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The dangers of entitled gamers

Very interesting article

By on February 22, 2012 7:42:05 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums External Link

Frogboy

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Read a really good article at Gamespot today about the dangers of gamer entitlement.

http://au.gamespot.com/features/the-dangers-of-gamer-entitlement-6350732/

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February 22, 2012 7:53:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Can you sum it up for me?

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February 22, 2012 8:06:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


From the article (this paragraph ruined the article for me):

The savagery displayed this week flows not from specifics but from the sense of ownership that makes some gamers believe that they own the games they play. That's a common mistake; gamers buy games, so naturally they feel entitled to them. But games are, and have always been, the property of the people who made them. People like Jennifer Hepler.

- -End of quote--

 

 

I think that there is NO EXCUSE for abusing and name-calling in the web or anywhere else. Still, the article misses the mark with the statement above. When you buy a boardgame you can do what you will with it. It used to be like this with computer games as well. Now, we are moving into a realm where publishers can turn of a server and your games are never to be useable again.

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February 22, 2012 8:22:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't understand how game developers can't hate us.  Vicious, amoral retards.  So entitled, and so ignorant of laws.  And game developers/publishers do own the intellectual property of their games.  How they choose to make them, is their choice, not ours.  You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

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February 22, 2012 8:46:51 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting joasoze,
When you buy a boardgame you can do what you will with it.

When you buy a board game, you're buying some parts and a mutable set of rules for using them to have fun. You can change the rules, throw them out entirely, wear the board as a hat, etc.

With a typical retail video game, everything is effectively one inseparable unit; the "parts" can't be taken out and used for other purposes (be it for technical or copyright reasons), and the "rules" are hard-coded and administered by a machine. They're not really all that comparable; the actual electronic equivalent to a board game would be FOSS games.

 

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February 22, 2012 8:53:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,
I don't understand how game developers can't hate us.  Vicious, amoral retards.  So entitled, and so ignorant of laws.  And game developers/publishers do own the intellectual property of their games.  How they choose to make them, is their choice, not ours.  You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

I am sure they are at least frustrated with us a lot but I don't think they actually hate us. I mean we provide them with paychecks

Anyways they do hold the intellectual property and thus they can do w/e the hell they wish doesn't mean we will like it. And their aim is to sell the games so they can continue development so they have to conform to us eventually. It becomes an issue when people start making ridiculous and a lot of times too numerous of requests. 

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February 22, 2012 8:54:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,
I don't understand how game developers can't hate us.  Vicious, amoral retards.  So entitled, and so ignorant of laws.  And game developers/publishers do own the intellectual property of their games.  How they choose to make them, is their choice, not ours.  You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

 

But when they do that and they look around like "Uh... Why is everyone pirating our games?" they can only blame themselves. If we are treated as if we are going to rob them penniless then we will, it is just human nature. 

 

Vicious, amoral retards is a silly statement - like when they used to print cocaine crazed negro in newspaper headlines - it is sensationalist at best. We own the rights to play the game, and they own the rights to the intellectual property and if they take away our rights to play the game as they see fit then it is going to cause negativism among gamers. The article is sensationalist, as with the aforementioned statement, because this stuff happens all of the time on the internet. It only is garnering attention because it was a female talking about female gamers. Why would BioWare pursue legal action on what is most likely some kids in their moms house? The article was just stirring the pot of controversy for controversy sake.

 

(Edited for point clarity)

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February 22, 2012 8:56:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If only Bioware was private, then they could ban the folks responsible for this garbage.    There is way too much misogyny is gaming.  Any amount is too much obviously, but it's crazy how woman-hating many gamers are.

 

This is something Stardock has done in the past on at least one occasion. (which was for being abusive to support)

 

I do think the concept of licensing is too one-sided in favor of developers.  If you buy a game, you shouldn't have that access taken away, UNLESS your actions hurt future sales of that game (like you distribute it out for piracy), or you are offered a full refund (which is what Stardock did in that case)

 

 

 

 

 

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February 22, 2012 9:24:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Emperor_Nero,
But when they do that and they look around like "Uh... Why is everyone pirating our games?" they can only blame themselves. If we are treated as if we are going to rob them penniless then we will, it is just human nature. 

I love it when pirates try to justify their pirating.

Quoting Lord Xia,
 You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

The cell phone industry is very similar. That phone you purchased may easily become a brick if you violate their TOS. This would potentially render all of the software purchased for that device useless as well. 

 

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February 22, 2012 9:34:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Emperor_Nero,

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 3I don't understand how game developers can't hate us.  Vicious, amoral retards.  So entitled, and so ignorant of laws.  And game developers/publishers do own the intellectual property of their games.  How they choose to make them, is their choice, not ours.  You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

 

But when they do that and they look around like "Uh... Why is everyone pirating our games?" they can only blame themselves. If we are treated as if we are going to rob them penniless then we will, it is just human nature. 

 
(Edited for point clarity)

This is a piss poor understanding of human nature, trust me I have degrees in this.  People pirate games because they want them and don't want to pay, have very little fear of being caught, and have made some justification in their mind.  If it's not, "they're a bad company", it's "They charge too much" or "I couldn't afford it, and I'm entitled to whatever I want".  Pirates are just bullshit scum thieves that try to rationalize their amoral behavior like they are fucking Robinhood.  Don't get on a soapbox about thieves.  No one has the right for any reason to steal video games.  

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February 22, 2012 9:41:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
I do think the concept of licensing is too one-sided in favor of developers.  If you buy a game, you shouldn't have that access taken away, UNLESS your actions hurt future sales of that game (like you distribute it out for piracy)

A handful of foul-mouthed neanderthals proclaiming the doom of the franchise, the company, and earth as a whole, could be construed as "hurting the future sales of that game".

Besides, monkeypoo-flinging is never good press.

I'm all for an internet were such behaviour can have consequences. Freedom of speech ≠ freedom to harrass.

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February 22, 2012 9:56:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
it's crazy how woman-hating many gamers are.

Can you think of non-sexualized female game character? It's hard, isn't it? There are some exceptions of course, like Alyx Vance, but they are minority. So games sexualize women. Gamers are educated by those games.

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February 22, 2012 9:56:09 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Emperor_Nero,
We own the rights to play the game, and they own the rights to the intellectual property and if they take away our rights to play the game as they see fit


Users don't own the right to play the game. The rightsholder licenses the right to play the game to users. This license is subject to certain conditions determined by the rightsholder.

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February 22, 2012 10:23:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think this thread is good evidence as to how easily people can fall in to hyperbolic name-calling on the internet. There is no visible evidence of the effect of our words on the people reading them, so there is a tendency to increase the intensity of the rhetoric to make a point one feels passionate about. For instance, you can't have a civilized conversation throwing around phrases like "vicious, amoral retards" to refer to apparently all gamers or "bullshit scum thieves" to refer to people who have pirated intellectual property.

I agree with Gazz about it would be nice in abusive situations to have consequences for internet speech. I think it is a difficult situation because people are more liable to get loose with internet speech than they are with person to person speech. 

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February 22, 2012 10:23:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Gazz_,

Quoting Alstein, reply 7I do think the concept of licensing is too one-sided in favor of developers.  If you buy a game, you shouldn't have that access taken away, UNLESS your actions hurt future sales of that game (like you distribute it out for piracy)

A handful of foul-mouthed neanderthals proclaiming the doom of the franchise, the company, and earth as a whole, could be construed as "hurting the future sales of that game".

Besides, monkeypoo-flinging is never good press.

I'm all for an internet were such behaviour can have consequences. Freedom of speech ≠ freedom to harrass.

 

Monkeypoo flinging isn't sufficient obviously.  I'm referring to stuff like piracy, physical threats to support staff, things along those lines.

 

 

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February 22, 2012 10:59:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is why I said I don't understand why game developers don't hate US.  I knowingly throw myself in that category, I rant and rave and cuss up a storm like a mad man.  Others are entitled brats and others are thieves.  Many gamers do hate women, or at least are very confused by them and feel rejected by them.  There is a good reason most devs spend very little time talking to us, we are assholes.

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February 22, 2012 11:08:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ZombiesRus5,

Quoting Emperor_Nero, reply 6But when they do that and they look around like "Uh... Why is everyone pirating our games?" they can only blame themselves. If we are treated as if we are going to rob them penniless then we will, it is just human nature. 

I love it when pirates try to justify their pirating.


Quoting Lord Xia, reply 3 You can choose to purchase the right to play it, that's the start and end of your rights as a gamer.

The cell phone industry is very similar. That phone you purchased may easily become a brick if you violate their TOS. This would potentially render all of the software purchased for that device useless as well. 

 
Not really a good comparison. If you wanted to do it right you would compare the cellphone to a computer and all the communication and data exchange to software you got on the computer. And if a data provider f*cks you up you jailbreak the phone and put another provider card in it and continue you life. Options like these make sure the provider will think twice before trying same shit again.

Same works with software. I approve of options for users to do something if they don't agree with what is offered. If the software companies don't fear their users things will only get worse for those users over time. Just like Lord Xia says, people rationalize theft, but theft works both ways.

Some company manager wants to get a bonus and will rationalize f*cking customers over. In my country games are more expensive then in USA and our life standard is 2-3x less then US. So why is that fair? Do USA companies really think this is fair and not highway robbery?

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February 22, 2012 11:22:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Its a video game.  They have the right to charge whatever they want for it.  It's not robbery.  you have the choice of not buying it.  You don't have the right to their games for any reason.  Sorry you live in a poorer nation, but making video games isn't charity work.  It isn't a resource of life or death.  

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February 22, 2012 11:29:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,

 In my country games are more expensive then in USA and our life standard is 2-3x less then US. So why is that fair? Do USA companies really think this is fair and not highway robbery?

This is a good reason why software piracy is a complicated issue. It is very difficult to make the case that people should forego culture (movies, music, books, games) because they are too poor to afford it. They can be threatened with a stick, but I don't see any moral high ground. I love people more than bytes.

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February 22, 2012 11:51:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,
Its a video game.  They have the right to charge whatever they want for it.  It's not robbery.  you have the choice of not buying it.  You don't have the right to their games for any reason.  Sorry you live in a poorer nation, but making video games isn't charity work.  It isn't a resource of life or death.  

Yes, I am sure it is not. But nothing is that simple. I could go into very long and detailed post about why USA has such a high standard where people working in IT industry can easily afford a new game each month, while I over here in the same business can afford one or two each year. The post would finish with a lot of politics and wars and deaths and blood money and all that. But I will not.

I will only say that They need to accommodate their prices to the buying power of markets they are selling in or they will get less sales and more people "stealing" it. For instance Blizzard has done so for China market with Starcraft 2.

Most people I know buy games only on Steam sales. Everyone else pirates them. I buy games when I can afford one, and download when I cannot. I will only live once, and I will not be a victim of my surroundings. I was born in this country to parents that were not rich, I wasn't given 200IQ or an ability to create great music or art and I don't look like a movie star or a model. At the same time I am ruled over people that care for themselves first and then their countrymen and elections every 4 years don't change shit (and they are not meant to as modern democracy is just the newest trick of the rich and powerful to make people feel like they are in control; and don't say USA got it differently as the only truth is USA mastered the illusion more then most countries).

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February 22, 2012 11:55:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have to agree with some of the commenters on the original article. This has very little to do with gamer entitlement and more to do with the internet being populated by immature trolls. She is hardly the first game developer to be harassed online. The article simply highlights the fact that due to the mythical anonymous status of the internet people tend to be incredibly base and discriminatory. It just so happened that their target this time was female and thus the usual immature rage rants were discriminatory instead of simply absurd. 

Oh ya and I guess I have a sense of entitlement because I hate buying steam games, and would rather play small third party games then large steam based ones because I hate "leasing" games. Steam can do what it wants but then so can I, and I will just not buy games from them if I don't want to.

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February 22, 2012 12:02:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Burress,

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 16
 In my country games are more expensive then in USA and our life standard is 2-3x less then US. So why is that fair? Do USA companies really think this is fair and not highway robbery?

This is a good reason why software piracy is a complicated issue. It is very difficult to make the case that people should forego culture (movies, music, books, games) because they are too poor to afford it. They can be threatened with a stick, but I don't see any moral high ground. I love people more than bytes.

This isn't at all a reason why piracy is complicated.  It isn't complicated.  Piracy is wrong.  If you can't afford the game, you have absolutely no right to steal it.  You're a thief if you do.  Simple.  (Generic "you", not you specifically).

It also isn't a difficult case to make.  If you can't afford it, you have no right to it.  It's not an essential need.  If you steal it, you're saying you're enjoyment is more important than the creators' livelihood.  That the people who produce it should do so for free because your desire to enjoy something trumps their right to earn value for their work.  

You have no right to any luxury item, including video games.  

Quoting TorinReborn,

Most people I know buy games only on Steam sales. Everyone else pirates them. I buy games when I can afford one, and download when I cannot. I will only live once, and I will not be a victim of my surroundings. I was born in this country to parents that were not rich, I wasn't given 200IQ or an ability to create great music or art and I don't look like a movie star or a model. At the same time I am ruled over people that care for themselves first and then their countrymen and elections every 4 years don't change shit (and they are not meant to as modern democracy is just the newest trick of the rich and powerful to make people feel like they are in control; and don't say USA got it differently as the only truth is USA mastered the illusion more then most countries).

You are a thief.  No matter how many caveats you throw in to rationalize it, you steal the work of others.  

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February 22, 2012 12:35:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why rationalize being a thief? If your life is really that hard, enjoy it as much as you can. Take what you can and give nothing back. Own being a thief. But don't tell me because you are in a different class, you have different rights or entitlements. It really is that simple. 

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February 22, 2012 12:55:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What is a thief? Someone that break the law? Is the law same in all countries? Is taking something from others making everyone a thief by law in all cases? Did bankers get prosecuted for being thieves and causing the crisis all around the world?

Did G.W. Bush get prosecuted for much worse stuff?

I explained my reasoning and all of you may call it what you want. But the hard reality is many people are pirating stuff because they cannot afford it. You can call them thieves but it will keep happening. If a sweatshirt was priced half your paycheck (I am not saying a game is half my paycheck) would you still call people stealing it thieves with same conviction? What if same sweatshirt was in another country 1/50 of paycheck?

 

Books can be borrowed from libraries for very cheep and read. I am sure someone could make a case for closing all libraries and only selling books and forbidding anyone to copy them unless they are licensed and call those that do thieves even if they only do it for self use.

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February 22, 2012 12:56:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I completely agree with DsRaider. This is hardly an issue of entitlement, and more of a bandwagon issue. Some troll started that, and on went all the others, thinking that it was the right thing to do. Normally you just dismiss trolls like that, since it's obvious that they have no idea what they are talking about. Of course, I'm not saying that trolling attempts should be taken lightly - the trolls do need to be warned, and, if it persists, even banned (if possible on a particular website). But taking legal action against them is just ludicrous.

As for entitlements, yes, I believe in the Gamers' Bill of Rights. I don't like relying on the goodwill of a third party in order to access games that I have purchased. Especially those with shady service agreements, like Steam (or even the current Impulse). And I certainly don't like being mistreated for something I did not commit. That's why I will never buy any games on Steam, or Origin, or anything else like that, if it depends on a third-party DRM tool to run. I am perfectly fine with GOG.com and similar, though - there you don't feel dependent on anything, nor do you feel like your system is being taxed even while you're not playing the game.

Oh, and the idea of skipping the fighting is awesome. In games, I enjoy the story and atmosphere the most, and gameplay (and graphics) is just a bonus. So a way to skip fights would interest me a lot, indeed. It would be like an interactive film. And actually, I think they have something of the sort planned for Mass Effect 3 with the "Story mode". It's too bad that I'll have to wait for it to be released outside Origin before I can purchase it, though (and I'm fairly certain it will be released outside of it, eventually).

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February 22, 2012 1:06:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TorinReborn,
What is a thief? Someone that break the law? Is the law same in all countries? Is taking something from others making everyone a thief by law in all cases? Did bankers get prosecuted for being thieves and causing the crisis all around the world?

Did G.W. Bush get prosecuted for much worse stuff?

I explained my reasoning and all of you may call it what you want. But the hard reality is many people are pirating stuff because they cannot afford it. You can call them thieves but it will keep happening. If a sweatshirt was priced half your paycheck (I am not saying a game is half my paycheck) would you still call people stealing it thieves with same conviction? What if same sweatshirt was in another country 1/50 of paycheck?

 

Books can be borrowed from libraries for very cheep and read. I am sure someone could make a case for closing all libraries and only selling books and forbidding anyone to copy them unless they are licensed and call those that do thieves even if they only do it for self use.

 

This changes nothing. These arguments are poor, misleading, and strays from the point.  This is all an attempt to justify theft.  Pirating video games is theft.  There is no debate about that.  The justifications you use are just that, justifications for you to do amoral things to get what you want.  These are not things you need.  There might be a different conversation about things you need to survive.  But not video games.  We are all debt a hand in life, and we must make due.  There is no hand that life dealt anyone that makes pirating video games okay.  Sorry.  No justification for this behavior.  No grey area.  

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