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Fallen Enchantress: Beta 4

By on June 29, 2012 10:46:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Derek Paxton

Join Date 03/2003
+122

Beta 4 

Beta 4 focuses on cities.  But that really means it focuses on the games pace.  Production, economy and research come from your cities.  When we change them we change the game.  First let's talk about a few of the design issues we have been wrestling with:

1.            Lack of city specialization.  Materials and Food are okay, but in general you want to build the same things in every city, or at least the player's preference outweighs the strategic benefit (so it feels like you just want to do the same thing everywhere).

2.            We need more improvements.  We want to double the amount a given city may have.  We want more choices, we want there to be a bigger difference between a city that focuses on infrastructure and one that produces troops.  I want a player focusing on infrastructure to never be able to run out of things to build.  And I want to do it without:

a.            Making improvements take forever to build.

b.            Making cities even larger than they already are (in fact I want to shrink cities).

3.            Basing the economy, research and production directly on population is painful/impossible when cities can grow from 1 from 600 population.  Whatever bonus we give for those resources on a 10 population city become 60 times as high on a 600 population city.  Lesson 1: To control game pace, control your ranges.

4.            City enchantments are a tightrope walk.  To good and you have to place them on every city, it becomes busywork.  Not good enough and you never use them.

 

I wish fixing it was a simple thing, but we needed a few pieces to make it all work.

 

Step 1: Starbases?

Outposts can be upgraded to give bonuses to anything in their Zone of Control.  They can boost allied units attack, reduce the attack of enemies, modify movement costs, scare away monsters, provide bonuses to the attached city, etc.  They are not destroyed when an enemy moves onto them, instead they are flipped to that enemies control and represent your control over the land itself (monsters still destroy outposts, I highly recommend you upgrade them with Wardens to keep the monsters at bay).

Outposts have a limited distance they can be built (or summoned) from each other, so you can't pepper the field with them.  But their ZoC's can intersect (with the right upgrades) and their bonuses are cumulative, allowing you to build strong defenses if you desire.

 

Step 2: Much like a bad Star Trek episode, it's all about the Queue

The production queue is a precious resource.  Everything in Beta4 builds faster, but there is a lot more to build.  As with Beta3 City Improvements and Units train in the queue, but Wild Improvements and Outpost upgrades go into the queue as well.  You can drag items around in your queue if you want to reorder them (and it remembers how much production you had on items you may move back in line).

The biggest change in Beta4 is that even though production is much faster, there are always things you want to build.  You can play as Pariden and drop outposts early on, but you will be making a hard choice to start claiming those resources vs making units or improvements in your cities.

Multiple cities are always good.  If you can defend them and you have the land to claim it's always a good option just because it gives you more queues.  The minimum distance between cities has been reduced in Beta4 to support more cities, closer together.

 

Step 3: Improvement Upgrades

In Beta4 improvements can upgrade.  Your Cleric upgrades to a Shrine which upgrades to a Sacrificial Altar (for Empire players).  Since the old improvement is replaced by the new one, we get a few benefits:

1.            City size stays relatively contained.  We added 40 new improvements and cities are about half the side they are in Beta 3.

2.            Cities look more advanced as they upgrade to higher tier buildings.  A cleric is a modest building, the Shrine is more pronounced, the artists can go all out on what the Sacrificial Altar looks like.  Upgraded buildings don't get lost in the jumble of the same buildings the rest of your cities have, they look more unique and specific to their purpose.

3.            You can't get to the higher tier buildings of particular types unless you have built the earlier versions.  You can't build the Treasury Vault unless you have gone through the economy boosting improvements on the way.  So you have to decide, do you want to build a Study, then School, then College and University?  If you do you won't be getting access to the best economy improvements without spending the time to go through the base one and their upgrades.  You are rewarded for specializing your cities and your cities build lists become very unique from each other.  Build lists also don’t become huge since you only see the highest tier you have access to (you only see the Pier, not the Dock and Harbor it upgrades to).

4.            Faction achievements and World Achievements are at the end of upgrade chains.  You can't build the Ironworks just because you unlocked the tech for it, and you can't build it in every city.  It will only show in a city that has specialized in what it does.

5.            Resource improvements upgrade too.  The first shard shrine only produces 1 mana per turn.  With the correct techs you can upgrade to ones that produce more mana.  The same goes for Crystal and Iron mines.  If you have enough iron mines to train your units maybe you don’t need to tech up the side of the tree to unlock these improvements.  But if you do want to have your iron come in faster, the research options are there for it.  This fixes a big issue for us by allowing us to control the pace of mana and resources as the game goes on, we can trickle it in in the beginning, then ramp it up as the player gets access to more expensive units and more costly spells.

 

Step 4: City Specialization

All cities start as villages.  When the city gets to city level 2 you pick a specialization for that city.  It can be either be a Fort, a Conclave or a Town.

 

Fort- Units trained in forts start at a level higher.  Forts are the only cities that can build walls as well as having access to improvements that improve defenders and improve trained units.

Conclave- Conclaves generate more research than other city types and have access to special magic and research improvements.  They gain additional bonuses from Essence (more about that later).

Town- Towns are the heart of your empire and are the source of your food, growth and money.  They also have a larger ZoC than other city types.  Towns have access to a series of improvements that improve the food production for all cities in your empire and they are cumulative with each other.  So Forts and Conclaves will never be able to reach the highest city levels on their own, they will need towns to support them.

 

The improvements for each city type are generally in that tech tree (Fort=Military, Town=Civilization, Conclave=Magic).  So players that are doing alot of teching in one area will find that they can get more advanced improvements for that sort of city.  If you have researched 90% of your magic tree and 0% of your Military tree you will have more high tier conclave improvements available than you have Fort improvements (in fact you will only have 1st tier Fort improvements available).

Choosing what sort of city you have opens up lots of new improvements to that city as well as determining what sorts of improvements the city can unlock at city level 3, 4 and 5.  The real magic comes in the intersection of the upgradeable improvement chains (which keep players from building everything everywhere) and the city types (which modify the effect of other improvements).  Maybe you want a food boosting town or a fort that creates super soldiers.  Or maybe you want studies in every city because you like studies (even if they are more productive in Conclave cities).

Note that studies are available everywhere.  Our point isn't to lock these city types down.  You can get research and money from non-town cities.  You can train units in Conclave cities.  The point is to open up new ways each type can specialize.

 

Step 5: The Economy

I love the idea of all the economics inputs coming from the population.  At one point I had a design where there were citizen types, unrest controlled how many were rebels, craftsmen produced special things.  It was a beautiful, intricate, stupid design.  Lesson number 2: If it's fun to design, it probably isn't fun to play.

Instead of getting money, research and production from the population, they now come from the city level.  A village (city level 1) produces 1 research a turn, a level 5 city produces 16 research per turn.  Of course these are modified by improvements, enchantments, etc.  But that is the extent of our range.

Because of that change tech costs drop to more normalized values.  A player with a large population isn't researching at 20x the rate of a player with a normal population.  He may be going twice as quickly.

Improvement costs can normalize since we know the ranges for a large production based city.  And they are close enough that they stay reasonable for a production focused city without being laughable for a moderate city.

Gold (*cough*, I mean Gildar) values were normalized since we control the ranges, meaning item costs in shops can come down.  Sell prices stay the same but now that money means more.  A gildar per turn means something to small and large empires alike because to don’t through a growth curve from starving for money to drowning in it.

 

Step 6: Essence

The final step is the addition of a new tile yield, Essence.  Essence appears much like Grain and Materials and is more prevelant around mana shards.  Only about half of the city locations have any essence nearby, and only about half of those have spots with 2 Essence.  3 Essence tiles are extremely rare.

There are chains of improvements that require essence before they become available.  The Cleric/Shrine/Sacrificial Altar chain I mentioned above is only available in cities with Essence.  Conclaves have access to Alchemy Labs and other improvements that give bonuses based on the amount of Essence in that city.  The Guardian Idol improvement requires Essence and is 1 per faction (it starts as a monument, upgraded to a Guardian Statue and then to a Guardian Idol), it is a powerful city defender that can cast any spell your sovereign can cast.

There are two improvements that can increase the amount of Essence in a city.  One is a level up option in Conclave cities.  The other is only available to Pariden.

The biggest advantage of Essence is that a cities Essence determines how many enchantments it can have.  City enchantments no longer have a maintenance cost and there are more of them and they are more powerful than before.  If you found a city on a place with essence the first thing you should do is get some enchantments on it.  Inspiration and Enchanted Hammers are good early ones that exist in Beta 3 (though in Beta4 the amount of their bonus depends on the amount of essence in the city).  Additional City Enchantments like Set in Stone (+100% production but no research), Blood Sigil (Withers all attackers, Berserks all Defenders) and Sovereign's Call (+1 Growth per Essence) allow you an additional decision on how to specialize your cities.  Trust in Glyph of Life to protect your Conclave from attackers, use Pit of Madness to speed the research in your Town.

Essence effectively becomes the most flexible tile yield, doing nothing on its own, but allowing you to reach in and play with the cities configuration.  Maybe you want it focused on gold and growth but dispel those enchantments and switch it into battle mode when enemies come near (enchantment maintenance is gone, but these spells still cost mana to cast so "respecting" your city isn't something you should do lightly).

 

Step 7: Balance

I find myself carefully considering the build options in my cities.  That doesn't mean it will be perfect.  I'm very curious to hear from all of you on what enchantments you use most and which you don't use at all.  Do you focus just on one sort of city type or play with a mix?  Do you chase down improvement chains to the end, or do you pick a variety of improvements in your cities?

In a few weeks you will have a chance to play and I'm excited to get your thoughts.  Until then we have work to do, mostly in making sure all the information is being displayed in an easy to understand way, and generally polishing the entire game to smooth the edges.

 

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June 29, 2012 11:06:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes! I was hoping for a late Friday update.

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June 29, 2012 11:16:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good I caught this before going to bed, thanks for the update! 

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June 29, 2012 11:26:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sounds exciting!  I'm intrigued by the idea of essence controlling how many city enchantments you can have as well as other magical-related things.  It sounds like a great addition.

Cheers for all of your hard work 

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June 29, 2012 11:33:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Outstanding!

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June 29, 2012 11:52:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

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June 30, 2012 12:27:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thank you Derek.

 

Thank you and the whole rest of the Stardock dev team for your hard work and your support of Stardock's gamers. This update looks fantastic.

 

I do have one question, though. Part of the issue with the bizarre balance of cities in Beta 3 and earlier came from many buildings not having any upkeep at all and money being generally sparse. This led to many city features literally being placeholders for production simply because there was no downside to building them if you weren't doing anything else with your queue for the next 15 turns.

 

Is the economy in Beta 4 going to be similar to that, or are you going to scale the gold in such a way that pretty much all buildings have some manner of upkeep (and therefore a downside to building them)?

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June 30, 2012 12:36:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Are cities still going to be limited to a small number of tiles, with districts, rather than every building taking up space?  Or is it just that more buildings will upgrade rather than there simply be multiple buildings that do the same task?

And will, say Pariden specific stuff be still given to sides with Enchanters trait, rather than being restricted to pre-built sides only?

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June 30, 2012 1:05:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow ! ... Lot of food for thought, in this Beta 4 Update Post ... 

 

Thanks for the Update; and thanks for your continuing hard work , and the continuing hard work of all your Development Team members !          

 

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June 30, 2012 1:30:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I've been out of the loop for a while, but DAMN! Those are some awesome improvements. It's going to cause me a lot of lost sleep, but I'm getting back to beta testing once this update hits.

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June 30, 2012 1:40:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

"I find myself carefully considering the build options in my cities.  That doesn't mean it will be perfect.  I'm very curious to hear from all of you on what enchantments you use most and which you don't use at all.  Do you focus just on one sort of city type or play with a mix?  Do you chase down improvement chains to the end, or do you pick a variety of improvements in your cities?"

 

I don't see myself ever having a city that is vulnerable to an opponents overland magic (I'm deathly affraid of volcanoes & such), if there's an enchant to protect them I will be using that, if not then I will be using the city improvement options everytime - I can say this with a certainty

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June 30, 2012 2:25:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They are not destroyed when an enemy moves onto them, instead they are flipped to that enemies control and represent your control over the land itself

 

Can we have a takeover phase where outposts become neutral before granting bonuses to their new owner. Maybe one turn would do it to prevent gamey tactics.

 

Awesome post and now I am looking forward to Fallen Enchantress again.

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June 30, 2012 2:44:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This update will make the game much more fun for me. So far I have settled into a strategy where I have only 1 city and I just rush all of the world wonders and keep my tax rate at none once the merchant-cross bazaar is built.

Having a reason to build multiple cities and having the cities specialize to different tasks sounds great. I hope that once you level up the cities you specialize again (i.e. mana vs research, food vs gold, etc) 

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June 30, 2012 2:57:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1) If outposts are going to flip, please give us something like militia to defend them against scouts, pioneers and those level 1 crappy demons summoned for Resoln. Otherwise it is going to be micro hell. Suitably, that militia would upgrade as you research warfare/magic tech like city militia do.

2) You want us to have multiple cities, fine. But we don't like cityspam. How are you going to keep the amount of cities "several" but not "as many as I can fit into the map"?

 

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June 30, 2012 3:21:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
2) You want us to have multiple cities, fine. But we don't like cityspam. How are you going to keep the amount of cities "several" but not "as many as I can fit into the map"?

 

Prestige.

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June 30, 2012 3:27:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Oh man this looks amazing! Good job guys you really overdid yourself this time. Excited for it to be released.

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June 30, 2012 3:32:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

On a serious note, this is exactly how I pictured the best future for FE. I see alot of good logic in this post. Superior work.

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June 30, 2012 3:38:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, excellent work, excellent thinking guys and gals!

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June 30, 2012 3:46:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
1) If outposts are going to flip, please give us something like militia to defend them against scouts, pioneers and those level 1 crappy demons summoned for Resoln. Otherwise it is going to be micro hell. Suitably, that militia would upgrade as you research warfare/magic tech like city militia do.

 

 

He does mention upgrading the outposts with Wardens to "keep the monsters at bay" so I assume this is the equivalent of militia, no?

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June 30, 2012 3:58:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

wow, thats how FE will become a great game: Not wildly throwing funny concepts together, but instead contructing a gear-system, where everything fits in - great!

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June 30, 2012 4:01:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Will there be a change so that you can't raze any external resource before owning it, and to capture them you need to capture the city or outpost (given that cities will take up less space on the map)?

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June 30, 2012 4:31:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ins2,
He does mention upgrading the outposts with Wardens to "keep the monsters at bay" so I assume this is the equivalent of militia, no?

 

 Well it could just mess with the monster AI and prevent them attacking. It might not be a garrison, though that might be a separate option i suppose. In the description he said they can "scare away monsters" so thats where I'm getting this.

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June 30, 2012 4:33:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great update Derek. Giving us al this information really shows how much good thinking you guys put in the upcoming update. Eager to test out the city differentiation. Seems like a very interesting idea to connect this to the three tech trees.

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June 30, 2012 4:48:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So is the tile placement system still in there? I sure hope it  serves some purpose now if it is.

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June 30, 2012 6:20:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great. Thx Derek.

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June 30, 2012 6:29:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
3.            Basing the economy, research and production directly on population is painful/impossible when cities can grow from 1 from 600 population.  Whatever bonus we give for those resources on a 10 population city become 60 times as high on a 600 population city.  Lesson 1: To control game pace, control your ranges.
Or you could just stick a logarithm in the function.

Build lists also don’t become huge since you only see the highest tier you have access to (you only see the Pier, not the Dock and Harbor it upgrades to).
Probably should show those somewhere, maybe not under their own listing but somewhere in the UI of the pier.

Instead of getting money, research and production from the population, they now come from the city level.  A village (city level 1) produces 1 research a turn, a level 5 city produces 16 research per turn.
So once your city gets to level 5, any further growth is useless?

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