Stardock

Buffing The Advent Loyals

By on August 9, 2012 8:20:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

bilun

Join Date 02/2012
+36

Introduction:

   As most know the Advent Loyals are currently one of the game's weakest factions all considered.   I've spent the better part oft he last week mulling over their problems and what is causing the faction as a whole to be rather lackluster.  Until recently I often put a lot of blame on the coronata, but in all honesty with recent buffs to the coronata and the nerfs to snipe(which used to vastly overshadow Unity Mass), recently I've had a change of heart and have come to believe att his point the Advent Loyal's issues have much more to do with their techs then their titan.

Honestly their basic model isn't flawed, but many of their techs were just poorly implemented and as a result don't really fufill their roles.  In some cases synergies that should by all rights exist don't, which is a major problem in that synergy is the bread and butter of any advent faction.  I will proceed with going over each of their techs individually, discussing the problems that they have(if any).  

A brief definition on tiers:  I've noticed there is often a bit of discrepency on tech tiers.  Many players discuss tech tiers from T1-T8, others from T0-T7(the way the entity files refer to techs).  For this post I will be using the former- when I say "T4" I mean 4 labs required, not 5.  Seemed I should define this formally at the start of my post to avoid confusion.


 

Problems:

While most of this section will be devoted to discussing specific problems with techs, there are a few overarching issues I'd like to discuss:

Culture:

Culture is even more a part of the advent loyal's toolkit then their rebel brethren, but the age old problem persists: Culture, even with the advent loyal's perks, isn't very useful for much beyond the easily obtained economic benefits of filling your territory with your own culture.  Offensive culture is prohibitively expensive and easily countered.

 As a result rather then fight an uphill battle of trying to make culture into something it's not(a major reliable offensive force), my discussions and proposed changes to culture will be focus more on the economic aspects of culture- allowing the advent loyals to pump out and utilize home ground culture cheaper and more easily then other factions.

 Even areas that necessarily touch on offensive culture such as Actualization of Wills will be focused more towards making culture pushes more cost effective rather then unstoppable- hopefully resulting in enemies late game being able to stop advent loyal culture- but having it cost the advent loyal's enemies as much or more to stop the culture then the advent loyals spent starting the push- resulting in a net economic advantage for the Advent Loyals.

The point is simple- I suspect much of the reason culture techs aren't hugely useful is because they try to force culture to be useful at something it's intrinsically not efficient at doing.  Focusing culture techs on a more economical mindset would in my opinion produce better results.

 

Heavy Split between Research trees:

Most of the Advent Loyal techs are in the Harmony tree, but by far their highest impact tech, Ancient retribution is deep in Hostility.  No other faction really has this problem this badly- Almost every other faction has all of their main goodies focused in a single tree.  The only other real exception is the Vasari Loyalists, who get a tech that gives them a bunch of free labs.

 

Niche Techs:

A great many techs the Advent Loyals have have multiple conditions(some official, others unofficial) which result in thier effects being far too niche.  A perfect example is Planet-for-a-Planet  Which augments your fleet, potentially allowing you to win a major battle or take an enemy planet WHEN you lose a planet IF you had a fleet intact when the planet fell(buff is not applied to newly constructed ships) IF you can rally your forces and force & complete a battle inside the 10 minute window of the buff.  That's one official condition and 2 unofficial ones.  Having 2-3 conditions to really reap the benefits is surprisingly common among Advent loyal techs, resulting in many being just a bit too situational.

 

 

 

Discussions on Specific Techs:

 

Confluence of the Unity:

This tech suffers from 2 problems:

First it has a ton of prerequisites.  Researching it's prerequisites and the etch it's self costs 3200 credits.  Add in the cost of a first temple of communion and we're in the neighborhood of 4000 credits.  Spend that much on culture early game and you are going to get crushed by the enemy who spent that much on improving their economy or building a fleet.

Second it's a culture tech that ONLY gives culture spread rate.  Due to how weak culture is, there's a reason that players only even consider buying culture techs for their secondary benefits.  Even with 5x the spreadrate bonus, without some more tangible benefit, this tech's usefulness is IMO rather suspect.

 

Acclimatization of Wills:

This tech's problem is simple: it requires you to start causing allegiance loss to do anything(a difficult proposition at the best of times with how easily culture is countered).  Otherwise it's a wasted 1700 credits.  Not to mention T3 is an odd place for this tech.  Honestly the easiest 2 times to cause allegiance loss(and even then it's not very effective) are T2(when non-advent don't have culture buildings yet) and super late game in a game that has dragged on too long when culture bombing becomes possible against a heavily entrenched opponent.  Honestly The way I see it, this tech would have been better placed in a later tier with a more potent effect.

 

Assimilated Populace:

This tech sounds really cool, but it's effects are disappointing.  The "faster population gain rate" Actually just means the planet starts population capped when colonized-which generally means 10 extra population.  In the time it takes to research the first population upgrade 4-5 or so of that could be generated normally- which means this grants about a grand total of 40-48 seconds worth of population growth.

The Damage boost suffers from being too circumstantial- It is gained on colonization, lost as soon as ships leave the gravity well, and most disappointing of all Repossession- What many ahd assumed was a reliable way to apply the damage boost does not activate Assimilated Populace.  Only normal colonization grants the benefits of assimilated populace.

 

Planet-for-a-Planet:

This has always been a very controversial tech.  Honestly I'm of the opinion that the concept isn't flaw- the implementation is just too restricted and consequently the etch is too situational.  Mostly 10 minutes isn't quite enough to RELIABLY marshal one's forces and mount a counteroffensive.  After forces are marshalled and the transit time to whatever from the advent loyals want to attack, often a scant few minute remain to fight a battle and bombard a planet.  Which means this buff is very subject to beign circumvented by enemies retreating and then returning once the buff is gone.

 

Global Unity:

Another controversial tech here- the effect when first revealed sounded so amazing- people assumed that it was going to be the signature etch of the advent loyals.  But the reality of the matter is that it comes out far too late to really be useful.  10 culture rate per planet isn't nearly enough to mount an effective culture offense and by the stage of the game this tech comes out, the advent Loyals have long since already built a few temples of communion to spread home ground culture.  It has some usefulness repelling culture from newly conquered planets, but that alone isn't worth nearly enough for a T5 faction specific tech.

 

Fury of the Unity:

Many players are particularly put off by this tech- it's T8 and yet it's effect is rather meager.  5% extra damage is certainly significant, but it seems like a slap in the face after seeing techs like SttC & Starbase Mobilization.   Honestly though I think this is one of the less important techs to tweak.  Due to Ancient Retribution's place in the Hostility Tree, reaching T8 harmony is no easy task- practically speaking buffing the earlier tier harmony techs would have a much larger impact on Advent Loyal performance.

 

Mine Control:

It's usefulness is very niche, but it does what it's supposed to.  Honestly while not super strong due to the weakness of mine, I think this tech is just fine as is...it was well implemented and performs the role it was designed to well enough.

 

Cowards Submission:

This is one of the thematically coolest techs the Advent Loyals have.  It also suffered a very poor implementation- The fact that ships are stolen after entering phase space means your newly recruited 5% immediately gets slaughered by the loyal 95% on the other side of the jump.  

 

Ancient Retribution:

This tech is amazing, absolutely no changes necessary.

 

 

Proposed Changes:

In general my changes have 3 goals with my changes:

1).  Make some of the Advent Loyal's culture techs a bit less situational

2).  Shift the early game focus of culture techs towards economy related applications of culture

3).  Shift the late game focus of culture for the Advent Loyals towards a an economical pseudo-offense that merely causes some economic damage by forcing the opponent to spend a bit more on culture buildings to defend against culture then the advent loyals spends. 

 

Before I get into specific changes, I'd like to put down my standard disclaimer: numbers may not be perfect, but consider these ideas more then anything else as proof of concept rather then finalized numbers. 

Specific Changes:

Confluence of the Unity:  Remove prerequisites, in addition to current effects increases the maximum allegiance of your planets by 2/5%. Move up to T3 from current T2.

[comments:  Allegiance is the aspect of economy most heavily tied to culture and thus an obvious choice for making early culture have a greater focus on personal economic benefits.  This tech would probably pay for it's self in roughly 25-30 minutes, so it wouldn't always be a no-brainer when in starting positions that result in early conflict.]

 

Global Unity: move down to T2(so same tier as temple of communion is available) from current T5.  Grants it's benefits over 3 ranks instead of 2(3.3/6.6/10.0 culture rate per planet instead of 5.0/10.0)

[comments:  Global Unity never belonged as a high tier tech.  The place it would be mostly useful is in serving as an alternative to temples for providing local defensive culture.  If it comes out late game it's not needed as such an alternative as you have long since already built culture buildings.

That said, I felt it was necessary to stagger it's benefits to 3 ranks instead of 2 to keep learning the full technology expensive.  My thoughts are early game players may just grab the first rank, allowing to get that +10% allegiance at each of their planets cheaper and easier then any other faction, and then grab the second 2 ranks much later in the game when they need the full effect of global unity to defend against enemy culture.]


Acclimatization of Wills:  Move up to T5 from current T3 position.  In addition to current effects reduces culture decay from moving through gravity wells by 50/100% (which is to say reduces culture decay to (two thirds)/(one half) of it's normal effect with the way sins calculates reduction)

[comments:  This is the change that took the most thought.  I know it seems strange at a glance, but think about it: With Global Unity the Advent Loyals are pumping out a small amount of culture at every planet.  Reduce the culture loss from moving through gravity wells and they will be pushing on their cultural borders with a large portion of the combined force of that 10 culture rate from each planet.

It wouldn't be enough to overpower enemy's culture entirely, but a 7-10 planet empire might be pushing on it's borders with the strength of 2-3 temples without building a single temple.  The result is that the opponent will have to build a temple or two just to defend against the advent loyal's passive culture generation once they reach T5 and get this tech, which results in hurting the enemy economy without really hurting the advent loyal's own economy- a net economic gain from culture.

Not to mention something feels very thematically appropriate about late game Advent Loyals having a significant culture push that originates from no single point but is instead the combined push of each of their worlds.]

 

Assimilated Populace:  Activates upon use of Repossession in addition to during normal planet colonization.  Replace current instant "+5000 population" effect with 10 minutes of +50% population generation rate at the colonized planet. Drop down to T3(3 temples requried) from T4

[comments:  I know this sounds very strong, but think of it this way:  The vasari have a 2-point passive T2 tech that grants +50% population generation.  Assimilated populace is 1 tier higher, but only a single rank.  It's main advantage is it also gives a situational damage buff, but in return the Vasari tech pulls ahead in population generation after the first 10 minutes.  This sounds as roughly a fair trade off.

The drop from T4 to T3 was mainly added because T4 is a bit late for a tech who's economical aspect only really improves colonization.]


Planet-for-a-Planet: increase duration from 600 to 750.  Replace current "+10% firing range" effect with "+30% planetary bombing speed".

[comments:  Pretty straightforward- a 25% increase in duration, combined with a bonus to bombing speed means you can more reliably get something done during the buff duration.  The buff will last long enough that just "ignoring the pissed off advent until their buff goes away" isn't really an option.  No to mention given the name and intended purpose to make planet trades a bombing bonus makes a whole lot more sense then the current weapons range boost.]


Coward's Submission:  Either apply the conversion before the ship enters phase space and immediately cancel it's jump order or alternatively have converted ships teleported back to the planet they had just left when converted.

[comments:  This is more a fix then anything else- rather hard to accurately measure the potency of an ability meant to steal ships if the stolen ships pretty much never really get to tell the tale.  With this change we will be in a good position to actually figure out how useful the tech actually is and balance accordingly. ]


Dicussion Topic: Fury of the Unity

One tech I've come to no definitive conclusion on is Fury of the Unity- It's disappointing, but frankly I suspect changing it is FAR less important then other techs as it's mcuh deeper int he harmony tree then the advent loyals are likely to go.  I've seen some interesting ideas around the forums such as having it improve deliverance engine, but honestly I have yet to see anything that has completely sold me on changes to this tech.  That said, any discussion on this tech is welcome

 

Putting it all together:

First off I'd like to list the net benefits of my changes:

economic bonuses:

*+5% max allegiance

*+50% population generation rate for first 10 minutes of colonization(translates to 37.5 extra population at 10 minute mark if population upgrades are always bought in a  timely manner so population never hits cap) 

Military Bonuses:

*Assimilated Populace & planet-for-a-planet both provide about the same combat benefit, but are easily to fully utilize due to modified duration & activation conditions

*Cowards submission actually allows you to reliably keep the 5% ships it steals.

Culture bonuses:

*Global Unity comes out much earlier

*culture decay reduced by 100%(cut in half)

Minor drawbacks:

*Confluence comes out 1 tier later and Acclimitization 2 tiers later then before

*Planet-for-a-Planet loses attack range buff




So in a nutshell it's chiefly a buff to the advent loyal's economy- most notably how culture relates to their economy and to the usability of their combat techs(rather then raw potency changes).


That said it all does come together in a fairly cohesive total image.


If no early pressure is applied the Advent Loyals have a decent economic lineup:

They would grab the early economic advantages of culture(the extra 10% allegiance on each world enabled by culture) cheaper and earlier then any other faction(no need to build a temple or wait for the culture to move down phase lanes.

Come T3 they have techs that encourage them to redouble their efforts at expanding(extra population generation rate from assimilated populace), as well as an increase to max allegiance that allows their planet's allegiance to continue growing.

Then at harmony T4 they hit a transition from their previously peaceful economic outlook: they can use Planet-for-a-planet to transition into a milittary counteroffensive if an enemy has been giving them trouble and taking their worlds.  Or if they haven't been under any pressure, they could continue to harmony T5 and transition ito putting a bit of culture pressure on their neighbors With Acclimatization of Wills & global unity.

Regardless of whether their transition begins with Planet-for-a-planet or weaking their neighbor's economies with Acclimatization of Wills, the next stage is probably mostly military in nature.

 

Of course that's just how their harmony tree would flow in games where they aren't subject to much early pressure.

 If fighting breaks out immediately they would more likely just utilize Global unity to get some early defensive homeground.

d culture faster and cheaper then their opponent can buy culture and begin building hostility temples to work towards their main combat tech Ancient retribution.  Additionally this under pressure route also gives access to Coward's submission which would make attacking the advent loyals a bit less of an appealing prospect for the aggressor as they risk having their ranks skimmed and added to the defenders.  

 

In addition these changes create a few synergies- which always have been the greatest tools of the Advent.  Repossession and Assimilated populace are a natural combo(one people had always assumed already worked) as are Repossession & COwards submissions.  Assimilated Populace also combos well with Planet-for-a-planet as it lessens the sting of losing a planet to activate PfaP by allowing the world to quickly recover it's population if retaken.  The max allegiance buff of Confluence would also go well with early global unity- as global unity makes increasing allegiance at even new worlds fast and easy.

Honestly All things considered with these changes Global Unity would become the Advent loyal's main game changer.

 

Conclusion:

Anyway, I realize this is quite a laundry list of changes, but I think the total effect would be the Advent Loyals being a more competitive and mechanically cohesive faction.

They would still lack the big single-tech game-changers of most factions, but I'm confident they would have their own unique and interesting playstyle built from the combined effect of a larger number of "small effect".  And while this methodology would lack the poster child of a single incredible gamechanging tech, honestly I think a unique identity built up from the synergy of a number of tools suits the Advent Loyal persona(as the "traditional advent") far more then a single individually powerful gamechanging tool anyway.

While I realize this probably isn't the best time to post this(with the next balance patch imminent)- but it's been bouncing around in my head recently and I thought it was time I wrote it all down.


Anyway, while I've though an awful lot of time agonizing on these changes, I understand some people may disagree with many of them- So by all means discuss and post you own thoughts on the problems the Advent Loyals suffer from and possible solutions.  

 

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August 9, 2012 10:22:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

First off, I'll admit I didn't read your whole post - too long. I appreciate the effort but at this point, unless we know the devs are actually interested in making changes like this, why bother? Just being realistic. Secondly, I'll say the Advent Loyalists are my favourite by design even if they are lacklustre, making me play Advent Rebels more often to stay competitive. I'm in general agreement from scanning your post that there are a higher % of useless/ill-thought out techs in the AL tree compared to the others. Imo, Ancient Retribution and Global Unity are the only ones worth their cost. They are quite good. The Coronata is also a decent Titan, just have to play it more conservatively. Many of their techs are "luxury" techs that I only ever get if I'm winning, have a large eco still, and am curious about what they might contribute. Coward's submission, even though it doesn't take effect until after the phase jump, still means the enemy has lost ships. This just isn't enough to justify spending on it though. Same for Planet for a Planet. Will the next patch contain any AL buffs/reworks...? Stay tuned, cause the devs aren't saying at this point.

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August 10, 2012 1:44:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

First off, I would like to say that I read your whole post and found some very good ideas. Great job bilun.

For some reason, I have a strange liking for the Advent Loyalists, even though I almost NEVER play Advent. Maybe I just like the underdog, because that is what the AL are at the moment.

I do have a few ideas concerning how this faction could be improved, though. I will go over them in the order that they appear in your post.

Confluence of the Unity:  Remove prerequisites, in addition to current effects increases the maximum allegiance of your planets by 2/5%. Move up to T3 from current T2.

I agree with the 5% increase in allegiance. I think that a 10% allegiance buff for Desert planets would be fitting as well, given the Advent's emphasis on Desert planets and the Advent Loyalist's theme of "sticking to regular old Advent ideals".

Global Unity: move down to T2(so same tier as temple of communion is available) from current T5.  Grants it's benefits over 3 ranks instead of 2(3.3/6.6/10.0 culture rate per planet instead of 5.0/10.0)

Again, I agree with the idea, but I think the numbers should be changed around a bit. In my opinion, 5/10/15 points of culture would be more substantial and also decrease the number of Temples of Communion needed, leaving room for more factories or trade ports for the AL.

Acclimatization of Wills:  Move up to T5 from current T3 position.  In addition to current effects reduces culture decay from moving through gravity wells by 50/100% (which is to say reduces culture decay to (two thirds)/(one half) of it's normal effect with the way sins calculates reduction)

I think that this technology needs the 100% reduction to culture decay if it is to be of any use, especially at T5. Maybe only move it up to T4 or make the reduction rate 150%. This would be a substantial boost to AL culture.

Assimilated Populace:  Activates upon use of Repossession in addition to during normal planet colonization.  Replace current instant "+5000 population" effect with 10 minutes of +50% population generation rate at the colonized planet. Drop down to T3(3 temples requried) from T4

Well, for this tech I really think that it needs a +25% damage bonus for ships in the newly colonized gravity well for 10 minutes instead of the +15% for 10 minutes that it is at right now. Otherwise, bilun, I agree with your suggestion of +50% population growth rate for 10 minutes. I also think that this tech should be dropped down to T2 instead of T3.

Planet-for-a-Planet: increase duration from 600 to 750.  Replace current "+10% firing range" effect with "+30% planetary bombing speed".

When an AL player is using Repossession on the Coronata, then this tech will be useless because they will not be bombing. For this reason, I think a 10% boost to range and 5% boost to damage would make this ability more potent and useful at the same time.

Coward's Submission:  Either apply the conversion before the ship enters phase space and immediately cancel it's jump order or alternatively have converted ships teleported back to the planet they had just left when converted.

I think that this is very necessary for the AL as right now they cannot effectively use what is one of their coolest techs. I also think that this tech should give an 8% conversion chance instead of 5%, just to make it more powerful. The AL need more power.

 

Okay, now to discuss other aspects of the AL.

First, Fury of the Unity. I think that it is really wimpy. I think it should not only give its 5% damage bonus but also give a 5% boost to fire rate, a 5% boost to ship's speed, a 5% boost to antimatter restore rates, and a 10% reduction on ability cooldowns. This would give this tech a ton of buffs to the AL and would make this tech more deserving of its tech tree placement and cost.

Second, the Coronata titan. While it has some cool abilities, it is generally regarded as the weakest titan in the game, right down there with the Ankylon, which also needs some work. This is because it is the worst titan in a 1vs 1 and also has pretty situational abilities. I think that the abilities are mostly fine, but here are the few changes I propose to them and the titan in general:

1. A +10 bump to DPS. This would put it more on par with the other titans.

2. Unity mass should have chaining damage, like Seleuceia has said. This would be AWESOME. I am not even trolling.

 

Finally, I would like to ask the devs directly if there is anything being done in patch 1.04 or a later patch to give the AL some awesomeness. Is there?

What about the TEC Loyalists? Not to go off-topic, but they are reputed to be the other weaker faction in Rebellion. Are there any major changes planned for the AL or the TL?

 

 

Just knowing that there is work being done on balancing underpowered factions (not just the overpowered ones) would be very comforting to hear from the devs. I'm underlining this not because I want to sound pushy but because this is important.

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August 10, 2012 1:49:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Short and sweet...

They need buffed.

The Titan can be buffed a bit more on it's Unity Mass.

They need a killer goto TEC which is NOT global unity.

 

You might get the first two. I honestly doubt any new design will be added to give them a comparable late game TEC to the other factions. 

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August 10, 2012 3:30:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Great post, the devs should read this.

Good info, some of these techs especially Planet for a Planet suck even harder than I thought.

Suggested changes are all good especially since they don't change the mechanics or the concept too much.

That said, Repossession makes a 30% more bombing damage buff somewhat unnecessary as mentioned earlier. If Planet for a Planet also gave a 30% damage boost against planetary structures and a 15% damage boost against enemy SBs, then this tech could be very useful.

Agreed that the AL don't really need a signature 'killer' tech to be competitive.

The Coronata is fine, imo. A little more DPS might make it better at level 1 though, which is when this Titan has the most trouble.

 

On the subject of the Advent, but not specifically the AL, the Revelation's guidance should give a 25% range buff. This wouldn't change fleet balance very much but it could make SBs more dangerous.

 

Also, the AR are left with 2 worthless techs. At least Fury of the Unity actually does something. Mass Communion costs so much to get that by the time it is available, all or most media centres have already been built anyway so 40% price reduction has no impact. This tech clashes with AL design since the AL are supposed to focus more on spreading culture. Mass Communion should instead allow all Temples of Communion to generate 2 credits/sec as taxed income.

Cleanse and Renew is also useless as a fleet doesn't need AM when it neutralizes a planet because the enemy fleet has likely already been beaten.

 

It has been suggested that Novalith Deregulation should increase the build limit of super weapons.

 

 

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August 10, 2012 4:20:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Let me ask you the following:

 

What's the fundamental difference between the advents loyalists early game start to the rebels?

 

 

 Edit:

Quoting Ibnpatuta,
Second, the Coronata titan. While it has some cool abilities, it is generally regarded as the weakest titan in the game, right down there with the Ankylon, which also needs some work. This is because it is the worst titan in a 1vs 1 and also has pretty situational abilities. I think that the abilities are mostly fine, but here are the few changes I propose to them and the titan in general:

 

Something needs to change if titans are being judged by 1v1 scenarios as if fleets are non existent in the game. If anything has been learnt in this game then  you should all know the following: The TR titan has the most aggressive defense in the hopes they survive to defeat the enemy.

The coronata has passive defenses that aren't as strong but to make up for the weakness it then steals enemy ships with subjugating assault in the event some of its original ships are destroyed. In terms of fire power the coranata draws from the presence of its fleet and newly stolen ships to fully charge its unity mass ability . In essence, when you loose ships then you also gain some.

After playing around with the coranata i have learnt the best way to play with this titan is to concentrate on subjugating assault ,suppression and also spend on unity mass when you can. This way suppression and subjugating assault are at their highest level by the time its level 6+. At this point it will steal everything from enforcers, carriers, overseers and hoshikos within the first few mins in combat.

 

 If any buff has to be made then it should be aimed at subjugating assault. Buffing unity mass turns the titan into an offensive weapon because unity mass itself can fire much faster compared to snipe and deal immense damage at full fleet strength.

 

edit

Im especially impressed with how vertigo and suppression is able to make drone hosts, crusaders, enforcers and kodiaks very hard to kill under such protection.

 

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August 10, 2012 9:44:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

these proposed changes sound good.

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August 10, 2012 10:42:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good summary of some really good ideas.  I like dropping Global unity down to level 2 a lot.  This make a lot of sense to me.

I also think these changes / fixes would allow Planet-for-a-Planet and Assimilated Populace work well with Repossession.  Attack a world.  Use Repossession to flip it and get the Assimilated Populace bonus.  If the original owner bombs it back out, then you get the Planet-for-a-Planet bonus in its place.  This would make all three of these abilities much more useful.  (I'm assuming Ibnpatuta's suggested change for Planet-for-a-Planet here.)

Given all this though, I think the AL do need one more tactical advantage (like the AR with WotS) to bring them in line.  Given that the Deliverance Engine is under powered and that AL like to steal things (Subjugating Assault, Cowards Submission, Repossession) how about a Tier 8 Tech that would give the Deliverance Engine a chance to instantly flip a planet to you empire.  It would have 2 levels, with the first giving a 5% chance to flip and the second giving a 10% chance.  This would work exactly the same way Repossession does.

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August 10, 2012 11:19:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Every faction has a goto research that can make a huge difference in the game. Global unity just doesn't do anything that a couple of culture centers don't already do.

Fury of the Unity and Ancient Retribution is a good idea, but 14 labs to get a damage bonus similar to what TL get with militia weapons with 5 labs 

 

And while Ancient Retribution is a great research you don't try to go for it. You pick it up when it's available as it's lab/cost/impact ratio isn't high enough.

Same can be said for almost all of the current AL research outside of Corvette and Titan. They all fall into nice to haves if your winning, but not worth researching otherwise.

 

So I go back to... AL needs a goto research that provides a tactical advantage in the game. 

TL - dual starbases, militia weapons armor

TR - TAR, bombing buffs, AOE titan

AR - Wail, AOE titan

VR - derp, AOE titan

VL - STTC, extreme mobility with titan

AL - Global Unity := equals no tactical advantage := AL faction is much weaker as a result

 

It's amazing how the absence of one key technology can completely gimp an entire faction.

 

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August 10, 2012 1:07:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
Something needs to change if titans are being judged by 1v1 scenarios as if fleets are non existent in the game. If anything has been learnt in this game then  you should all know the following: The TR titan has the most aggressive defense in the hopes they survive to defeat the enemy.

RiddleKing, when I was talking about the Coronata, I said "generally regarded as the weakest titan" for a reason. I don't believe that it is the weakest titan, I actually think that it is one of the coolest. I do not think that a 1 vs 1 scenario is a good way to judge a titan, and especially not an Advent titan, whose faction is all about fleet synergy and not one killer power. Still, I do believe the titan could use a small amount of buffing to make it more competent in a battle, which is where the titan's weakest point is right now.

Quoting RiddleKing,
 If any buff has to be made then it should be aimed at subjugating assault. Buffing unity mass turns the titan into an offensive weapon because unity mass itself can fire much faster compared to snipe and deal immense damage at full fleet strength.

The reason I think chaining damage would be good is not only to give it more of an edge in damage but also give the ability some differentiation from the TR's Snipe.

Quoting RiddleKing,
 If any buff has to be made then it should be aimed at subjugating assault. Buffing unity mass turns the titan into an offensive weapon because unity mass itself can fire much faster compared to snipe and deal immense damage at full fleet strength.

I do think that a small buff to Subjugating Assault should be given as well.

 

 

Quoting Bama498,
Given all this though, I think the AL do need one more tactical advantage (like the AR with WotS) to bring them in line.  Given that the Deliverance Engine is under powered and that AL like to steal things (Subjugating Assault, Cowards Submission, Repossession) how about a Tier 8 Tech that would give the Deliverance Engine a chance to instantly flip a planet to you empire.  It would have 2 levels, with the first giving a 5% chance to flip and the second giving a 10% chance.  This would work exactly the same way Repossession does.

 

 

WOW. This is a great idea, Bama498. I have never even heard of you before, but I now have a lot more respect for you. This one idea could give the AL a killer tech. I think that this effect could be thrown into Ancient Retribution to give the AL an awesome ability on their Deliverance Engine. Just starting at 10% would be fine in my opinion, since when you think about it, it is still a pretty small chance. Devs, I hope you see this. This could single handedly make the AL competitive and unique.

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August 10, 2012 1:17:57 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RiddleKing,
After playing around with the coranata i have learnt the best way to play with this titan is to concentrate on subjugating assault ,suppression and also spend on unity mass when you can. This way suppression and subjugating assault are at their highest level by the time its level 6+. At this point it will steal everything from enforcers, carriers, overseers and hoshikos within the first few mins in combat.

Coronata is awesome with a few levels on it. It's just not got the same survivability in terms of health/damage output to get those levels on it early on. The best Titans are the best because their damage output/AOE abilities allow them to level up all that more quickly. I'm usually torn on whether to use a point on health at the start with Coronata because it needs more babysitting and fleet support. But then that means it's doing less in terms of abilities to help it gain levels. I think the Coronata is actually a more ideal template for balanced Titans rather than buffing the underpowered ones up to the Ragnarov/Eradica levels of awesomeness.

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August 10, 2012 7:15:03 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Imho the temple of communion should be totally replaced with Global Unity for the Advent Loyalists.

 

It should have 3 levels too:

 

Global Unity Level 1: Same power as a single temple of communion at every planet

 

Global Unity Level 2: Same power as two temple of communion at every planet

 

Global Unity Level 3: Same power as four temple of communion at every planet.

 

Think about it, not only you do realize a good economic gain with that (no slots wasted on temples anymore) but on the last level you might actually force your opponent to build a few extra culture centers....scuttling trade ports in the process. When you kill a planet with his culture centers, he might be forced to scuttle even more tradeports...

 

Not to mention it would fit into their theme awesome.

 

All upgrades that Advent Loyalist have to culture/the temple of communion should be moved to Global Unity, too.

 


Fury of the unity is very weak.... not only because 10 % damage increase is nothing at this stage of the game but also it requires TOTAL culture dominination. On the average border world (where you need it) it is rarely more than 4 - 5 percent. Yes, even if the planet is gaining 0,07+ allegiance per second. It is that weak. 

 

 

Repossesion is somewhat poor, too. It mostly usefull against an heavy digged in TEC Loyal as it will remove the Milita buffs, but beyond that Level 6 Titan ultimate ability is just an obscene expensive  glorified version of colonize. Please consider the stage of the game where you will likely have an Level 6 Coronata. You might send it off alone to steal a few worlds from the enemy, but as you cant hold them and they in fact cost you money and probably a Titan and are easily bombed and retaken, this is not very impressive.I posted a few ideas about how to make it truely powerful, here: http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/429209

 

 

 

 

 

There is also one main disadvantage that all Advent factions share. Their inabilty to cost effective deal with a Vasari that makes heavy use of phase missiles, making it difficult for them to beat a vasari in late game. (Culture Phase block is ineffective, see here: http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/429069

 

Now, what about making one advent faction more effective against the Vasari? Seing that the rebels are currently more powerful I would go for the Advent Loyalists. I even have a Lore explanation for that.

 

"Extremely annoyed at the fact that the godless aliens interfere with their just case of revenge against the TEC, the Unity is determined to get the aliens out of the way... seing that they wont leave voluntarly.... it focuses even more of its power against the aliens most deadly weapon... phase missiles, drastically reducing the ammount of successfully shield bypasses. "

 

Ok... somebody can probably word that better... but you get the point.

 

 

 

 

 

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August 10, 2012 10:39:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Honestly I think repossession would be plenty strong if Assimilated Populace & Cowards submission  were actually strong techs and worked with it(in the case of assimilated populace).

 

 

Also I had a rather oddball idea on Fury of the Unity:

 

Fury of the Unity: move to Hostility Tree, maybe T4 or T5.  Instead of current effect grants the following: +20% damage with Autocannons, Missiles, Pulse beam, & wave weapons and 20% shield bypass chance with Phase missiles(note all of these bonuses would only really be applicable on stolen ships from different races)

 

In the past any "stolen" ships use the new controller's technology- which when stealing TEC and Vasari ships often means have no weapon tech upgrades whatsoever.  Since the Advent Loyals have more options for stealing enemy ships then any other faction this would minimize that weakness by granting an all-in-one-alien-weapon-upgrade-tech at about 2/3 of the potency that is available to the original controller.

Yes at first glance it looks stupidly efficient in terms of total effects all from a single tech- but realistically it's only buffing stolen ships, which are frankly often a smaller minority then any one weapon type in their own constructed Armada. Well if need be it could easily get broken into 2 ranks like other weapons techs.

 

it would also allow for some pretty neat gameplay where in many situations in the early & mid game stolen ships are stronger then your own ships, encouraging the Advent Loyalist to try to seek new Converts to the unity as often as possible.  Heck, while less total tech would be available then the Vasari and relevant ships couldn't really be massed, the sheer possibility of stealing phase missile units and having limited access to phase missiles alone would be something very cool and gamechanging.

One of the most notable mechanical tendencies of the Advent Loyalists is their penchant for stealing enemy ships- honestly if they could gather and wield an armada created piecemeal from tools that traditionally were unique to other factions, that could be a complete gamechanger.

 

Heck, if you really wanted to create a gamechanging tech you could keep it at T8 and also have it unlock any tech-locked abilities on stolen frigates of other races.  That may be too hard to balance though- Imagine the Advent With the Cielo's Designate Target or the Subverter's Distortion Field.

 

Well it certainly has it's flaws- greatest of which is it being somewhat circumstantial.  But I thought the Idea was neat so I thought I'd share.

 

 

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August 11, 2012 9:04:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Very intriguing idea, but it would need to be no higher than T3 since the number of ships that it would buff would be small. 

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August 12, 2012 8:12:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was actually inspired by watching Nayru play Advent Loyalists in a few games where he starts with 1 mil-2 civ temples and gets culture temples up right away. This gives him the earlier culture bonuses and (increased allegiance and shield mitigation based if I remember right for Advent) helps prevent colonization in early scrabbles with nearby enemies. He actually de-colonized an enemy planet using culture allegiance drop within 15 minutes of game start. It didn't hamper his military output at all and was combined with a rush of mass corvettes and disciples.

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August 17, 2012 9:38:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
I was actually inspired by watching Nayru play Advent Loyalists in a few games where he starts with 1 mil-2 civ temples and gets culture temples up right away. This gives him the earlier culture bonuses and (increased allegiance and shield mitigation based if I remember right for Advent) helps prevent colonization in early scrabbles with nearby enemies. He actually de-colonized an enemy planet using culture allegiance drop within 15 minutes of game start. It didn't hamper his military output at all and was combined with a rush of mass corvettes and disciples.

 

But was any of this actually due to Advent Loyal faction-specific toys?  Honestly I can't see dropping nearly 4k credits on culture early(to unlock temples, build one, buy both ranks of zealous worship, then buy both ranks of Confluence) really being viable.

And if he's not using confluence, everything you've described the Advent Rebels can do just as well(only they have a few actually useful toys that provide additional tactics).

Well, I suppose I didn't see the game so anything I say about what techs he researched is just speculation.

 

 

 

On a separate notes part of me still wishes the Advent Loyals had some sort of tech that either makes the Coronata spread culture or makes it suppress enemy culture structures in the gravity well it inhabits(or in the latter case perhaps an added effect to Suppression Aura).  Balanced right this could be a simple addition to the Advent Loyal toolkit which would allow them to easily bring culture with their main fleet provided their much sought after culture combat boosts even when on the offensive.

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August 18, 2012 12:52:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I was waiting for someone to ask that actually. And no, what I saw him doing could be done by AR just the same as well (just the 1800 odd credits for the temple research and structure). The difference is just that Advent Loyalists have a few culture specific techs to encourage going the culture route a little earlier - nothing amazing though. AR are even the ones who get cheaper temples down the tech tree. AL need to be buffed somewhere along the culture tree more - whether it's the deliverance engine or with global unity coming earlier. We'll see if it's on the devs radar soon enough with the next patch I guess.

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August 29, 2012 3:41:45 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I say give AL Deliverance Engine ability to destroy enemy culture centers on top of spreading friendly culture.

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