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Starbases and Rebellion

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By on March 28, 2011 10:17:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

1Tiberius1

Join Date 03/2008
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So it was mentioned that capital ships would have more ability levels available to allow for customization of ships.  But that could either mean that the first three ability levels might extend past 3 and to 4 or 5, with the max capital ship level still being 10.  Or, it might mean that capital ships might extend past level 10, maybe to 12 and on up to 15.  Along with the presence of Titans, it made me wonder about what sort of love starbases might receive. 

 

Might starbases allow for more than 8 upgrades in Rebellion, in response to Titans and stronger capital ships(egads for more Bombers from the Halcyon and Skirantra!)?  Perhaps at the very least a tier 7 or tier 8 research tech that allows for additional upgrades?  E.g. 10 upgrades, maybe 12 upgrades?  Might starbases get new abilities and techs outright?  Especially some sort of Loyalist and Rebel influence?  Something that might give them a spiffy new cosmetic alteration that lets everyone know who that territory belongs to?  I mean, should pirates have all the fun with their skull designs and burning torches(however those work in space)? 

 

For example... maybe the Argonev can research Tactical Coordination to increase the range for all friendly units in the gravity well.  Maybe the Transcencia can research Telekinetic Pull and draw in units only to bombard them with meteors, or to lock them down in place with Mass Disorientation.  Maybe the Vulkoras could research Wide-Range Distortion Field, slowing down all hostiles in range and perhaps even slowing their phase jump charge up rate. 

 

Eh?  Eh? 

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March 28, 2011 10:58:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think there should be bigger stations at all, means that you can upgrade a little starbase with modules to a very large batlle fortress. Or maybe a special home starbase for every faction. Just some suggestions. I like the the ideas above.

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March 29, 2011 6:16:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The devs have mentioned in some video a long time ago, when entrenchment was in the works, that they don't like what they did to capital ships. Namely, they don't like the fact that at level 10 you can have all the abilities, so once your cap hits level 10, it doesn't matter what you've chosen, it will have it all anyway. That was the reason why Starbases don't have enough upgrade slots to get all upgrades, they require careful customization, depending on where they are and what you want them for.

Along this line I do not expect starbases to get much love, for the capital ship's extra ability levels are there just to fix the abovementioned issue. The extra ability levels are there to force a choice upon the player about which abilities to take. It's just that, to prevent you from having every level 10 cap being identical, to force you to think what you want that ship to be rolling about with. Starbases already fulfill this requirement so there is no need to fix them from this perspective.

So, to reiterate - I think devs consider the extra ability levels more as a FIX for capital ships, not a buff, therefore I would not expect buffs to starbases.

Sure it will be fun to roll around with a Kortul having his PS at level 5, regenerating 80 shield points per second all day every day (wild guess) - but that means he will lack either in the Jam Weapons or DS department. Yeah, he's pretty much going to be invulnerable to anything but a bomber swarm, but his already limited usefulness has simultaneously diminished by a big chunk.

As for the Titans, I think they're just going to be 50-ships-in-one. You pay the cost of 50 ships and get 50 ships wrapped in a nice looking big tortilla. That's all.
Oh and I can wager that the Vasari Titan is going to have pulse beams used heavily. That's the only explanation I have (except incompetence) for tweaking Pinpoint Bombardment to sensible levels while leaving the completely useless Pulse Beam upgrade line unchanged in the last patch.

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March 29, 2011 11:00:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

But in the case of capital ships where some abilities are pathetic compared to others, you aren't going to see as much customization as they hope with specific capital ships.  In the case you gave of the Devastator, 1 point in Volatile Nanites and Disruptive Strikes will be placed along with 3-5 levels each in Power Surge and Jam Weapons.  Or take the Marza Dreadnought, hello 3 extra levels for for Raze Planet or Radiation Bomb(since Incendiary Shells sucks).  Or that ship that no one uses, the Marauder for the Vasari, Subversion is too weak to be of any real use.  It might be whipped out once in a great while for 5 levels of Distort Gravity, if that grants something crazy like +200% top speed.  I've always felt Subversion should should launch at the range of an Arcova's Sensor Probe and have a long duration (10/20/30 minutes).  Combined with the phase stabilization technology, you could make lightning blitzes against the production capacity of another player, punish them for putting all their eggs in one basket. 

 

But a specific consideration for starbases is that they're going to need offense and defense upgrades to stand up to a titan at all(excepting the Advent where Meteor Control trumps offense).  As it stands now, some starbase upgrades are weak as well.  The strikecraft buffs for example.  They're inefficient compared to hangars, which are already hugely inefficient beyond any abilities they provide through the defense tree.  Admittedly adding 1 more squadron per level would probably make them far more attractive in combat-heavy areas.  Most people just get defense buffs as needed, unless they're playing the Vasari, where offense matters more(along with a phase jump inhibitor or two to prevent quick escape). Most starbases have closer to 16 choices anyway.  So upping the count to 10, or even 12, would still allow some customization.  This is especially true if the Loyalist/Rebel trees contain new stuff for the bases. 

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March 30, 2011 12:21:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There's a pretty significant use to marauders actually, the stabilize phase space ability lets you move reinforcements way more quickly. You can send it to a distant location and send ships through the phase stabilizer structure to get them there quickly.

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March 30, 2011 4:46:06 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Elisk2,
There's a pretty significant use to marauders actually, the stabilize phase space ability lets you move reinforcements way more quickly. You can send it to a distant location and send ships through the phase stabilizer structure to get them there quickly.

 

If I'm playing a big team game and the phase stabilizers go up along with some Kosturas, I'll usually deploy a Marauder then.  It makes calling Returning Armada reinforcements so much faster(usually fueled by Wreckage Auto-Salvage).  Plus, when you have those huge fleets the +75% turning rate helps them line up for phase jumps way faster.  Usually by then the opponent will want to go for the Devastator or the Skirantras instead.  Despite me putting down Overseers a bit recently, they begin to shine at those late moments, when juicier targets draw enemy attention.  Phase Out Hull add another layer of emergency healing on top of that found on the Skirantra and Overseer, and Reintegration.

 

Team games do have a very different dynamic compared to smaller games.  I won't deny that.  [e digicons]'[/e]

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March 30, 2011 9:30:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting 1Tiberius1,
But in the case of capital ships where some abilities are pathetic compared to others, you aren't going to see as much customization as they hope with specific capital ships.

(...) 

But a specific consideration for starbases is that they're going to need offense and defense upgrades to stand up to a titan at all(excepting the Advent where Meteor Control trumps offense).  As it stands now, some starbase upgrades are weak as well.  (...)

What you are mentioning is all about balance. The customization factor is there for starbases and will be there for caps, that's all there is to it I think. It is a whole different story that some caps will only see one build being used due to some abilities being sub-par to others. That is the job of balancing to even up, so that there really is an unobvious choice to make. When you cut a finger you don't attach yourself another one, you get it healed.

I also don't think starbases need a buff to be able to stand against titans. The titans are meant to be the new, the awesome, the ooomph thing on the battlefield. If starbases are buffed to handle them, what the hell is their purpose? The starbases are MEANT to have a problem with a titan class ship.

That's how I see it anyway.

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March 30, 2011 9:38:09 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just because one player finds something "useless" for their playstyle, doesn't mean others do. Keep that in mind when you throw around comments that something is useless/nobody uses it.

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March 30, 2011 1:59:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh, then

Quoting Annatar11,
Just because one player finds something "useless" for their playstyle, doesn't mean others do. Keep that in mind when you throw around comments that something is useless/nobody uses it.

 

Then by all means show me an honest useful incorporation for something like Incendiary Shells.  Show me where Subversion makes a notable difference in a game.  By all means.  I'd love to see that.  Even the case for Disruptive Strikes is mitigated when you realize Power Surge's faster weapon firing amplifies the point in Disruptive Strikes while vastly increasing the survivability of the Devastator between casting of Jam Weapons, when it is susceptible to bomber strikes. 

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March 30, 2011 2:30:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Incendiary shells doesn't use antimatter, thus you can use the other abilities more often.

Subversion: Very short range rush to slow their production, then out-spam them.

 

At least, that's what people told me over and over when I ran a balance mod.

 

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March 30, 2011 2:36:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Then by all means show me an honest useful incorporation for something like Incendiary Shells.  

6 damage per second per stack, so 18 damage per second with 3 stacks (as of 1.2), for 15 seconds gives 270 damage unmitigated by shields to each of the Marza's 3 targets (one for each bank)..

Even at level 1, this ability adds 9 sustained DPS per target, which is a pretty considerable boost to a level 1 Marza. It is certainly not a bad investment of a skill point.

Even the case for Disruptive Strikes is mitigated when you realize Power Surge's faster weapon firing amplifies the point in Disruptive Strikes while vastly increasing the survivability of the Devastator between casting of Jam Weapons, when it is susceptible to bomber strikes.

Jam Weapons is great. But you can only disable the weapons once. The ability becomes useless on any additional Kortuls. So if you have more than one, you get Jam+Power Surge on one, Disruptive Strikes+Power Surge on all the others.

 

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April 11, 2011 11:00:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

well, kortuls dont have enoug hantimatter to continuously cast jam weapons.  Even then, a single kortul cant keep it continuously up, so 2 kortuls staggering jam weapons can be worthwhile.

powersuge also drains AM from jam weapons, so if it was late game, and I was building kortuls to make my fleet immune to strike craft, i would not put powersurge on them, and instead have disruptive stikes for AM draining. 

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May 4, 2011 10:31:47 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

on a random note:

i like how they transition the weapons and tec for each race to be realistic

i.e

you build super awsome defences....i build ultamite pownige titan ship

 

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May 4, 2011 10:52:11 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Even at level 1, this ability adds 9 sustained DPS per target, which is a pretty considerable boost to a level 1 Marza. It is certainly not a bad investment of a skill point.

The problem is it doesn't scale particularly well, and the Marza isn't a 1st capital ship choice to begin with.  By the time the Marza comes out, this ability is already obsolete.  To top it off, you can't use both your anti-frigate and bombardment weapons simultaneously, so it's not like you need to juggle your antimatter to use both raze planet and radiation bomb.  This all comes together to make incendiary shells quite redundant.


Jam Weapons is great. But you can only disable the weapons once. The ability becomes useless on any additional Kortuls. So if you have more than one, you get Jam+Power Surge on one, Disruptive Strikes+Power Surge on all the others.

Having multiple Kortuls with jam weapons can help deal with blind spots and gives you some redundancy if one gets taken out.  Against strike craft spammers, this can actually be a very good idea and well worth the expenditure of a skill point.

Kortul is one of the few capital ships where a 3-skill build is totally viable.


well, kortuls dont have enoug hantimatter to continuously cast jam weapons

Not indefinitely, but if you're going into battle with full antimatter reserves they can keep up both abilities for about two minutes.  That should be more than sufficient for most purposes.  The Kortul is actually a very antimatter efficient selection.

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