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[.915] Sovereign suggestion

By on June 11, 2012 12:45:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Umbra_Panthera

Join Date 05/2009
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I have read a bit on how people think the sovereign needs to be more unique and I wonder if it has been suggested that they just start with an apprentice level in every magic category (in addition to starting with 6 points for weapons, talents, armor, and additional caster ranks). This would make them both more powerful than the average champion as well as unique (though leveling could potentially be an issue since it increases the pool of available level up perks).

Additional choices for weapons or armor (I do not think there are any armor choices for initial creation at the moment) could also be useful (as well as be a sink for points if that is a concern).

Armor choices could be a full set of leather for a point or two, perhaps a shield.

Finally additional talents could be added to help spread out the use of creation points. I can not recall what is already present but things like increased carry capacity, extra movement, or additional bonuses similar to what exist (10% gold generation, other resource bonuses, etc.).

I have not read every post so this idea(s) may have already been suggested.

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June 11, 2012 2:26:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree that the Sovereigns need to be better indicated as "more" than their champion counterparts. Otherwise, why don't we have 35 factions? These sovereigns are world-benders for a reason.

 

I agree that a large portion of the solution lies in how they handle magic, but would be very against the "all sovereigns have all schools" method of doing so. First and foremost because of how it would dilute both the ability to gain higher level in magic without focusing on it to the exclusion of other things (5 schools filling up your trait pool at random instead of 2-3).

 

I feel that the solution lies in two things in terms of the magic aspect, and then others as indicated above.

 

First, sovereigns should be the only units casting global, city enchant, or strategic general spells. Those guys are badass spellcasters and the BREADTH of power that suggests helps support this. In addition, it helps limit what sort of access a given sovereign will have to spells in a given game (can;t rely on finding a Fire Champion to give you Curgen's Volcano). Champions, conversely, should be strictly limited to tactical spells, strategic summons, and unit enchants. They are casters, but not really super powerful ones.

 

Second. Champions should largely have access to one school of magic, with champions with a second school very rare. I think this is pretty much the case now, but have admittedly neither taken strict notes, nor seen every champion in the game (a testament to the number of champions there are)

 

Non-Magic Related. I would LOVE, as the OP suggested, to see the number of points we have at sovereign creation to increase, the actual costs of things to diversify, and additional legitimate equipment choices to appear. We do already have some pretty awesome magical choices to start with, but what if we want some standard, sturdy, simple armor?

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June 12, 2012 12:28:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree totally with your post Malsqueek.  And there are a few level 5 and higher champions that start with two or more spell schools.  Maybe this should be massively reduced.

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June 12, 2012 1:24:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Mals, you did it again, your a genious! , how is it you write what I am thinking about... Sneaky mind reading... Dragonthingie!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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June 12, 2012 2:01:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Completely agree with Mals here too.

Well thought out!!

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June 12, 2012 2:11:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have been waiting until Beta 4 to speak up about Sovereigns. After they fix improvements, things like this are hopefully on the table for improvement.

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June 14, 2012 11:45:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Conversely forcing a sovereign to start with all magics at a basic level encourages people to level up their preferred magic at creation, which would help with the idea that sovereigns are some sort of supreme conduit for magic.

I agree that champions should probably only ever have one elemental path.

The disadvantage of limiting global casting to the sovereign deals with those champions who have the higher tactical casting cost bloodline (or other penalties), which would make them poor combat casters (the particular champion I am thinking of has life, so could make an acceptable healer outside of combat, but relies upon physical might in combat and healing as a last resort). Without access to global spells they suffer in the casting department (which isn't always a bad thing, sometimes you have mages that aren't good at their jobs).

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June 14, 2012 1:06:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

On the champion-magic issue: Can we also have champions with better back-stories? I know you mostly only look at them once, and a few of them are good, but most of the backgrounds  boil down to "I fight for money", or "I like to kill good/bad/any things". To me, the come off as average schmucks, and the fact that these guys have magic further dilutes it for your sovereign. As others have said, it's incongruous enough that your sovereign leads a kingdom/empire because of his/her magic powers, but just as much, if not more, magical power can be hired for ~100 gold. It's worse when the other guy's back-story is "I read a book once".

 

"Oh you're Magnar? Oldest being alive? Apprenticed to the Black Sorcerer? You know the secrets of the Dread Lords? That's cool. Im Bob the Champion. I'm illiterate and come from a long line of rat catchers, but I'm a way better wizard than you."

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June 14, 2012 2:23:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I'n desighning my own sovereign I've found it pefectly feasble to just create magicless combat monsters who can single handedly bash enemy citys after a bit of decent equipment and leave the mana chanling to developed champions later in the game when spells are better and I have coqured more shards. This has been the first wining tacktic I found but it goes compleatly against the flavor portrayed in the intro vidio and what I've read so far.

I think to reinforce them as rulers and chanlers rather than just woundprof heros they nead to be tied into there kingdon/empire and vice versa a lot closser...

 I'd like to see soverens gain abilitys (mostly magical ones) and  on your nations status, eg. if you have the biggest city, have compleated the most quests, or are furthest down a particual reserch path.

 I'd also like your sovereign abilitys, location and current activity to have some suttle effect upon there nation, eg. if your soveren is currently standing on a shard all spells of that type should be a little more powerfull, if they are currently in a city it can build infulence structures quicker etc.

 

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June 14, 2012 3:21:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

What you want is EXCLUSIVE stuff for your sovereign, like spell, abilities or even equipment.

Anything that cannot be duplicated by a champion or army or race would fit here.

 

 

 

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June 24, 2012 2:20:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree.

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June 24, 2012 10:17:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Don't limit champions to a single elemental school.  I like playing magic users and buy books to introduce new schools to my champions.

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June 24, 2012 11:27:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Slicksyster,

Don't limit champions to a single elemental school.  I like playing magic users and buy books to introduce new schools to my champions.

 

Yes, but those books are a faction ability that you use to modify existing Champions. We have no truck with them.

 

Just saying that all champions start with one or rarely two schools.

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June 25, 2012 12:09:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As it stands right now for me, champions are pretty much worthless.   There is no need to have them.  I get my Sovereign up in levels and equipped he pretty much just auto kills everything, even deadly mobs.

I used to explore and grab as many NPCs as I could, but since you shouldn't have more then one in a stack (exp loss), I just don't bother.

Kingdom NPCs tend to have the lower end Gear and Abilities compared to Fallen.  As a result I just kill the Fallen and take all of their magical weapons and sell them. (side note, why is it now that items are only worth a 1/10 of their value..they are magical and valuable right?)

Or if I find that Administrator / Merchant NPC I will equip them and park them in a city for their bonus.  I don't do it for combat as I think in all the games I have played my cities are seldom attacked, probably because I am able to forge NAP with everyone and build up til I can walk over them.

At that point they are so weak I can just us my sovereign and auto battle them.  I don't even use any spells. No reason to. They are just a waste of time.  I just get that druss blade or frost / fire sword, champion armor, obsidian shield and my sovereign is unstoppable melee machine. I don't even make armies anymore.

So basically what I am saying is Sovereigns are powerful as is and Champions are the ones that need a new look at.

 

Champions are all bland to me as is...their skills and magic are pointless, Give them a weapon armor and they can do what a sovereign can if you bother to level them up.

Champions should be like this:

 

1. NPC is an adminstrator, ok. Then he should gain exp by being in a city assisting it to grow, not out fighting.

2. NPC is a merchant, This unit could improve roads and run trade missions..ie have special quests for them.

3. NPC caster, Make them have one area of skill, have the ability to have decent unique spells and for gods sake make the staves better.

4. NPC is assassin,  They can run assassination quests to eliminate unit's captains/generals/city officials.

5. NPC is Hunter, Does great against beasts and tends to enhance Horse/Warg abilities if stationed in a city.

6. NPC is Warrior/soldier/etc,  They and they alone can command units, tend to be good a one weapon (ie force to use something other then just  

           Uber sword). same for armor..help prevent all from wearing champion plate, mega shield, warhorse, uber sword..ie melee gods.

7. NPC is Adventurer, Only one able to do quests besides sovereign. Skill set towards this goal, They don't run cities or lead armies.

 

I could go into whole lot more detail and I might later, but for right now, Sovereigns are just like champions. They are all just best armor, best magic weapon, best shield, best mount melee machines.

 

I know other will say they use them differently and I applaud you for your ability to immerse yourself and role play the NPCs, ie mages only wear robes, wield a staff and use magic. Great for you. We all have different styles.

 

As the game stands right now I have played 5 games with the exact same results every time...On Hard mode for all, expand quickly, kill other sovereigns close them early. NAP with other, form trade and use them to advance my tech (which should be removed as I get 100-500+ tech points from it and out tech the NPCS), Use sovereign to do adventures, level up, get gear and slaughter all at end game. Not once do I have to worry about the NPCs attacking me or winning.

I would much rather see the time used to increase map size as Large seems small to me. If we aren't gonna have ships remove all water and just put in rivers.  Allow for better player starting areas or resources near them. I played to many games where the NPCs all have a gold mine next to them but I have never got one next to me on start.

Also make more interesting and challenging quest, diplomacy, and trade.  Maybe new trade items and please adjust the value perceived by the NPC. I am so tired of them not wanting my metal but then want to charge me X100 times more, or crystals being over valued.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to drag on.  I want to say that I do like the game and am hoping for a lot more improvement as it advances in Beta.

 

Oh, and it seems there is a bug with horse.  All my games I have them as a resource but can never buy them in store. I have to go to my neighbor and buy them.

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June 25, 2012 2:19:50 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Legacy of Serrane doesn't work - it doesn't provide Warhorses and it doesn't allow buying of regular horses either.  Get rid of Legacy of Serrane trait, and you'll be able to buy horses.  And if you have a city where the Stables is within city walls, you can buy Warhorses for your heroes too.

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July 1, 2012 4:38:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wouldn't limit champions to just one school.

I would give soverigns some big magical advanatage though. Whether it is ability to cast global spells, or ability to break the rules by casting multiple copies of spells in Tactical combat . 

 

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July 1, 2012 10:33:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BewareTheBarnacleGoose,
On the champion-magic issue: Can we also have champions with better back-stories? I know you mostly only look at them once, and a few of them are good, but most of the backgrounds  boil down to "I fight for money", or "I like to kill good/bad/any things". To me, the come off as average schmucks, and the fact that these guys have magic further dilutes it for your sovereign. As others have said, it's incongruous enough that your sovereign leads a kingdom/empire because of his/her magic powers, but just as much, if not more, magical power can be hired for ~100 gold. It's worse when the other guy's back-story is "I read a book once".

 

"Oh you're Magnar? Oldest being alive? Apprenticed to the Black Sorcerer? You know the secrets of the Dread Lords? That's cool. Im Bob the Champion. I'm illiterate and come from a long line of rat catchers, but I'm a way better wizard than you."

Agreed! 

http://forums.elementalgame.com/405814

Some ideas we talked about in 2011 regarding heroes and backstory...

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July 2, 2012 1:26:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Unfortunately, when all champions became magic users, I think the Sovereign became less powerful.  The Sovereign has become just your first champion.  If you work through the recruiting tech fast enough, they may not even be your best champion.  I still feel this has become a big mistake.  The Sovereigns were supposed to be unique in the fact that they could access the world's magic.  I like the imbuing part from WOM.  I really think they need to go back to this.  Champions should be fighters, and chosen by the Sovereign to become more.  However, this is at a cost to the Sovereign, they need to lose something.  Perhaps, they could change imbue to give a spell level to a Champion.  By giving the Champion a spell level it gives that Champion the ability to cast that school of magic.  However, the Sovereign loses a spell level.

 

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July 11, 2012 8:59:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Malsqueek,
I agree that the Sovereigns need to be better indicated as "more" than their champion counterparts. Otherwise, why don't we have 35 factions? These sovereigns are world-benders for a reason.
 
I agree that a large portion of the solution lies in how they handle magic, but would be very against the "all sovereigns have all schools" method of doing so. First and foremost because of how it would dilute both the ability to gain higher level in magic without focusing on it to the exclusion of other things (5 schools filling up your trait pool at random instead of 2-3).
 
I feel that the solution lies in two things in terms of the magic aspect, and then others as indicated above.
 
First, sovereigns should be the only units casting global, city enchant, or strategic general spells. Those guys are badass spellcasters and the BREADTH of power that suggests helps support this. In addition, it helps limit what sort of access a given sovereign will have to spells in a given game (can;t rely on finding a Fire Champion to give you Curgen's Volcano). Champions, conversely, should be strictly limited to tactical spells, strategic summons, and unit enchants. They are casters, but not really super powerful ones.

Second. Champions should largely have access to one school of magic, with champions with a second school very rare. I think this is pretty much the case now, but have admittedly neither taken strict notes, nor seen every champion in the game (a testament to the number of champions there are)

Non-Magic Related. I would LOVE, as the OP suggested, to see the number of points we have at sovereign creation to increase, the actual costs of things to diversify, and additional legitimate equipment choices to appear. We do already have some pretty awesome magical choices to start with, but what if we want some standard, sturdy, simple armor?

Totally going to expand on this again, as I've been thinking about FE champions alot lately and have decided to comment.

Love Mal's comments and they all hit spot on.

Your leader should be a 'super mage', the only one eventually able to access all areas of magic (with perhaps the ligh/dark limitations) and be the only one to cast city, global, and epic spells.

Your champions on the other hand, are hired hands, and should be treated as such. War mages should be as high as they get with specialization limited to tatical spells of a single magic type. Keep in mind that champions also have the wide variety of being assassins, warriors, administrators, etc....something that should be limited, but not completely unobtainable from your leader. This setup would require other champions to have a successul empire, but would still give your leader the option of specializing if, for some odd reason, he/she doesn't want to be the ALL POWERFUL mage.

Leaders should, imo, have way more detail into their design. It is an RPG afterall. The leveling is awesome, but he should also sometimes reach new plateaus of power....apprentice, mage, grand mage, etc; with each tier granting a special global bonus (or perhaps a choice of bonus). An example could be: Choose either access to a new element source type OR +1 combat to all your troop (paltipine style). Once the choice is made, it's possible you never get that choice again so it would mean each game is globally unique.

Additionally, the storyarch (if there is indeed one with this 'fallen enchantress' could/should progress according to your Leader's lvl (plateau power). Cutscenes could be done upon each new level as the story progresses. You as the player then KNOW something is coming...something big. You'd drive yourself to make the leader better in order to fight this entantress....which in turn would press the story on. Just thinking of this now.....maybe the power plateaus should be time based......say like in civ the time duration changes at different ages, in FE the powers you get change at different ages. Just throwing it out there...

Would also LOVE to see some quests that only your leader can do...especially in the mid to late game. That way, you can choose to do your own thing with your leader OR go on this quest. It's a choice. Empire vs Quest. Yet more decisions that you'd have to make.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter.

Hope you can use it.

 

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July 28, 2012 12:54:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I picked up WoM cheap off Amazon.  I was pointed at this site from the Master of Magic 2 wish site (I picked up MoM when it first came out, and still ocassionally enjoy a few games). I'll probably be signing up for FE fairly soon.

A "Sovereign" (ie Wizard as actual unit) is something I thought would have been an awesome addition to MoM.

Limiting champions to their own limited pool of mana, and/or perhaps just to tactical spell may work to differentiate champions.

Implementing a "Skill" trait limiting the amount of mana that the sovereign can burn on Strategic spells may also be a good thing.  The Master Spell certainly doesn't have the build up of the Spell of Mastery.

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July 30, 2012 8:00:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I too like the "only sovereigns can cast strategic spells" idea.

I, personally don't mind them learning other schools but what if champions had inherent bonuses (lower mana cost?) to the schools they start with, beyond just their level in that school?

 

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August 3, 2012 10:15:51 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting KingHobbit,

Unfortunately, when all champions became magic users, I think the Sovereign became less powerful.  The Sovereign has become just your first champion.  If you work through the recruiting tech fast enough, they may not even be your best champion.  I still feel this has become a big mistake.  The Sovereigns were supposed to be unique in the fact that they could access the world's magic.  I like the imbuing part from WOM.  I really think they need to go back to this.  Champions should be fighters, and chosen by the Sovereign to become more.  However, this is at a cost to the Sovereign, they need to lose something.  Perhaps, they could change imbue to give a spell level to a Champion.  By giving the Champion a spell level it gives that Champion the ability to cast that school of magic.  However, the Sovereign loses a spell level.

 

I like how AOW2 and AOW:SM handled thier heroes.

In order for hero to cast spells they have to get the ability "Spell casting (forget the actual name)"  and it would have different levels (1-5) which would dictate how much mana points that the hero had to cast a spell. Each level was 10 points so a Level 45 Spell Casting hero had 50 mana points to cast spells. This ability is choosen from a list of abilities (and there are a lot) that you can choose from each time a hero levels. Max level is 30.  So no you will not make every hero a magic using hero due to all the really cool abilities to choose from so you can specilize your heroes

And the game has an EASY to use Hero and Magic item creation system that you can use to put heros and magic items on your maps. They also have an ingame magic item creation building that you can build to create magic items (it is a high level magic building.)

The Kingdom has a mana pool as well that all mana to cast spells are pull from so if a hero has 50 mana but the pool is down to 20 mana then the Hero can only use up to 20 mana. Kingdoms generate mana each turn based on number of spell casting heros and mana nodes as well as a few other things.

The hero pull from the pool of spells that the Wizard (Soverign) had. Plus some heros could be made with the hero editor outside the game to have a spell unique to them if you want. But this is done outside the game and the hero added to the map your playing.

IT is a really good system

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