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Titans vs hard counters

By on April 16, 2012 1:14:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Shaky010

Join Date 12/2007
+2

Sorry all I have not been active on this forum for a very very long time but wanted to say that the expansion is awesome so far from what I have played.

 

However I have noticed that Titans need to have hard counters other than other titans.  To this I believe if suggestions can be taken a board is to have them susceptible to torpedoes.  I figure if they are like walking moving stations they should have that as a hard counter.

Now this would also mean that you could implement Titans not retaining levels when they are killed due to them having a hard counter unit.  It also means that when someone loses a Titan they are with all things permitted still able to be destroy other players Titan with a regular fleet.

Furthermore you could add more techs that allow you to upgrade Torp dmg for the late game so while Titans have a big impact they are not the be all end all of the game.

 

Anyway hope this suggestion is something to think about but loving the game either way.

 

 

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April 16, 2012 1:30:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't think they need a "hard" counter. The problem is many times your fleet is less than worthless against another titan because your destroyed frigates give the other titan XP to level it up. Thus your fleet becomes a liability rather than an asset against the opposing titan. Hence you need your own titan supported by capitalships and perhaps large amounts of corvettes and bombers, the latter two happen to both give little XP and are expendable.

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April 16, 2012 3:26:04 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

*removed because what I was trying to say didnt make sense.

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April 16, 2012 3:31:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Titans need a very hard counter that is completely useless against everything else. Something that has no place in your fleet except to take out Titans. Even if that hard counter only does something to shut down the weapon systems on the titan so it has to retreat or sit around being pummelled.

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April 16, 2012 3:49:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Honestly I'm really starting to think that frigates should stop giving experience to titans after level 3 or 4 or so.  Perhaps increase the experience rewards from destroying buildings & capital ships a bit to compensate.

 

A fleet of frigates should never be a liability.  

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April 16, 2012 4:04:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would rather have several unit-types to be be soft-counter to Titans, lets say corvettes, LRM frigates, light carriers, heavy cruisers and capships.

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April 16, 2012 9:30:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Personal I don't think Titan need enemies's counter Titan, but other titan and or very well balance fleet, titan is large ship and I wouldn't supsire if hull is much larger than ship wide base I see a video.

 

Edit: what I said there shouldn't need a single unit to counter titan but other titan or very well balance fleet.

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April 16, 2012 10:04:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just make them succeptible to capital ship skills, maybe to a lesser extent like 1/2 or 1/3 the duration. Meaning several capships could effectively shut down a titan, meaning its reduced to being a mobile fort/chunk of health/shields with lesser(depending on level) stats.

right now they're only vurnerable to weapon/movement speed reductions, passive regeneration reductions, and maybe one or two antimatter skills(afaik). I dont think they should be completely shut down(egnines + weapons + abbilities), but atleast preventing them from using abilities, and having engine/weapon disables translate into 50+% weaponspeed/movement speed reductions should go a long way in making fleets more viable against them.

If i recall a 100% reduction equals halfing its effectiveness right? so 100% less instead of a complete shutdown would prevent the titans from getting hunted down, but would make fleets more viable against them. And finally maybe Titans should become more hardened against such things the higher level they get? meanimg low level titans need to be more carefull without nerfing their endgame potential. (i suppose this might make titan leveling and racing towards one more important though)

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April 16, 2012 10:37:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Orgrov Torpedo Cruisers and Advent Adjudicators should be able to attack titans. They should at least test it to see what happens.

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April 16, 2012 10:51:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Admiral_Kiernyc,
Orgrov Torpedo Cruisers and Advent Adjudicators should be able to attack titans. They should at least test it to see what happens.
That would make a titan about as useful as a starbase currently is... Not a good idea.

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April 16, 2012 11:07:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not a fan of this. No reason to play advent at all if Ogrov's can target the Coronata and Eradica. It's tough enough if advent comes up a against a TEC Rebel titan as it is, plus hoshi's with dem-bots basically make your fleet worthless unless you went bomber spam.

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April 16, 2012 11:11:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The Advent Starbase using the Mass Disorientation ability can easily cripple even a titan and leave it vulnerable for a kill.   

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April 16, 2012 11:23:24 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Admiral_Kiernyc,
Orgrov Torpedo Cruisers and Advent Adjudicators should be able to attack titans. They should at least test it to see what happens.

Wow you really are like saying the Adjudicators are as useful as Orgrovs ^^. No offense, but Adjudicators are only useful at all if they can shoot multiple targets. As long as they wont fire all their 5 guns at the titan together, they won't do any more damage than most other cruisers would do.

Point is, only TEC would benefit from making them a viable target for the "siege" units, as Adjudicators are weaker anyway, Orgovs do damage like crazy and Vasari just don't have the mechanic at all, cause their anti starbase was a starbase?

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April 16, 2012 11:52:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If Titans had the same vulnerability to siege guns that Starbases do, it'd make attacking a Vasari Starbase with a Titan interesting...

Otherwise, yeah. It'd help the TEC because the Ogrov has huge range and does insane damage against Starbases. The Adjudicator is terrible in comparison.

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April 16, 2012 12:15:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would just make the Titan vulnerable to overpowering numbers, tbh.

Make it powerful against capitals, in fact, make it horrendously powerful against them. Able to scare caps off just by showing up. But make it fall to an actual army.

 

Ofc, the balance would need to be so that if I invested 60%+ of my pop into caps, then I cannot beat a titan with the remaining army. However if I got only 1-2 caps, supported by a large army, I can wear the titan down without taking anything equal to it's cost in damages.

 

HOW to do this, hrm... maybe a reduction to shield / armor if more than X non-strikecraft are attacking a Titan, causing large armies to take it out exponentially faster.

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April 16, 2012 12:17:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting DarkSide73,
The Advent Starbase using the Mass Disorientation ability can easily cripple even a titan and leave it vulnerable for a kill.   

Mass disorientation can be easily countered by humans (i.e. it can be interrupted).

  • Detonate Antimatter (Advent Radiance)
  • Disruption Matrix (TEC Loyalist Titan)
  • Disruptive Strikes (Vasari Kortul)
  • Magnetize (TEC Dunov)

 

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April 16, 2012 1:15:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Titans have a role in the game.  If you remove that role, then there is not point i making one.

With titans, you actually have to start scouting your enemy more to make sure he hasnt saved all his money to make a titan.

 

There's now a reason to make multiple caps other then making another one after your previous cap reached level 6.

 

Titans do have a hard counter and can be killed with bombers or HC. Remove a titans AM and you can easily kill with mass lrms.

 

The Devs have already nerf the titan from its initial incarnation.

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April 16, 2012 1:26:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Titans are horribly vulnerable against overwhelming numbers. A mid- to lategame fleet can take Titans apart. It's just that you feed the titan XP every time, so a player with enough resources can just keep suiciding the titan into an enemy fleet to level up.

Looking at the amount of XP you need to sink into a titan to make it fully effective I think the titan should not simply be reset. I liked the "keep level but loxe XP" bug in beta 1, but maybe that one is a little unrefined.

After reading various threads about titan leveling and XP my suggestion would be that a titan retains its level (and XP) up to level 4 after being destroyed, much like a capship can buy its level up to level 3. Also, similarly to the various crew training researches the races can do for normal capital ships there is a fifth titan research (tier 6 or 7) that adds "crew escape pods" that increase the retained level to a maximum of 6 (so you may retain the ability to use your "ultimate"). This reseach adds a visible effect to the titan (either on the hull or as part of the destruction animation) so other players know you researched the ability.

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April 16, 2012 3:27:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Admiral_Kiernyc,
Orgrov Torpedo Cruisers and Advent Adjudicators should be able to attack titans. They should at least test it to see what happens.

 

I can tell you right now what would happen: TEC would gain a hard counter to titans, the ot her 2 races would be more or elss the same as they are now.

 

 

If a counter to titans is created, it needs to be something equally available to all factions.

 

That said, I think the best change to make titans counterable is any change to make people not afraid to bring frigates along to fight them.  A large fleet of frigates poses a very real threat to a titan- it's just most people won't being said fleet for fear of feeding the enemy titan(which will be higher level afer the fight even if it's killed an needs to be revived).

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April 16, 2012 3:36:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,
If a counter to titans is created, it needs to be something equally available to all factions.

there alrdy is there called capitals ships and heavy cruisers

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April 16, 2012 3:43:20 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

light frigates?

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April 16, 2012 3:47:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yea I don't think there is a need for a "hard counter", the counters that we have now, they work well enough.

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April 16, 2012 4:11:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Light Frigates aren't a great counter because every time one dies it helps the Titan level. That's why Titans keeping full XP on death is silly.

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April 16, 2012 5:43:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think Titan levels after lvl 6 should cost about 5x what they cost currently.

That would limit how much of a liability smaller vessels are against them, reduce the impact of them keeping their levels, and reign in their effect on the game a bit generally.

All that while still letting them easily get enough levels for their "ultimate" abilities.

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April 16, 2012 5:49:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Tridus,
Light Frigates aren't a great counter because every time one dies it helps the Titan level. That's why Titans keeping full XP on death

 

Yeah, the more I think about the more I'm thinking titans should lose levels on death(maybe not start again at level 1, but there should be a loss).  If that were the case though, it would become even mroe important that they do something about the Eradica's ult doing nothing without getting it's self killed.

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April 16, 2012 7:09:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well either they lose levels when they die or actually up the cost and where it sits in the tech tree.  Early game shouldnt be about rushing titans it should be about small fleets doing damage and getting into late game should the titans be available. 

If you consider the tech tree solution you might want to consider where it will sits and the cost extra.

1. final stage should be on the same level as the super weapon considering how much of a difference it makes

2. fleet resources needed to build it should be changed: suggestion = make it have multiple techs thats researched in the fleet tree as well as. i.e. after fleet cap 4 you can use it to build a titan, also this would give it its own research and you could have an announcement someone is researching titan crews etc.  (room for improvment).

this would allow for the early game to still be an early game with frigates etc while late middle to late game would involve titans which is where you should actually see them.

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