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Not acceptable and not much you can do about it.

By on July 27, 2014 5:06:54 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002
+2259

 

 

The FBI has been using drones for some time probably about 9 years). Years, in fact. When Sen. Paul (R-KY) started asking questions about that, the FBI decided to comply with the law and did the requisite “Privacy Impact Analysis”…which is on one hand pretty funny and on the other hand pretty serious. Since the FBI started the drone business in 2005, and deployed them in 2006, there had to be a PIA (which I’m sure the FBI and any other Agency receiving one considers them) and records show that at least one was completed. It should be available by FOIA – at least on line, by default.

Therefore, Muckrock filed a series of FOIA’s because, well, that’s what Muckrock does to obtain those PIA/PIAs. It even fought a tough lawsuit for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW).

So? They got the PIA, right? Nope.

All those PIA documents have been redacted in full. Even the cover page. Turns out there’s a Catch-22 or Rule-22, if you will which isn’t totally outrageous. Some things have to remain secret, although you have to really wonder just who gets to decide that.

“Justice Department guidelines allow agencies to withhold PIAs if publication would “reveal classified, sensitive, or otherwise protected information (e.g., potentially damaging to a national interest, law enforcement effort, or competitive business interest).” Department guidelines require separate justification for keeping PIA findings from the public, but the FBI did not release any such justification documents, either.” – Muckrock

So they refiled because the FBI didn’t even bother to justify the non production of documents. Just what that will accomplish is unclear.

So what’s funny about the whole thing?

When asked to clarify the wholesale redaction of the privacy impact assessment, the FBI cited its litigation with CREW as a block on responding. "Unfortunately this matter is pending litigation," wrote Christopher Allen of the FBI Office of Public Affairs, "so I will not be able to comment."- Muckrock

In other words, “Do drones invade your privacy? Sorry, that’s private”.

So much for the promised transparency.

Btw, by writing about privacy, I’ve probably triggered NSA interest: Check this Make Use Of article out. Not that they need an excuse…they can always lose the HDD.

 

Sources:

http://www.neowin.net/news/fbi-redacts-entire-drone-privacy-assessment

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2014/jul/24/fbi-refuses-release-drone-privacy-assessment/

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/interest-privacy-will-ensure-youre-targeted-nsa/

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July 28, 2014 2:53:24 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I have to disagree, Seth.  Legislators thought civil forfeiture without due process was a good idea, too.

I consider those legislators and their legislation wrong.  "...or other improper classification"? WTH does that mean?  'Hate', or race/ethnicity/gender/etc-based motive can be an element of malice in adjudicating a crime, but we don't need laws criminalizing any speech based on offense perceived by the subject of said speech.  It's all or nothing here.  Canada was smart enough to repeal their hate speech laws a couple of years ago after they were simply used as a weapon to silence speech certain groups/individuals didn't like.  And Canada has no equivalent to 1st Amendment protections.

Crimes are crimes.  Inciting to or committing violence, whatever the motive, is a crime.  Speech is not a crime.

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July 28, 2014 3:03:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'd be less worried about destructive speech, and how batshit insane the population of the planet is regarding PC bullshit.

 

I advocate the wholesale slaughter of radical islamists, and I'm berated for singling them out and calling them towel heads.  The unhealthy fixation on being politically correct little drones in the fascist collective apparently outweighs commentary over whether genocide or cavity searches at the airport is the proper solution to a problem.

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July 28, 2014 3:13:16 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting psychoak,

I'd be less worried about destructive speech, and how batshit insane the population of the planet is regarding PC bullshit.

 

You'll note in the quote of my previous post below there is nothing in support of 'PC bullshit' as you call it...

Quoting the_Monk,
 
For me the whole issue surrounding 'speech' and the freedom (or not) thereof is much simpler.  I see speech as either having constructive or destructive properties.  I believe one can completely and even vehemently disagree with someone else and yet ensure their speech doesn't devolve into destructive vitriol.  It is my view that 'hate speech laws' and others like it amount to not much more than a Band-Aid to the continual attempts in society to see just how destructive one can allow their speech / interaction with others to get before someone puts the brakes on.


Now going waaaay off topic........I see the real issues there being the loss of shame for one's own behavior (when inappropriate) that society has become all too familiar with, the ease with which we (all) seem to resort to destructive speech / behavior towards others and how accepting we are of the resulting enjoyment (schadenfreude) society seems to take from 'dismantling' each other (in terms of viewpoint or position).

 

....in fact I suggested 'hate speech legislation' is akin to a Band-Aid 'solution' and reading between the lines the implication was there that I feel it doesn't achieve much other than maybe making society 'more PC'.  After all being 'PC' as you put it, is just finding a way to be 'destructive' in speech and / or behavior but doing so in such a manner as to not 'offend' the legalistic sensibilities of society at large.  Would it not be preferable to refrain from destructive speech/actions as much as possible from a 'humanitarian' perspective anyway?  That way you don't have to feel you're doing it to be 'PC'.

I mean isn't it destructive speech and actions in the first place that serve to 'radicalize' any/all individuals of any/all persuasion(s)?  Focusing on reducing the amount of destructive speech/action by anyone can only be seen as a positive.

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July 28, 2014 3:20:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I didn't say you were, just a suggestion that your priorities may be off.

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July 28, 2014 3:31:44 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

I advocate the wholesale slaughter of radical islamists, and I'm berated for singling them out and calling them towel heads.  The unhealthy fixation on being politically correct little drones in the fascist collective apparently outweighs commentary over whether genocide or cavity searches at the airport is the proper solution to a problem.

Actually it's the one who presents derogatory comments (out of the blue) and hatred toward the groups previously delineated who is displaying 'fascistic' or better defined, intolerant or hateful conduct.

I could have edited your comments but chose not to do so. That shouldn't be misconstrued as agreement. They are in fact, repulsive. 

That has nothing to do with PC. That has everything to do with the selective invective which was exercised with discrimination towards a specific group of people because of their belief and dress. It should be specifically eschewed.

@Daiwa:

Quoting Daiwa,

"...or other improper classification"? WTH does that mean?

That means any other criteria devised to disenfranchise or set that group apart for hatred and encourage violence towards them...such as 'poor people', blondes, redheads, people with green eyes, people from Italy or wherever...I think that's the obvious meaning.

Quoting Daiwa,

we don't need laws criminalizing any speech based on offense perceived by the subject of said speech

We don't because they are in place. HEY! We don't need anyone criminalizing yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, either, right?

The ability and intent to do harm is the criterion and it's a good one. The Constitution was NEVER meant to be a suicide or murder pact...

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July 28, 2014 6:29:15 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

False analogy with the "Fire!" defense.  Apples/oranges.

Quoting DrJBHL,

That means any other criteria devised to disenfranchise or set that group apart for hatred and encourage violence towards them...such as 'poor people', blondes, redheads, people with green eyes, people from Italy or wherever...I think that's the obvious meaning.

Who decides what's 'proper'?  If the meaning is whatever multiply parsed segment of people some DA can identify or invent, it means nothing.  No one should encourage violence towards anyone, no matter their 'distinguishable characteristics', but that's a matter of morality and decorum, not a legal concept.  Actual perps are the responsible parties, not the dudes out in the street screaming 'Death to the Jews' because it's parade time.

The rub with 'hate speech' laws is the inherent subjectivity in determining what is 'encouragement' and who deserves 'special protection'.  The list of those with 'distinguishing characteristics' who demand insulation from being offended (which translates to the right to legally harm or stifle people they find offensive) will grow long.  Having such mechanisms which feed our inflated sense of separateness and entitlement only serves to divide us, pitting artificial group against artificial group.  We should truly all be equal before the law.

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July 28, 2014 8:06:27 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

The ability and intent to do harm is the criterion and it's a good one. The Constitution was NEVER meant to be a suicide or murder pact...

Doing criminal harm to others is already illegal. True threats are already illegal. Speech with the intent and expectation of inducing others to immediate criminal activity is at best unprotected by the First (details of legality vary by state).

We do not need statutes whose sole purpose is to make things which are already illegal "more" illegal, particularly when they are so subjective as hate crime laws. For example, the existing distinctions among first and second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are more than sufficient. Hatred is rather implied in the mere fact that someone commits murder, and the fact of their actions alone is more than enough to merit the harshest punishment without the need for "thought crimes".

Criminal law should be based upon objective fact. Morality and civility are matters for religion and society, not the courts.

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July 29, 2014 4:26:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting kryo,

Doing criminal harm to others is already illegal. True threats are already illegal. Speech with the intent and expectation of inducing others to immediate criminal activity is at best unprotected by the First (details of legality vary by state).

We do not need statutes whose sole purpose is to make things which are already illegal "more" illegal, particularly when they are so subjective as hate crime laws. For example, the existing distinctions among first and second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are more than sufficient. Hatred is rather implied in the mere fact that someone commits murder, and the fact of their actions alone is more than enough to merit the harshest punishment without the need for "thought crimes".

Criminal law should be based upon objective fact. Morality and civility are matters for religion and society, not the courts.

He shoots, HE SCORES! 

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July 29, 2014 5:26:44 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting myfist0,

Criminal law should be based upon objective fact. Morality and civility are matters for religion and society, not the courts.

In fact, laws are designed for multiple purposes: Among them the prevention of crime. Since it's hard to repair the results of violence, it's better to prevent it.

Quoting Daiwa,

The list of those with 'distinguishing characteristics' who demand insulation from being offended (which translates to the right to legally harm or stifle people they find offensive) will grow long.  Having such mechanisms which feed our inflated sense of separateness and entitlement only serves to divide us, pitting artificial group against artificial group.  We should truly all be equal before the law.

That is in fact the assurance they will...by discouraging the opposite. Nothing here inflates any sense of separateness. It assures groups experiencing discrimination and hate that they will be treated as all other 'groups'. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The analogy is not a false one. It serves to show that there are boundaries...and that one crosses those boundaries at one's peril.

Also, there are rules of conduct in the Forums (just to bring us back to reality), and those original remarks went well past them.

Quoting kryo,

We do not need statutes whose sole purpose is to make things which are already illegal "more" illegal, particularly when they are so subjective as hate crime laws. For example, the existing distinctions among first and second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are more than sufficient.

Can't agree because once again, we're dealing with motivation and intent. Murder, etc. are generally caused by the 3 traditional motives. Also, the division of the crimes reflect that. There is an additional dimension to any crime: The degree of heinousness. Murdering a person you don't know and have had no interaction with in the past solely because of skin color, mode of dress or religion are deemed to have their own heinousness probably because this society is built up of many different such groups...and its success is based on how well they work together.

Therefore, in fact such laws are imperative to accentuate the values we have as a society.

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July 29, 2014 7:49:27 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Murdering a person you don't know and have had no interaction with in the past solely because of skin color

It is not the law's duty to determine the value of a victim and mete out punishment unequally. Hate crime laws could be considered a technical violation of the Fourteenth as they vary punishments (and thus protection) based upon the classes the victim and perpetrator belong to. And by placing higher value upon certain classes of victims, they implicitly devalue victims of crimes by perpetrators of the same race.

Equivocating hate crimes with existing criminal criteria is not valid. 'Did the perpetrator plan the crime in advance' is a criteria that applies to everyone; 'is the victim a member of class X' does not.

Unequal application of justice based upon race, class, etc. is not a new thing. We've just revived it from olden times and flipped the classes around. Such things have no place in a truly equal society.

Some guys once said that all are created equal, with the same rights and the same freedoms. Murder is murder; it is wholly unacceptable and worthy of the harshest punishment regardless of the involved parties' skin color. Rather than seeking to stiffen penalties on such a basis, one should seek to stiffen penalties for ALL murders, etc.

Hatred itself is a matter for society, culture, and upbringing to remedy. The law can't even deter the (most, by far) crimes that occur today between people of the same race or class; it is neither suitable nor appropriate for affecting change in thoughts and opinions on deeply held beliefs (no matter how wrong they may be).

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July 29, 2014 8:21:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kryo,

Unequal application of justice based upon race, class, etc. is not a new thing.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of US hate crime laws, but it's my understanding that they don't only apply only to specific groups.  Killing a white person because they're white, a man because he's a man, a heterosexual person because they're heterosexual, all also constitute hate crimes, I believe.  There is no inequality inherent in what the laws say (there may be inequality in their application, of course).

At least that's my naive understanding of how they're written.

 

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July 29, 2014 8:30:33 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting kryo,

It is not the law's duty to determine the value of a victim and mete out punishment unequally.

Interesting assertion, but not all crimes are created equal.

There are different punishments for different crimes even if in the end they involve say, taking a life. There are clear reasons for that.

Quoting kryo,

'Did the perpetrator plan the crime in advance' is a criteria that applies to everyone; 'is the victim a member of class X' does not.

Then, by that reasoning the crime of genocide doesn't exist. Not acceptable, and clearly flies in the face of reality. That is a hate motivated crime and even has its own sections in the Geneva Conventions. Not to forget, that started as hate speech as well and progressed from there.

Quoting kryo,

Hatred itself is a matter for society, culture, and upbringing to remedy. The law can't even deter the (most, by far) crimes that occur today between people of the same race or class; it is neither suitable nor appropriate for affecting change in thoughts and opinions on deeply held beliefs (no matter how wrong they may be).

The law is in fact a function of and an expression of society's norms. 

It can prevent unwanted and violent conduct (unfortunately not always), and although it would be better that such education occur in the home that is no guarantee of punishment should those norms be violated and members of society harmed as a result or their harm be advocated by such actions. Again, the difference in the laws reflect the nature of intent.

Quoting kryo,

Hate crime laws could be considered a technical violation of the Fourteenth as they vary punishments (and thus protection) based upon the classes the victim and perpetrator belong to. And by placing higher value upon certain classes of victims, they implicitly devalue victims of crimes by perpetrators of the same race.

Not really because if x and y are found guilty under those categories without individual extenuating circumstances then x and y receive the same punishment. Again, not all crimes are equal. Motivation is certainly a factor in differentiating between types of homicide (manslaughter, Murder I and II, Felony Murder, etc.), so why not hate crime associated murder? It doesn't involve equal protection since certain groups were deemed needy of certain protections by legally elected and constituted lawmakers for good reason.

 

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July 29, 2014 9:16:39 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Then, by that reasoning the crime of genocide doesn't exist.

Mass murder is a heinous crime regardless of the reason; it is not somehow less bad to mass murder for reasons other than race or class. Murder is unacceptable, period. And I'll thank you to not make such ungrounded misrepresentations again.

 

It doesn't involve equal protection since certain groups were deemed needy of certain protections by legally elected and constituted lawmakers

It doesn't involve equal protection because someone decided unequal protection was needed?

Sorry, but just passing a law doesn't make something constitutional, nor does it make it just. I have a hard time understanding how you apparently feel it should given your opinions on other topics of government behavior.

 

I would think equality under the law is a fairly strightforward and logical point, but ultimately, it seems we're not going to agree on this. So you can have your thread back.

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July 29, 2014 9:57:23 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

just recently we had some rallies here in Germany where people were shouting "gas the Jews" and "Jews, cowardly pigs". nobody was arrested, nobody will face consequences.

but if you point out that there was hardly any ethnic German among those people, you will be labeled a racist and islamophobe.

that's how this hate speech thing works here. 

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July 29, 2014 10:05:30 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

If you didn't mean it that way, then fine. I do and still maintain that the extension of individual hate speech and hate crimes is to apply them in the plural. Not always, but again, that depends on intent or mens rea.

Quoting kryo,

Sorry, but just passing a law doesn't make something constitutional, nor does it make it just. I have a hard time understanding how you apparently feel it should given your opinions on other topics of government behavior.

In the general, no it certainly doesn't. In this specific, I believe there's nothing unconstitutional nor unjust. If it isn't, then SCOTUS will strike it down. So far, it hasn't, and SCOTUS shows no signs of doing so in the near future no cases involving that to the best of my knowledge).

One topic has nothing to do with another...I relate to different topics differently. I don't understand what objecting to privacy invasion (the OT) or other topics has to do with protecting especially vulnerable groups or violations of the TOS...

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July 29, 2014 10:24:03 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

One topic has nothing to do with another...I relate to different topics differently. I don't understand what objecting to privacy invasion (the OT) or other topics has to do with protecting especially vulnerable groups or violations of the TOS...

It's quasi-political in topicality...so sooner or later Obama will be blamed and a picture of Hitler will be posted.

 

The unfortunate situation is it is sometimes difficult to foretell exactly which thread OP will segue into politicality [new word]...

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July 29, 2014 10:30:19 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

sooner or later Obama will be blamed

You had to open that can of worms, didn't you?

Actually, "I blame Skinhit!" and to paraphrase Po': Go ahead. Do it! Blame him! You'll feel better! 

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July 29, 2014 10:50:03 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

No Jafo, the blame will go to Bush as it always does.

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July 29, 2014 11:18:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Jafo,

so sooner or later Obama will be blamed and a picture of Hitler will be posted.

 How could you not see that coming ...

 

Mass U.S. Surveillance Targeting Journalists and Lawyers Seen As Threat to American Democracy

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July 29, 2014 12:51:52 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

The hate crime discussion is distinct from the hate speech discussion, until offensive or 'disparaging' speech becomes a hate crime.

Here's where things go (and have been) down that road.

 

Now, what were we talking about?  Privacy?  Yeah, that's it.

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July 29, 2014 12:53:32 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting kryo,

Criminal law should be based upon objective fact. Morality and civility are matters for religion and society, not the courts.

Sadly, without morality there is no law unless it is economic law.

Moreover, without morality, civilisation ceases to exist.

And without morality, humankind becomes just another beast.

So to exclude morality from the courts we revert back to a system of injustice.

In other words, mob rule... and a government prepared to engage in wholesale executions to maintain power and its position at the pinnacle of the food chain.

While many equate morality to religion, and yes, they can go hand in hand as religion attempts to create order within, religion and morality are not mutually exclusive.

Religion would struggle to exist in the absence of mrality, but that is not so in reverse.

Morality can and does exist in the absence of religion.

HUman decency is the prime core of morality, and without it criminal law becomes a farcical misnomer where the eveil and morally bankrupt pay for their innocence and continue to spread corruption like it were butter.

Unfortunately, that still happens in an imperfect world where many bandy the word morality as being a lifestyle yet fail to live it it any respect.

It is therefore a fool's folly to suggest that morality be banished to religion and allow the worst of human dregs to rise to the top and run society in a manner that is devoid of that which separates us from the savages who ruled through abject cruelty and having the biggest club.

Morality is the fabric of society and what holds us together.  Without it we may as well return to the caves and drag our women around by their hair.

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July 29, 2014 1:06:16 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

It's all well and good for morality to be the fabric of society.  Until one group's morality is in fundamental conflict with another's.  Borders, language and culture matter.  The fabric of a society shreds when it's a free-for-all.

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July 29, 2014 1:52:57 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting starkers,

Morality is the fabric of society and what holds us together. Without it we may as well return to the caves and drag our women around by their hair.

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly.  Sure 'morality' maybe should be "the fabric of society and what holds us together.." (if each 'society' lived in a vacuum) but I would argue that that is most certainly not the case in the world we live in.  Morality may (and likely does as it is evident) come into play on an individual case-by-case basis in the lives of many, but I would be surprised at any real evidence of it's existence as "the fabric of society" in today's global world.

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July 29, 2014 1:58:17 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I say scrap morality and focus on ethics.

Morality has too close an association with religion.

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July 29, 2014 2:22:58 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Borg999,

I say scrap morality and focus on ethics.

Morality has too close an association with religion.

 

Since 'ethics' finds its root in the Greek word 'ethos' (moral character, habit, nature, custom) is there really a need to differentiate?  Besides it's not like religion owns morality.  Hell if that were the case the world truly would be in a sad, sad much worse state.......hehe    

 

 

 

EDIT:

Edited for Daiwa! 

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