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Rebellion Balance Verdict, a Review in Full by [DT]Radioactive.

By on June 19, 2012 4:18:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nightraid3r

Join Date 04/2008
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So, I have put much time and energy into playing the game for the sole purpose of examining the balance in Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion.  Here are my findings:

 

Race Balance:

TEC: Overall, I am fairly pleased with how the TEC has emerged into Rebellion.  Currently, Both the TEC Rebels have their fare share of advantages and drawbacks.  At the end of the day, I believe that the TEC Rebels have a slight edge on the TEC Loyalists.  This is because I generally think that the TEC Rebel Titan is more effective at killing corvette spam when used with proper micro.  The Loyalists do not give enough advantage for an eco start.  I almost wish that instead of easier access to the Novalith cannons, the TEC Loyalists would have cheaper trade ports (750 credits, 100 metal, 125 crystal).  I get that the TEC Loyalist is designed to be mainly defensive and a superweapon focus, but from a lore standpoint and a game standpoint this does not make much sense to me at all.  If they are the Loyalists, why are they digging in if their race is in rebellion?  Shouldn't they be the aggressors trying to reunite their race?  Seems backwards to me, maybe I'm crazy.

Bottom Line: TEC Loyalists should be the one subfaction that gets cheaper trade ports for an enhanced eco start.  Based on my observation and discussion with other top tier players, TEC Rebels seems to be the more popular of the two subfactions.

Advent: I think Advent is the outright weakest faction overall, and the Advent Loyalist subfaction is simply pathetic.  The Advent Loyalist titan is terrible, and they only have 1 unique tier 8 tech, and it is pretty pathetic.  Damage boost in culture?  Really?  That's what you have to look forward to late game as the Advent Loyalists, I mean that's it.  You look at other races like the Vasari whose subfactions have unique tier 7 weapons upgrades that give MASSIVE damage boosts, and the Advent Loyalists have only a feeble 5% damage boost in its own culture.  Amazingly, the Advent Rebels have 0 unique tier 8 techs, and are still better than the Advent Loyalists, simply on the merit of their titan alone.  I just don't understand how the other factions and sub factions could get such cool end tier stuff, and an Advent player has almost nothing new to look forward too.

Bottom Line: Part of what made Advent playable in Diplomacy was it's advantage in the "tier 0" or immediate early game, where the combination of disciples, scouts, and defense vessels was pretty mean.  Now, everybody can get corvettes easily and the Advent lost it's early game advantage.  It is now the weakest in the early game, mid game, and late game, and the combination of those three means that, yep you guessed it, the weakest over all.  I used to like to go random, but rolling advent is such a disadvantage that I don't do it anymore.  I would suggest:

  • Tier 0 corvettes (does not require a military lab)
  • Each subfaction gets "elite" damage upgrades.  For example, the Rebels get a fourth grouping of upgrades for laser and plasma weapons, while the Loyalists get a fourth group of upgrades for beam weapons.  This makes sense after you gave the Vasari and the TEC a similar opportunity.
  • More unique techs in general.  Seriously how could it be that there is no tier 8 unique weapons tech for the Advent Rebels?  How does this make any sense?  The unique techs that are there are barely worth getting.
  • A great example for the Advent Rebels could be allowing them to use their repair platforms to repair shield and hull damage. I have always thought the Advent to be at a big disadvantage purely because they can heal less of the total health of their ships.
  • Total rehaul of the Advent Loyalist Titan (seriously... wtf)
  • Total rehaul of the Revelation Battlecruiser, this thing is so incredibly terrible I think the only time I would build one is by mistake.
  • The antimatter cost of the "Fracture" ability on the Discord Battleship should probably be increased to 55 or 60 because it really is a terrific ability and the Discord is probably my favorite new capital ship.

Vasari: I seriously just don't know what the developers were thinking when they developed the Vasari for Rebellion.  This race badly needed some beta adjustments that it never got because the beta was unplayable with minidumps and desyncs.  The Vasari Loyalists and Rebels come in ranking #1 and #2 respectively of all of the subfactions.  The Vasari Loyalists are so terribly broken with "Strip to the Core" that most hosts with the slightest desire for balance ban players from choosing Vasari.  There is almost nothing good about the ability.  It takes away late game strategy by destroying planets logistic slots and gives way too many resources and credits.  More on this and how to fix it in the bottom line.  The Vasari Rebels are awesome, but due to the sheer brokenness of the Loyalists, they are overshadowed.  The Moving Starbases, massive late game phase missiles makes this race a huge competitor.

Bottom Line:The Vasari are overpowered.  Not just a little bit, they are broken.  I really can't think of many disadvantages besides having to make two weapons labs to research the early game corvettes, but even this is hardly a disadvantage.  So many changes need to be made I will break the "what needs to be done" into two sections.

For the Loyalists:

  • Strip to the Core just needs to be removed.  There is no way to balance this ability that will make it fit in with the rest of the game.  It just dumbs down the game to have so many planets deemed worthless except for extractors.  If even 2 people play the Loyalists on a Huge Random Single Star, 40 minutes in, 1/3 of the planets or more could be gone for the rest of the game.  This just ruins the game for me almost completely.  The other three techs that lead up to the Strip to the Core are still good enough where I would consider getting them without the possibility of core stripping.
  • If the Strip to the Core stays in the game, it should take three minutes instead of one, to force people to kill at least the siege frigates before leaving.  This should also not be affected by the "Improved Salvaging ability".  It should also give half the credits and a third of the resources.  The tech itself should be a tier 8 tech, and shipboard labs should be a tier 6 one.
  • The Level 6 ability on the Vasari Loyalist Titan is really pretty silly.  Named "The Maw", it is admittedly the only redeeming quality of an otherwise pathetic titan, but SERIOUSLY? The immediate destruction of all nearby enemy ships, and on top of it extra resources!  After all the fuss about how OP the avoidable missile barrage was back in vanilla sins, I don't know how this ability snuck past quality assurance.  At least give the victim of the Maw a chance to escape if he is paying attention.
  • The Tier 8 tech "Accelerated Wave Cannons" is maybe too big of an upgrade for wave cannons.  I don't know how it seems wise to grant 40% extra weapon damage in two techs.  This ideally should be halved, so goes from 30%->40% and then 40%->50% on the second tech.
  • The Vasari Loyalist Titan spawning phase stabilizers on "Capital Victory" mode is pretty rediculous.  This combined with Kostura Cannons makes it almost impossible to defend your home planet.  Player A fires Kostura at Player B homeworld, lays down a phase stabilizer, and then streams ships into the homeworld until there is nothing the defending player can do.
  • Returning Armada needs to be fixed.

For the Rebels:

  • My First complaint is they have 0 unique techs in the Empire tree, yes, 0.
  • Secondly, Jumping Starbases is, a little broken without some limitations.  I propose that there be a cooldown on the jump timer, and that After you research the jumping ability, it also takes up an upgrade slot on the starbase.  I think the upgrade cost should be proportional to 2700 credit level of upgrades.  Another possibility is no cooldown on the jumping and making the upgrade also include a capital ship supply and 100 fleet supply.
  • I also think the "Phasic Strike" tier 3 tech in the Warfare tree should not affect starbases.
  • The tier 8 Armor-Hull combo upgrade for the Rebels is amazing, but too much so.  It should be broken to 4.0 Armor and 20% hull and in two techs, so each tech does 2.0 armor and 10% hull increase.

Overall:

  • It seems like nobody put any legitimate thought into the Rankulas, and you ran out of time and were just like, "let's put 3 abilities that are pretty unoriginal.

 

Ship Balance:

Flak: These ships should never have been nerfed as badly as they were.  The reason corvettes seem overpowered is that the best counter, Flak, got nerfed into oblivion.  I think the Flak need to be buffed again, and then the corvette spam will meet its match quicker and there won't be massive battles of 200 corvettes vs 200 corvettes.

Corvettes: I don't really like corvettes, but I am getting used to them.  I think they are too good at countering too many dfiferent kinds of ships.  The only ships that I tihnk they are really weak against is flak, but they counter pretty much every other kind of ship out there.  I propose:

  • The Corvettes should remain a viable counter to Long Range Frigates and Titans.
  • The Corvettes should do less damage vs light frigates, heavy cruisers, and capital ships.
  • The Corvettes should struggle against flak.
  • The Corvettes should cost 10% more across the board.
  • They even the playing field in fighting for neutrals, to the point where it takes one of the classic advantages of the vasari away because of corvettes strength against scouts.  One possible thing you could experiment with is making scouts a little more powerful so the Vasari player does not feel like he cannot fight far away for neutrals because the closer Advent and TEC players can pump out corvettes and keep him away with relative ease.
  • Ideally, corvettes should have their own armor and damage types to make balancing them a lot easier.

 

Comments, Criticism, Insults are welcome.

 

[DT] Radioactive.

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June 19, 2012 4:39:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think you're a little harsh on the Maw and Accelerated Wave cannons. The Ragnarov or Eradica is probably going to inflict much more damage overall with their AoEs even if the Maw is an instant kill, and you have to wait until level 6 to get it. And Accelerated wave cannons need that big of a bonus to make Enforcers worth building more than assailants or bombers with phase missiles. Also, nothing on Nano Leach?

Otherwise I mostly agree, glad I'm not the only one who though Armor restoration will need to be nerfed a bit once the really OP things get removed.

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June 19, 2012 4:40:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

That's a really good analysis. Sadly, Advent Loyalists are my favourite faction
for some strange reason and I've still been stubbornly playing them online.
In a serious competitive game I'd go for the Rebels though.

I'm not at my home comp so I can't check anything but I'd be interested to
see a breakdown of the number of unique research items available to all factions at all tiers - not
just tier 8. The Advent may not have much special late game but they have
most of theirs in the mid tiers. Advent Loyalist have one unique tier7
military tech that I always get, which may be the one you referred to, but it
does more than just buff damage and I thought it doesn't require friendly
culture. I think the Loyalist Titan, as a support titan, needs an innate
way to last longer in battle if it isn't going to be a damage dealer itself. Easy way
is to buff health and shields. Another way would be to give it a faster passive
regen tied to an ability or some other healing ability.

You forgot to include the Vas Rebel Titan's Nano-Leech, one of the most brokenly OP abilities in the game.

The only way to change corvettes as you propose, it to give them their own
damage type, which multiple people have suggested already.

A lot of this will depend on how much Vasari get "adjusted" in the next patch.

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June 19, 2012 4:49:16 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I believe there used to be Tier 8 tech(s) for the Advent Rebels but they were moved to earlier in the tech tree because they weren't good enough for Tier 8.  I also think it's weird that the Advent factions were the the only ones not to receive better weapons or armor tech.  

 

As for the Coronata/Advent Loyalist Titan, I think the main issue with that is that it's a support titan which relies on it's fleet for damage, which is cool idea, but with abilities like Nano Leech, The Maw, Chastic Burst, disruption matrix, everything the Raganov has...within the first minute the Coronata loses the fleet it's supposed to support/it needs for firepower.  It needs abilities to keep it's fleet alive for damage/unity mass.  Suppression Aura alone isn't cutting it because of the fleet destroying titan abilities.  Especially the maw, nothing like watching the fleet you need to use Unity Mass get insta-gibbed in the first 10 seconds of the battle.

 

TEC Loyalists do need something to compensate the the nerf they got when superweapons were limited.  The cheaper trade ports would be nice and fit in well with them I thinks.

 

 

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June 19, 2012 4:49:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,
That's a really good analysis. Sadly, Advent Loyalists are my favourite faction
for some strange reason and I've still been stubbornly playing them online.
In a serious competitive game I'd go for the Rebels though.

I'm not at my home comp so I can't check anything but I'd be interested to
see a breakdown of the number of unique research items available to all factions at all tiers - not
just tier 8. The Advent may not have much special late game but they have
most of theirs in the mid tiers. Advent Loyalist have one unique tier7
military tech that I always get, which may be the one you referred to, but it
does more than just buff damage and I thought it doesn't require friendly
culture. I think the Loyalist Titan, as a support titan, needs an innate
way to last longer in battle if it isn't going to be a damage dealer itself. Easy way
is to buff health and shields. Another way would be to give it a faster passive
regen tied to an ability or some other healing ability.

You forgot to include the Vas Rebel Titan's Nano-Leech, one of the most brokenly OP abilities in the game.

The only way to change corvettes as you propose, it to give them their own
damage type, which multiple people have suggested already.

A lot of this will depend on how much Vasari get "adjusted" in the next patch.

I don't mind the nano leech only because a bomber spam makes that ability worthless, and it its after all a titan, it could use some tweaking, sure, but it isn't he most brokenly op ability.

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June 19, 2012 5:11:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Aww now I'm sad to read this. I just started a 3 star, 8 player FFA map last night (me vs AI) and got Advent Loyalists. 

 

I don't really do the multiplayer thing since I don't have the time for it.. hopefully I don't get screwed over by being AL.

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June 19, 2012 5:22:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

While you were a little harsh on the devs and maybe a little too heavy handed with the nerf hammer, overall I agree with your assessments or at least their train of thought.

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June 19, 2012 5:24:14 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

A long way to boosting advents could be fixed resource focus by making it passive.   

Otherwise I agree with most you said.

Perhaps to sort out strip to the core it should

  • give resources over time (eg 10 minutes and all the time you need to keep control of the planet)
  • be effected by fleet supply you are using 
  • or just tie it to their titan which means titan needs to be present to strip and ability would have like 2-3 min cool down) 
Yes I strongly agree as well that advent needs some weapon boost like all other races are getting. But with all advent synergies I would be really careful as to how much boost they should get. I also think that repulse should not work on titans.

 

True given I haven't played a lot of games against really skilled players but I found solution to corvette fights. Perhaps it wouldn't work against likes of you. 

Let me see what you think.

I usually start with 20-40 corvettes just so I can repel initial corvette rush then I go for flak until I get 30 or so. 30-40 is sweet spot for flak which enables you to kill corvette spam and structures fairly quick. Until this point most of the time I am cautious but once I get this I am ready to attack. If he tries to bypass me with  corvettes I go for his factories and later on force him to retreat or hunt his corvette fleet down. If he starts pumping LF I either go LRMs or some more corvettes if he go flak I use corvettes as harassment tool to kill his resource mines constructors and labs. Of course this is all simultaneous to expanding and grabbing easily taken planets. 

This strategy usually worked quite good. Sometimes against skilled as well.

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June 19, 2012 5:24:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Although I agree that destroying planets is ruining the game, I don't think that devs will be willing to remove VL "flavour" tech, which was actually marketed as one of the  features of Rebellion.

 

Another way of nerfing this ability would be limiting it to deserts and terrans (make up some nerdy lore explanation), which, additionally, turn into normal asteroids instead of dead ones. Way more balanced IMO.

 

Quoting Greg30007,
A long way to boosting advents could be fixed resource focus by making it passive.  

I was successfully holding mecha while I was getting 5-8 planets and trade up.

This is simply not true. You lost all your extractors outside of HW to corvette raid. Without feed from Higgy you would be toast. Maybe post that glorious replay please.

 

 

 

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June 19, 2012 5:34:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I totally agree Advent Loyalists make it not worth going Random at all. The do however have Ancient Retribution which is a good tech. The other damage based techs are Planet for Planet and Assimilated Populace, though I'm not sure how much of a tactical advantage they give. 

It's really just the Advent Rebels that got zero damage boosting research. This of course gets overshadowed by their Titan which is in the 1 or 2 easily. Plus their other techs like Cleanse and Renew, Expulsion and Protection of the Unity are pretty oh-hum in terms of actual impact.

 

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June 19, 2012 5:40:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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June 19, 2012 5:51:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
Well bottom line it really doesn't matter because you are to proud to admit that some games you loose.

You delete replays after 3 days? LOL Greg, you're hitting new low.

You didn't even touch any of my planets.

You can't troll a troll. Better keep playing AI. It's easier to dream then.

Quoting Greg30007,
I did post reply of game with doci on forums though which If I remember correctly your comment was that it was silly little game....

It was lame, little game. Only reason why you posted it is because you managed to kill crippled Doci.

 

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June 19, 2012 5:56:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Nightraid3r,



Quoting Ekko_Tek,
reply 2
That's a really good analysis. Sadly, Advent Loyalists are my favourite faction
for some strange reason and I've still been stubbornly playing them online.
In a serious competitive game I'd go for the Rebels though.

I'm not at my home comp so I can't check anything but I'd be interested to
see a breakdown of the number of unique research items available to all factions at all tiers - not
just tier 8. The Advent may not have much special late game but they have
most of theirs in the mid tiers. Advent Loyalist have one unique tier7
military tech that I always get, which may be the one you referred to, but it
does more than just buff damage and I thought it doesn't require friendly
culture. I think the Loyalist Titan, as a support titan, needs an innate
way to last longer in battle if it isn't going to be a damage dealer itself. Easy way
is to buff health and shields. Another way would be to give it a faster passive
regen tied to an ability or some other healing ability.

You forgot to include the Vas Rebel Titan's Nano-Leech, one of the most brokenly OP abilities in the game.

The only way to change corvettes as you propose, it to give them their own
damage type, which multiple people have suggested already.

A lot of this will depend on how much Vasari get "adjusted" in the next patch.


I don't mind the nano leech only because a bomber spam makes that ability worthless, and it its after all a titan, it could use some tweaking, sure, but it isn't he most brokenly op ability.

I wouldn't say bomber spam makes that ability worthless. Nano-leech makes your frigates and HCs worthless in return. He already knows you will have to bomber spam so he can easily prepare flak in response. 

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June 19, 2012 5:58:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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June 19, 2012 6:08:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I didn't even turn on replay recording after release, but I'm not the one posting hilariously inaccurate information on a game without providing replay. If you are going to say something in public, back it up. If you can't, STFU.

I can make up stories too.

 

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June 19, 2012 6:09:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Mecha you really have been outdoing yourself with the trolling since Qu4r left...

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June 19, 2012 6:12:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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June 19, 2012 6:14:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

These forums need a replay section...so people can post games for download/discussion - would really help for balance, strategy, MP interest, etc.

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June 19, 2012 6:20:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Greg you are so 2nd rate.

Post that replay or shut up already.

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June 19, 2012 6:22:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

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June 19, 2012 6:28:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Greg30007,
Yep I hit a sore spot with that one

I refer you to your avatar.  Stop being a child and I don't care who started it, but end it now.  If you have something to say about balance, fine, but don't derail a thread i spent a lot of time on.

 

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June 19, 2012 6:33:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For Corvettes, LFs really should be effective against them. As it stands right now, people still never use LFs for anything. Mass Flak does counter Corvettes decently, but they come out at tier 2, while Corvettes can be spammed at tier 1. LFs really need to have something going for them.

I honestly miss the time where Scouts were commonplace. They countered LRFs, but LFs and Flak took out Scouts pretty easily. Good times. I feel that Corvettes were unnecessary to the counter system.

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June 19, 2012 6:36:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also to piggy back on the Kostura/Titan phase node issue. As Rebels I have been abusively using star bases as Phase gates paired with Kosturas to move my whole fleet anywhere on the map and back in moments. This level of hit and run mobility creates a tempo no other race can begin to counter. My opinion is either take it away from Vasari or give something to the other races to balance the field. Late game it's like a game of chess where Vasari gets 3 moves to everyone elses 1. Not only do I not know what I would do if someone did it to me and I wasn't Vasari, I've yet to see anyone do anything but crumble when I do it to them. I think not letting SB's travel through Phase nodes would be an excellent way to bring Rebel SB's close to the realm of fair.

Nailed it on Strip to the Core. Way too much juice, not nearly enough squeeze. Also, destroying planets so easily is a terrible dynamic on the map layout and the game in general imo.

Props to the Devs. After all these years of mini dumps, desyncs, and hosting issues that consistantly drove me off the deep end it appears they have finally made the game stable enough to lure me back. I can only hope they continue to try and appeal to the multiplayer community. Kudos sirs.

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June 19, 2012 6:40:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oddly enough there is no mention of the Corsev's OPness then again the Corsev is OP since it is such a great counter to the early game corvette rush and the fact it can dominate a large fleet battle with its passive tanking ability as well without any counter-AM capitals in the area.

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June 19, 2012 6:50:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@OP

Good post, spot on in your analysis.  I particularly feel most strongly about this issue:

I just don't understand how the other factions and sub factions could get such cool end tier stuff, and an Advent player has almost nothing new to look forward too.

Thats why I say: all the good ideas went to the tec and vasari, its like synergy is the ONLY thing advent get.  The synergy is spread out and so simple, with single enhancements where in all reality there should be multiple enhancements.  One trick ponies aren't that fun.  And since their synergy just keeps the advent on par with other races(it even got substantially nerfed when capital ships were granted more abilities), they aren't that remarkable.  All the good ideas went to the other races, despite the fact that many in the community were PROVIDING GOOD IDEAS BEFORE REBELLION WAS EVEN IN BETA. 

Yet I digress.  I'll play the game when the balance reaches a modicum of sense.

Good post Star, way to keep the fight alive and well.  Time to vent my frustration and perfect my Bardiche skills in slicing heads open at full gallop in mount and blade.

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June 19, 2012 7:01:55 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@OP. I generally agree with your sentiment. there are some things i dont agree on, i dont think corvettes need t obe more pricey.  However most of this will have to be revisited when 1.03 comes out whenever it comes out (any day now hopefully???)

 

If i had 2 cents to add, it would be that I still dont see anyone use dominas. And comparing their price with hohos, they are very very very expensive. Id consider reducing their cost a tad. or a bit more than a tad.

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