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Addition of Titans possibly hurting Sins gameplay and balance

By on April 6, 2012 9:19:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Nightraid3r

Join Date 04/2008
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When I first heard about the titans, I was very excited about the concept.  After a few weeks of playing around with them, I am nowhere near as excited as I used to be.  The problem is they are not a strong addition for multiplayer.

The reason is the game is becoming a giant game of "don't feed the titan".  With Permanent xp and levels, there is every incentive for a player to risk his titan to kill a ton of frigates just to level it up.  As a result players are afraid to bring in frigates until LATE LATE LATE LATE LATE game for fear of leveling the other players titan too high.  Also, players are rushing the pirate base for experience and the guy who gets the level 3 titan from killing the pirate ships has a massive advantage.

Please, don't try to argue the "well if he goes to the pirate base, hes vulnerable elsewhere".  I thought that too, but sins is slow paced enough where you can't deal a decisive blow while he is leveling his titan.  Also, you may argue that suiciding your titan because of the cost and build time is foolish but if you take out enough ships to gain a level or 2, it was well worth it, because even if your opponent starts to push on you, you just bring your titan back out into play even more powerful than before and continue leveling it.

The only real and reasonable solution is to make it so xp and levels DO NOT carry over upon death.

 

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April 7, 2012 5:09:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In fairness, I'd be willing to bet a level 3 TEC titan (either one) with smartly spent points could of handled that Advent fleet fine solo in the previous build. Assuming the Advent titans would bring equal game isn't necessarily unreasonable, though definitely untrue.

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April 7, 2012 6:01:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Personally, I feel like the Titans are too much of a frigate/cruiser killer. I'd prefer if they were kept as a strict anticap weapon, with cruisers/frigates being it's counter.

A balanced fleet should have been either:

1. A larger amount of caps with no titan. (titan would hinder your xp progress to much)

2. Or a larger amount of cruisers/frigates with titan support

I don't like how you basically have to own a titan to counter another titan. Especially with their immunity to cc.

 What if they greatly reduced the base dmg/hp/armor of all caps and titans, but instead increased their power from levelups? Lvl 3 should equal the old lvl 1 etc.

 

 

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April 7, 2012 8:34:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lose XP, keep level. You retain abilities when you lose a titan, but to gain new abilities you have to regain all the XP you lost.

Minimal disadvantage once you get back into a fight, but it still drastically hurts you long term to lose a titan. And just suiciding into the pirate base doesn't help too much long term unless you survive, which would retain vulnerability elsewhere for the duration of that base attack.

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April 7, 2012 10:20:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,
I concur. Titans shouldn't keep their XP, but also if destroyed next titan should take 2x time to build to give winning player better chance to strike decisive blow. There are way too many "titan stalemates" now because titans in defensive positions are so hard to take out.

Mecha is completely right, and these stalemates do a lot to ruin the game's multiplayer appeal.

In essence, the victor of the stalemate situation is the person who gets the most feed, so the game becomes disproportionately ECONOMY based, moreso then it ever has been.  I say that eco spots need a longer buildup time, as they are becoming the main reason victories are occurring.

The fundamental balance in the game, military vs. economy is being skewed out of whack. 

I also agree with the OP, titans retaining XP is pointless IN MULTIPLAYER.
Single player should have XP retention in titans so that their fun isn't hampered.  This doesn't make sense in multiplayer at all(titans become an economic game).

I don't see why both sides can't have their cake and eat it too.  All the posturing of "us vs. them" is pointless.

 

 

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April 7, 2012 11:30:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
In essence, the victor of the stalemate situation is the person who gets the most feed, so the game becomes disproportionately ECONOMY based, moreso then it ever has been. I say that eco spots need a longer buildup time, as they are becoming the main reason victories are occurring.


Sareth, sorry for throwing you in front of the bus here, but I have to ask... I hear a lot of talk about online MP (which I never really got into), eco and suicide spots, and think I understand the terminology fine. But it seems to be implied that, all else being equal, a player didn't need to have the most/best worlds or strongest economy to win, which confuses me a little. In my limited experience, it's always been the strongest economy wins. Was this ever not the case? As said, lets set aside experience/difficulty levels and tactical blunders for the sake of the conversation.

I want to point out that I'm being sincere here. I really am getting the feeling I'm missing something important.

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April 8, 2012 12:16:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Recently I watched the advent titan backed up with about 5-7 capital ships take down an entire fleet of over 300 ships.... they had no support ships and no frigs or cruisers to help it was just them assaulting a capital planet. I was playing the rebel TEC at the time and was astonished to watch this. I quickly moved my entire fleet of 12 cap ships, my titan and over 300 ships to intercept and managed to focus the titan down in about 1.5mins of beating on it... it gained 2 levels from the fight previously before I could get there and my titan was level 2... 2 levels  below it. enitrely OP in my opinion.

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April 8, 2012 12:43:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sunshineaiten,
Recently I watched the advent titan backed up with about 5-7 capital ships take down an entire fleet of over 300 ships.... they had no support ships and no frigs or cruisers to help it was just them assaulting a capital planet. I was playing the rebel TEC at the time and was astonished to watch this. I quickly moved my entire fleet of 12 cap ships, my titan and over 300 ships to intercept and managed to focus the titan down in about 1.5mins of beating on it... it gained 2 levels from the fight previously before I could get there and my titan was level 2... 2 levels  below it. enitrely OP in my opinion.

 

I assume what you encountered was an eradica-progenitor combo, possible with supporting Discords or Radiances for maximum AoE destruction.  One thing the Advent(especially the rebels really do have the most of is raw AoE damage(which makes them very strong in situations where the opponent's strength is primarily concentrated on large frigate fleets).  Right now Eradica(while rather lacking in most other areas) does pose one of the largest AoE threats on the battlefield as far as titans are concerned(though I'd say the TLT is still better as it also silences, allowing a marza missile barrage 11-14 seconds of immunity to interupts).

 

Seriously though, a leveled up TLT with a level 6 marza basically means it doesn't matter how big the enemy advent fleet is, it's going to get it's frigates shredded and there's not much they can do to resist it.  At least with the advent AoE you can use standard AoE-counters(widespread hull/shield repairs & damage absorbs) and the advent AoE will only hit a portion of your fleet rather then the whole damn thing.

 

 

 

All that said: yeah advent's late game is very strong: it always has been(mostly for reasons completely unrelated to rebellion).  But their early game and economy are bad.   When super late game more or less mature TEC/advent fleets clash advent should have the advantage-the TEC gets to said late game faster(better economy) and has a stronger early game(hoshikos, tier 2 LRF, T1 repair platforms, & better economy) to compensate.

 

 

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April 8, 2012 12:52:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You know, my post is just going to get lost in this mess but I might as well say something ...

 

Everyone is concerned that if you get rid of the Titan's keeping their XP and levels that the first person to lose their titan will lose the game.

 

You know, it's a very EASY solution in my mind (Warning!: Opinion). Do not make Titans such a 'I built a Titan! I WIN!!!!' unit?! Just make them HEAVY CAPITAL SHIPS! instead of this ungodly monstrosity that you have to make game breaking mechanics to make work.

 

Is this REALLY such a hard thing for people to accept?  

 

/rant

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April 8, 2012 12:56:46 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You are quite correct I did encounter that combination when I went back and watched the save game. Discords are amazingly powerful and have 4 of them out of the (now that i took the time to count) 8 cap. ships they had backing up the titan. The only way I can honestly see beating a titan who is higher level is to micro manage all my cap ships offensive and defensive abilities to better save my ships from becoming wiped out and to focus fire the titans down. Thus which is helpful.... vettes since they are op and you can build 200 of them extremely fast and move them around so fast the enemy doesnt have time to move a fleet to intercept while they do the initial damage to the titan.

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April 8, 2012 4:23:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting bilun,
That said there really should be a titans disabled game mode. And while they're at it, upon the game's release & the implementation of any ELO system/matchmaker I think there should be a seperate Queue & ELO for titans enabled/disabled.

I'd like to see separate options for both "No Titans" and "No Corvettes" as optional game settings so that people can play it "Diplomacy-style" if they want. The marketplace will then decide.

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April 8, 2012 4:31:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not sure if its mentioned already but what if i decide NOT to build a Titan?

I level up my capital ships, (8 of them on decent levels). After a while i come acros an enemy Titan, I do manage to destroy it but in the fight im losing like half of my capital ships.

SO obviously i am rebuilding my capital ships, but now there is a difference.. while the enemy Titan is leveled up my capital ships are at 0 again. screwed much?

If i remember correct one of the producers said (or whatever he was) you either focus on leveling up your tech tree or focus creating a Titan. However i have the feeling you better get a Titan right away, let it defend your base and then focus on leveling up your tech tree. It should take (allot) more research to create a Titan.

ps. i find the Titan concept awesome only it needs some tweaks.

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April 8, 2012 5:56:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

What if it were changed to something like:

 

change 1: Titans don't share experience with capital ships.  Experience gain of titans is not reduced by the presence of allied capital ships.

 

change 2: titans can only gain experience from killing frigates up to level 3 or so(maybe 4 at the highest).  increase titan experience from destroying structures, capital ships, and other titans appropriately so they can still reasonably level up

 

change 3: Titans lose 1 level on death.  This will certainly be a significant loss above level 3 as those levels can only really be gained by killing higher value targets

 

 

Step 1 means people don't have to be afraid of gimping their titan's level up rate by protecting it with a retinue of capital ships. Step 2 means frigate fleets are less of a liability once the enemy gets a titan as they can only feed it so much.  Step 3 means there's a significant loss when a titan is destroyed- but one that doesn't essentially spell defeat as restarting a titan at level 1 would do.

 

Step 2 could also make it harder to level titans in general, making investing in a titan a greater risk against opponents who just invest in a traditional fleet.

 

Well these changes would have pretty broad implications so they'd may be too much.  They just seemed to me the most obvious solutions to what I perceive as problems(little real loss when a  titan is destroyed, needing to feed titans exp and avoiding feeding enemy titans leading to minimal use of supporting capital ships and frigates in general).

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April 8, 2012 6:03:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For PVP ti 5v5 gamers titan when dead should loose bouth level and xp.

For comp stomp people want to keep bouth level and xp.

Bouth sides has totaly opposite point of view.

Solution is to make an option for host to choose , like Whip already sad.

Host should be able to choose if he wants titanl to keep leve and xp or not

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April 8, 2012 7:17:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

keep titan exp and level is VERY nessassary, i dont see how u can ever win in a pvp situation where ur opponent's titan is 6 levels higher. Now a  punishment to player who lost the titan could be achieved by long re-build time, say 1 minutes extra for each level of titan, this way a level 6 titan will take about 10 minutes to resurrect which gives opponent a big enuf window to grab a planet or two or break a stradegical defense point.

erasing titan level and exp will simply make them useless in late game where facing a reasonable large fleet.

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April 8, 2012 8:00:48 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Kick the XP persistence to the military research tab. Make it off by default, but researchable.

 

Create some kind of new research called, I don't know, 'Persistent Doctrine'.

Have it cost a lot of resources, be tier 8, and have three ranks. 30%, 60% and 100%.

 

So that if you put in a lot of money, you can have a Titan retain all its gained XP after death. But without the research, Titans are reset to 0 when rebuilt.

 

It would balance the issue by trading economic supremacy for military supremacy - a core tenet of the game's balance - and it would mean that even Titan combat escalates in a progressive manner during the course of a match. Early Titan fights are more glass cannon, late game Titan fights require a combined arms approach because they come back stronger.

The balance would come from just how much each tier of the research costs. Make it hugely expensive and hugely time consuming to attain. But powerful once gotten.

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April 8, 2012 8:32:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

How about having them lose all their progress to their next level when they die?  Still an annoying hit, but when you bring it back, you won't have to baby it until it grows up again.

-Twi

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April 8, 2012 10:19:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think when a Titan dies it should leave behind a carcass. A wrecked version of the ship model floating in space.

 

I don't know what attributes or gameplay elements would be attached, if any, but it would be a cool monument to a pivotal battle.

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April 8, 2012 10:50:32 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting The_Scarab,
Kick the XP persistence to the military research tab. Make it off by default, but researchable.

 

Create some kind of new research called, I don't know, 'Persistent Doctrine'.

Have it cost a lot of resources, be tier 8, and have three ranks. 30%, 60% and 100%.

 

So that if you put in a lot of money, you can have a Titan retain all its gained XP after death. But without the research, Titans are reset to 0 when rebuilt.

 

It would balance the issue by trading economic supremacy for military supremacy - a core tenet of the game's balance - and it would mean that even Titan combat escalates in a progressive manner during the course of a match. Early Titan fights are more glass cannon, late game Titan fights require a combined arms approach because they come back stronger.

The balance would come from just how much each tier of the research costs. Make it hugely expensive and hugely time consuming to attain. But powerful once gotten.

 

 I like this idea

 

Quoting The_Scarab,
I think when a Titan dies it should leave behind a carcass. A wrecked version of the ship model floating in space.

 

I don't know what attributes or gameplay elements would be attached, if any, but it would be a cool monument to a pivotal battle.

 

Also a good idea this wreck should be slavageable only by the titan that died here and he would regain all lost xp ( 2-3-xxx levels)

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April 8, 2012 11:39:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Imo, titan abilities should be removed from the xp system and implemented in their own tech tree (like defence or diplomacy, except not). Hear me out here.

 

First, the four prototype technologies should be at levels 1-4 as is now. Then, when the fourth is researched, new research should become available: level 5 would have the first level of each ability, level 6 the second, level 7 the third, and level 8 would have fourth-level abilities as well as the ult. Researching the ult would be contingent on having a certain number of lower techs already researched, too. All of these researches should start off expensive and become progressively so. I wouldn’t consider 5k credits at all overkill for a level 4 ability or an ult, for example. Likewise, for abilities like level 1 snipe shot, we shouldn’t really be balking at paying ~2k credits. This will slow down titan construction immensely, which imo is a very good thing. We’ll end up seeing players be more willing to hunker down and entrench a broad economic base so that they can push out an upgraded titan.

 

Second, abilities should only be modifiable at the titan foundry. It should take, say, a two-minute cooldown to apply an ability to a titan, so that buffing your titan back up to its state upon death would take a lot of time, immobility (and possibly removal from your front line), but not a vast sum of credits (this would have been paid for when you initially researched the technology). (edit: I should add that a two-minute cooldown would be required for each level of an ability application. So upgrading your titan slowly but surely as you research the technologies would be viable, but if you lose your titan, it's going to be a long, long road getting it back up to speed again)

 

In doing this, building a titan foundry on your frontline would be incentivized, so that the titan could be re-buffed while still being a deterrent to invasions - but more importantly, your opponent would have a more viable method to counter your titan - destroying your frontline foundries. If you don't have a frontline foundry, well, fine - it'll be safe, but your titan will be kept out of the fight while it's being upgraded to its full strength again. In addition, this will incentivize the delaying of titan construction, again.

 

Thirdly, this allows for further titan-specific research to be conducted. Vasari/TEC/advent could have differing buffs to titan construction - reduced build time/reduced research time/faster upgrade application, for example.

 

Finally, titans should remain part of the xp system, even though they would no longer gain "ability points" - they'd still gain progressively larger amounts of hull, shield and antimatter, and more strike craft. In addition, what would be more reasonable than keeping 100% xp and levels would be level 2/3/4 titan technologies to keep 10/20/30% of the highest xp total achieved on previous titans - chalk that up to "lessons learned". Advent could either have these technologies at level 1/2/3, or instead receive 15/30/45% of previous xp. Edit 2: This really should have been a focal point of the post, in retrospect - I cannot stress enough how game-breaking it is that titans retain 100% of their experience (in addition to it being logic-defying outside of the Advent).

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April 8, 2012 11:44:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If something has to be done about the titans, then I like the experience penalty idea.  Getting resurrected at a Titan foundry should cost 15-20% of the experience points.

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April 8, 2012 1:57:48 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I play mostly SP but have been dabling more in Multi as things have progressed. Seeing both sides of the coin I believe that titans should not retain their levels as it makes no damn sense. Capitals don't retain them, with some exceptions, so by extension neither should Titans. One could argue that they kept the engineering records and can rebuild them better but that would go for all ships in the game. The way to keep balance is to, as others have suggested, neuter the titans level or have them slowly gain their levels back in the way that Mass Transendence works and just like MT have a level cap. This preserves the overall gameplay and also prevents those who lost titans early for getting railroaded by people who didn't.  Your thoughts.

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April 8, 2012 3:39:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There needs to be some mechanism of diminishing returns.

 

Successive Titans should be more costly.

 

If you retain the XP gained, that's fine. But without disincentives you will throw them into unwinnable battles just to grind levels off of overwhelming enemies.

 

Titans need to either increase in cost each successive purchase (a fair trade-off). Or lose XP per 'resurrection'.

 

Persistent XP is fine as long as there is some negativity somewhere else.

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April 8, 2012 4:14:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Rock and a hard place.

Titans upon death must be a significant loss to prevent titan spam, while at the same time must be brought back as powerful in order to combat opposing titans to prevent games being automatically lost due a weaker titan not being able to stop the inexorable advance of a high level titan . 

In this thread there have been several excellent ideas to help deal with titans keeping their exp after death, which I think are much better work arounds rather than removing exp after death entirely, because this will just cause steam roller victories in single player and multiplayer games against both humans and AI using titans and really isn't a good solution to the problem.

So here are some of the ideas that I think are good and will work, I'll try to point any issues with them and give points why they'll work. (Sorry if i've missed yours out there are alot ^^ ) 

tysothepirate suggested that when a titan is destroy and after it has been rebuilt. It retains both its level and  exp however, in the same way starbases are upgrade there is a grace period while the titans abilities come online this forces players who have lost their titan to keep it out of the fight so as to not risk losing it again while at the same time allowing the opposing player to be rewarded for killing the titan by being able to wreak house while the other titan is reactivating. In this solution the reactivating titans player still has the option to put their titan into the fight but while their waiting they can build up there fleet again to fight back against the opposing fleet . I think this solution that deals with the problem without having to alter the game very much.

The_Scarab 

"Kick the XP persistence to the military research tab. Make it off by default, but researchable. Create some kind of new research called, I don't know, 'Persistent Doctrine'. Have it cost a lot of resources, be tier 8, and have three ranks. 30%, 60% and 100%."

This is a good idea but if a player has invest the time and money into the tree there's nothing to prevent titan spam.

and

"I think when a Titan dies it should leave behind a carcass. A wrecked version of the ship model floating in space."

This would be awesome I'd love to perform salvage operations for my destroyed titan however, there are a couple of difficulties cause by this the first obvious one is that I'm not sure there's to for it to be built into the engine before the release date and in multiplayer there is nothing to prevent your opponent from camping the titan corpse.

Cheers

 

 

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April 8, 2012 5:20:59 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh I know there are issues. I just thought it would be a cool thing to have this floating derelict marking the site of a major battle.

Even in their current implementation, Titans are a huge victory if you bring one down. It's really a pivotal moment. It would be thematically interesting to have a marker of such an event, even if from a gameplay standing it has no utility.

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April 8, 2012 5:27:21 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting DirtySanchezz,

Quoting bilun, reply 8That said there really should be a titans disabled game mode. And while they're at it, upon the game's release & the implementation of any ELO system/matchmaker I think there should be a seperate Queue & ELO for titans enabled/disabled.

I'd like to see separate options for both "No Titans" and "No Corvettes" as optional game settings so that people can play it "Diplomacy-style" if they want. The marketplace will then decide.

Yep,  I totally agree with you Dirty.

Quoting sareth01,
In essence, the victor of the stalemate situation is the person who gets the most feed, so the game becomes disproportionately ECONOMY based, moreso then it ever has been. I say that eco spots need a longer buildup time, as they are becoming the main reason victories are occurring.



Sareth, sorry for throwing you in front of the bus here, but I have to ask... I hear a lot of talk about online MP (which I never really got into), eco and suicide spots, and think I understand the terminology fine. But it seems to be implied that, all else being equal, a player didn't need to have the most/best worlds or strongest economy to win, which confuses me a little. In my limited experience, it's always been the strongest economy wins. Was this ever not the case? As said, lets set aside experience/difficulty levels and tactical blunders for the sake of the conversation.

I want to point out that I'm being sincere here. I really am getting the feeling I'm missing something important.

Hmm i am not responding from underneath a bus, no worries .

A strong economy always has been the best path to victory, you are completely right.  What I am talking about is the strength of the "attrition advantage", picking away at an enemy's fleet more so then they pick at yours to keep them weaker.  This has always been the "reverse" economy of the military tree.  The point is that this attrition advantage has almost completely disappeared because of corvettes.  Rushes, now are a lot riskier, and are even more easily countered with an even smaller amount of feed.  This means that the overall the game favors economic play even more. 

If you are in a military spot and your opponent gets a luckier set of planets/neutrals nearby, then you will be at a disadvantage right off the bat because they will be able to spam more corvettes then you.  Corvettes currently are OP....just spam them and watch them ice the enemy fleet, capital ships, titans..it makes no difference.  if flak is coming for them you retreat them out of the fire zone and then hit your opponents other planets.  The military tree needs more game changers in the tech trees so that the economy based players can't just spam corvettes as well for defense.

 

 

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