally inclined to band together and then beat the **** out of their monkey neighbours on occasion, as are we.

But again, if there's one thing we humans are excellent at, it's overcoming our natural inclinations and reprogramming ourselves on-the-fly.  It's what's made us so successful and adaptable as a species.

 

 

Hmm yeah I could be remembering it wrong. I think that empathy is more of an inherent trait though, while morality is an evolving set of rules (ie treatment of Muslims, views on same sex marriage, etc).

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July 30, 2014 5:09:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You weren't 'born with it'.  The only thing you're born with is 'animal instinct'.

 

Empathy is the foundation of morality.  Unless you're born a sociopath, empathy is one of those animal instincts you're born with.  It takes years of neglect to create a sociopath from a normal baby.  There is more than enough empirical data to throw out the blank slate nonsense idiots came up with.

 

Studies with as young as three month olds have shown a clear systematic knowledge of right and wrong, including retaliation for bad behavior, and rewards for good behavior.  Aside from shitting all over the place, they're quite idealistic.

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July 30, 2014 5:53:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Perhaps they're just not judgmental about feces. 

 Edit: Neither are monkeys!  The circle is complete...

 

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July 30, 2014 7:38:32 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Cauldyth,

Empathy is the foundation of morality.

That was stated as an absolute. That is simply not the case, and there are various thoughts on the origins of morality - religion, social theory, etc. None is really proven and they are the subject of debate. There's also nothing "wrong" about believing one or another.

Quoting screamingpalm,

empathy as an innate trait that separates us from the apes etc.

I wouldn't be so quick to rely on that as 'fact'. Elephants stay around sick/wounded elephants to protect them. So do dogs. Elephants even stop an appear to change behaviors when they arrive at a site where that elephant was located in the past.

When communication between species is mainly based on guess work, one can't really know if that is correct or not. What might appear to be 'empathetic' behavior might just be 'reflex' behavior in that species and not a result of cognitive thought/values as we know it. While it might be true, it might not as well.

I don't espouse any particular view but, I think it's rather difficult to prove this one way or another.

 

 

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July 30, 2014 8:00:17 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Miles away from the OP, aren't we?...

Reminds me of that old saying.....if I walk a mile in your shoes....I'm a mile away from you...and I've got your shoes...

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