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Shogun 2 is Freaking Awesome!!!!!

Hell Yeah!!!!!!!

By on March 15, 2011 8:22:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

RavenX

Join Date 10/2008
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For the last 4 or 5 hours I've been laying here in bed playing Shogun 2. Holy sh!t this game is Awesome!!! I just can't say that enough. I'm on normal difficulty and from a campaign perspective, I'm just holding my own. I started my campaign as the Shimazu Clan. So far I've managed to take 3 cities while holding off the combined alliance attacks of two of my enemies. That's right, Combined Attacks. Allies actually help each other do battle on a regular occasion. They plan and coordinate strikes. The diplomatic AI is great in Shogun 2, which to my knowledge is a true first for the series at launch. I just had a pitched battle against one of my enemies and won verses 2 to 1 odds, but took heavy casualties. At the end of that battle, that particular enemy sued for peace, which I took.

The battle AI is much improved as well. I can't really use Empire:TW as an example as the mechanics are different, so I'll use Med2. The battle AI attacks head on without delay when on the offensive, defends smartly when on the defensive, and knows when to pull back and regroup. The only small complaint I've found in the battle AI is from time to time the AI knows when I tell my cavalry to attack a bow unit and the bow unit starts running before my cavalry even gets there. It's like it detects the attack "click". When I tell my cavalry to move to behind the enemy bow units instead of clicking on them to attack I get the surprise attack I wanted to begin with.

I imagine under heavy scrutiny there might be a few other small quarks, but, over-all I'd have to say both the strategic and battle AI in Shogun 2 are Much Improved over the other games in the series. To call Shogun 2 anything other than a "Masterpiece of Strategy Gaming" would be a flat out lie. The full game is Way Improved over the demo. The demo was good and I'd say 85% accurate of the final product, but, there have been improvements since the demo to the full release. The graphics, simply put, are Amazing. They bring a feeling and atmosphere to the game that almost makes you feel like you're really in feudal Japan. The sound track for the game, with it's heavy use of Japanese drumming is killer as well. The battles feel truly Epic, they really do, and I haven't even gotten to the point where I fight with the maximum allowed number of units yet.

Other companies need to sit up and take notice. Shogun 2 is everything a grand strategic war-game needs to be, plain and simple. The campaign map is vibrant and feels alive. The strategic AI is a genuine challenge, and the battle AI, while of course not as good as a fellow human, is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the TW series at launch.

After I've spent some real time in the campaign I'll post a proper review or an A.A.R. or something for those wanting one. So far though, the game is as close to war-gaming perfection as I've ever seen at launch. If you liked any of the other TW games, Don't Miss Shogun 2, period.

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March 20, 2011 11:12:29 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting RavenX,
Quoting the_Monk, reply 48
My second post did indicate that I thought there were other bugs (non graphics related) still present some of which do go to gameplay.


Which is very true. There still is the occasional glitch in the battle AI. Luckily I've only seen them act up once on me, but once was enough. The whole enemy army stood around and did a little jig for a good 20 seconds or so at the bottom of a hill, getting rained on by arrows. They could have just kept coming, or even turned back, but nope. They wanted to stand around and dance and catch arrows...LoL.

It really does boggle the mind where stuff like that comes from when, on my machine at least, the AI performs damn well 99% of the time. I understand it's a rudimentary AI compared to the "real thing", which means there's sure to be tons and tons of variables in the scripting so that means plenty can go wrong. Still, I just don't see how a program can work good that often, but then out of the blue have such a blatant screw up. Then again I never claimed to understand the finer points of coding...heh.

I also can't wait until it Does support AA and DX11 like it should. It looks amazing now, more improvements are honestly pretty hard to imagine so I'm sure it will look jaw dropping to me then.

Your arguments are very valid, Monk.

AI programming is very complex - at least its better than in their past games - and much much much better than HoI3 AI which attacked my 6 battleships with 20 transports (loaded with troops) and 2 destroyers .

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March 21, 2011 1:45:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Dude I must say I am enjoy Shogun 2 a lot. Campaign is going good. Online I have 2 wins and 1 lose but it was very costly for my enemy and a drop in battle that I only had 1 Calvary unit lol, which was great because I got plowed in that.

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March 21, 2011 3:47:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums


Thanks a lot CREATIVE ASSEMBLY....really? I used to sing their prasises. I've been a TOTAL WAR fan since the very first one. Unfortunately I've seen the series tank and turn to hollywood garbage.

Thanks for the latest FAILURE Creative Assembly........I will be a sucker no longer. This is the last TW game I will ever buy. No DX 10 or 11 support with AA until a few weeks from now it might be patched in?!?

LAME!

Sounds a lot like hate to me.

Overall community response has been very positive, most threads that contain major complaints I find it incomprehensible that a game with authentic music and art, battle speeches in their native language and clan bonuses with historical precedent and no fantasy units is dismissed as 'hollywood garbage' while the previous games which had things like armies of wardogs, Parthians in pajamas, lots of flaming pigs, wailing women, Roman Ninjas, sword hoplites (in mods), superhuman spartans (vanilla and mods) and sherwood archers, Budapest existing in medieval times, Hungarian Battlefield Assassins etc. have praises sung about them.

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March 21, 2011 4:44:13 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

 

Since you're either being obtuse or just want to see me type it out again and again, I'll keep my response as short/concise as possible:

1.  An unfinished game is garbage (especially when complete features are missing at launch)

2.  Great......we have speeches, authentic music and art (hence the "hollywoood" comment) but we can't make the game connect people who want to play together without crashing or freezing or bugging out in other ways (ie. not showing the same info on every players screen etc.)  Fantastic ideals for a deeper MP experience however some of the MP BASICS are presently horribly broken!  Over the last few days I've spent more time (with serveral friends) trying to play the game than actual doing so!

That equals a frustratiing experience especially when CA has had so long (a rather lengthy franchise) to build on and "get things right".  While I agree that CA is attempting many cool and interesting things with SHOGUN 2.........does it really come as a surprise one might be a tad upset at the realization that one paid 50 bucks for a nearly complete beta?  There is no way that SHOGUN 2 should have been released now......maybe 2-3 months from now when the graphics options included with the game actually do work and the cool MP is actually working (and by that I mean working WELL at least 90% of the time) and doesn't just feel like a "proof of concept".

thanks for reading,

the Monk

EDIT:  Oh and the AI is still often shit.........as was stated earlier I swear the good programmers left CA sometime between Medieval/Rome and Medieval 2.  When problems that where there years ago in the franchise are still there?  It makes you wonder if CA took a page out of the UBIsoft code-recycling textbook.

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March 21, 2011 5:30:34 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ah I see where you are coming from,  I have had no MP issues, nor have my friends so maybe it is just bad luck. The biggest issue seems to be the fact that it is really hard to find anyone to play with.

I also have found the AI to be better than any previous TW game. The AI protects it's general, covers its flanks and helps out its allies. I have also found them to avoid suicidal wars.

Hollywood and authenticity are practically antonyms so you can't equate period music and art in a game as being arcadish.

Issues do exist but not everyone has them. I have an issue in which I am told that my main general is disloyal every turn for the past 20 turns. However, I have never been betrayed. I know of no-one else who actually has this, but the issue is real for me anyway. Not everyone has the same experience.

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March 21, 2011 6:42:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1. An unfinished game is garbage (especially when complete features are missing at launch)

2. Great......we have speeches, authentic music and art (hence the "hollywoood" comment) but we can't make the game connect people who want to play together without crashing or freezing or bugging out in other ways (ie. not showing the same info on every players screen etc.) Fantastic ideals for a deeper MP experience however some of the MP BASICS are presently horribly broken! Over the last few days I've spent more time (with serveral friends) trying to play the game than actual doing so!

That equals a frustratiing experience especially when CA has had so long (a rather lengthy franchise) to build on and "get things right". While I agree that CA is attempting many cool and interesting things with SHOGUN 2.........does it really come as a surprise one might be a tad upset at the realization that one paid 50 bucks for a nearly complete beta? There is no way that SHOGUN 2 should have been released now......maybe 2-3 months from now when the graphics options included with the game actually do work and the cool MP is actually working (and by that I mean working WELL at least 90% of the time) and doesn't just feel like a "proof of concept".

It does not seem like those who find your argument lacking are actively seeking to ignore your points. Looking at your above argument, which is a fairly distinct argument to the one you had first posted, you have made several lofty claims yet have not fully backed them up. I will assume that in your opinion, an unfinished game is one that contains any game or UI element that presents itself without performing some function. Thus, in your original argument, the game is unfinished due to the inclusion of a UI element for anti-aliasing support without actually supporting such functionality. While I will admit this may be a bit odd, such support does necessarily warrant a 2 to 3 month delay for a functionality that most will probably not use. Though this assumption of an unfinished product does not necessarily take into account your argument above.

Let us then assume that in your opinion, an unfinished game is a game containing any game or UI element which does not work as intended. This assumption would support your second point above, such that MP was included yet does not appear to be performing as intended. However, this phrase, "works as intended," is not an easy thing to nail down, as it is clear that neither you nor I were in any developer meetings at CA. In general, I will agree that MP has not worked as I would expect, yet this is a far cry from the blanket statement that the game is some how unfinished. It is quite possible that Shogun 2 simply had unexpected issues that did not surface before being placed under a more significant load. As someone who claims to have played each Total War game in the series, you make an interesting claim that CA should have some how built upon their previous work, yet with respect to the multiplayer experience in Shogun 2, there is no ground for such a claim in that previous work.

While I will not argue that the AI still has a host of wacky issues and MP has significant shortcomings, this iteration of Shogun 2 is not an unfinished game nor a "nearly complete beta". It is quite simply a game with which you personally are unhappy. I can not knock you for that point of view, yet as a game who has paid full price for Shogun 2, I am quite happy with my purchase and feel that the current state is a strong start for the game which will only be made stronger via future patches.

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March 21, 2011 10:57:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well summed up, Kenata.

I've had the privilege of playing Shogun 2 for 8 or so hours. What a delightfully challenging game! I haven't had this tough time with Total Wars since the first Medieval. I've heard the challenge may lessen somewhat towards the end of the game, but I don't really mind.

And I even honestly lost a battle to the AI, something that hasn't happened in years. They did outnumber me by a nice margin, but they still outmaneuvered me. That is so cool.

Shogun 2 makes Vallu a happy boy 

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March 21, 2011 3:20:32 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting kenata,


It does not seem like those who find your argument lacking are actively seeking to ignore your points. Looking at your above argument, which is a fairly distinct argument to the one you had first posted, you have made several lofty claims yet have not fully backed them up. I will assume that in your opinion, an unfinished game is one that contains any game or UI element that presents itself without performing some function. Thus, in your original argument, the game is unfinished due to the inclusion of a UI element for anti-aliasing support without actually supporting such functionality. While I will admit this may be a bit odd, such support does necessarily warrant a 2 to 3 month delay for a functionality that most will probably not use. Though this assumption of an unfinished product does not necessarily take into account your argument above.

Unfinished means exactly what it sounds like it means.  It doesn't matter how many users / if any will use the unfinished features.  Lack of functionality of an included feature most definitely qualifies as "unfinished".  Seriously what exactly does unfinished mean to you if not what I posted?  You'll also note that I didn't say 2-3 months of work required on adding AA alone.  That time-estimate was thrown out there considering the unfinished/untested state of the other complaint areas surrounding SHOGUN 2 as well.

Quoting kenata,


Let us then assume that in your opinion, an unfinished game is a game containing any game or UI element which does not work as intended. This assumption would support your second point above, such that MP was included yet does not appear to be performing as intended. However, this phrase, "works as intended," is not an easy thing to nail down, as it is clear that neither you nor I were in any developer meetings at CA. In general, I will agree that MP has not worked as I would expect, yet this is a far cry from the blanket statement that the game is some how unfinished. It is quite possible that Shogun 2 simply had unexpected issues that did not surface before being placed under a more significant load. As someone who claims to have played each Total War game in the series, you make an interesting claim that CA should have some how built upon their previous work, yet with respect to the multiplayer experience in Shogun 2, there is no ground for such a claim in that previous work.

No assumption necessary.  I said "unfinished" and you should know exactly what that means (see above).  When I speak of MP issues, I'm not even talking about the new cool MP stuff CA has decided to introduce.  I'm talking about MP BASICS.  Like connection issues etc.  These aren't somehow new issues especially not to a studio like CA that has been around for a long time.  If they didn't "put it under a more significant load" how is that anyone's fault but their own?  The connection-based issues in SHOGUN 2 are not there because of some "ground-breaking new tech", they are there because of plain network transport-related configuration issues at the user-end.  These issues have plauged all MP-enabled games of late and any studio venturing into the same territory (nevermind making ground-breaking MP changes) should have focused A LOT more time and energy (see reference to additional 2-3 months beta testing in a previous post of mine) on making sure the use of tunneling-netcode (having to be used these days because no one wants to forward ports anymore) and any proxies required to complete said connection-process work tolerably well.  This has not been the case (again case for calling product "unfinished").

 

Quoting kenata,

While I will not argue that the AI still has a host of wacky issues and MP has significant shortcomings, this iteration of Shogun 2 is not an unfinished game nor a "nearly complete beta". It is quite simply a game with which you personally are unhappy. I can not knock you for that point of view, yet as a game who has paid full price for Shogun 2, I am quite happy with my purchase and feel that the current state is a strong start for the game which will only be made stronger via future patches.

If after reading my above replies you still believe the game is only unfinished to me and by my interpretation of the word, then any further discourse on the subject matter would be pointless and I'll bow out of this thread.

thanks again for reading,

 

the Monk

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March 21, 2011 5:07:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If after reading my above replies you still believe the game is only unfinished to me and by my interpretation of the word, then any further discourse on the subject matter would be pointless and I'll bow out of this thread.

As one final point, you seem to believe that someone who disagrees with your interpretation of unfinished also disagrees completely with your analysis of the shortcomings. In my humble opinion, it is impossible to use the multiplayer functionality without running into questionable basic level design choices. However, as you pointed out, the multiplayer really only suffers from what one might call a lack of experience in the arena, which should not be a surprise considering it is the first game in the series to try such an ambitious multiplayer experience. It is easy to say that 2 to 3 months of beta would have solved these problem before release, and in this assumption, you are more than likely correct. Yet, there are many reasons why an open or closed beta is not necessarily the correct course of action for a product release, and like most game customers, it is easy to overlook, disagree with, or even ignore the tough business decisions which must sometimes be made in order to have a successful product release. Thus, at the end of the day, while the game ended up being released with some features that do not work as well as one might like, this was one of many calculated risks that ultimately paid off in a game that has been well received from the hard core community and critics.

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March 24, 2011 3:35:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This game is awesome... and I absolutely lost my first campaign! 2nd campaign is going much better and I'm enjoying this game. It is soooo much better then Empire: Total War which almost made me lose hope for the series.

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March 27, 2011 5:51:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Just had a moment of total awesome. Had 4 (1 bow, 3 katana) units defending a castle come under siege. The enemy had like 24 units or something (alliance attack! how cool is that). So I know I'm going to lose, and I almost hit the auto-resolve button. I mean, the castle doesn't even have any towers.

But I decide to make them bleed for every inch in the motherland. So first the enemy sends in the spearunits and I mean they just charge right up the walls, don't even wait for their archers. My katana guys wait for them at the top of the walls and absolutely slaughter them. With no chance to charge and no chance to form spearwalls, the spear units just get massacred even though they outnumber my guys 5 to 1. So after that, the enemy moves up all his archers and surround the castle and just nuuuuke away. After about 10 minutes of that, when I have around 30 guys left, the archers run out of arrows and come up the walls. Their cavalry is still hanging back. So I have 30 guys left, and the enemy is again scaling the walls with probably 500 archers. Time to charge. And there, amongst hundreds of archers, my last guys meet their end, outnumbered 15 to 1 and still holding out for minutes and taking more than a hundred of the enemy with them. It was quite an epic scene with my last few guys surrounded by all those archers trying to get in melee.

Final results: all my units dead (250 guys). The enemy? From 2000 some units, they lost over 1000 guys. And this was in a castle with no towers.

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March 27, 2011 11:32:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Just had a moment of total awesome. Had 4 (1 bow, 3 katana) units defending a castle come under siege. The enemy had like 24 units or something (alliance attack! how cool is that). So I know I'm going to lose, and I almost hit the auto-resolve button. I mean, the castle doesn't even have any towers.

But I decide to make them bleed for every inch in the motherland. So first the enemy sends in the spearunits and I mean they just charge right up the walls, don't even wait for their archers. My katana guys wait for them at the top of the walls and absolutely slaughter them. With no chance to charge and no chance to form spearwalls, the spear units just get massacred even though they outnumber my guys 5 to 1. So after that, the enemy moves up all his archers and surround the castle and just nuuuuke away. After about 10 minutes of that, when I have around 30 guys left, the archers run out of arrows and come up the walls. Their cavalry is still hanging back. So I have 30 guys left, and the enemy is again scaling the walls with probably 500 archers. Time to charge. And there, amongst hundreds of archers, my last guys meet their end, outnumbered 15 to 1 and still holding out for minutes and taking more than a hundred of the enemy with them. It was quite an epic scene with my last few guys surrounded by all those archers trying to get in melee.

Final results: all my units dead (250 guys). The enemy? From 2000 some units, they lost over 1000 guys. And this was in a castle with no towers.

See, not only did you get a cool game, but you also got a Japanese version of 300!!! hehe

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March 27, 2011 2:43:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Heavenfall, out of curiosity, what difficulty were you playing on during that battle you describe above?

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March 27, 2011 3:49:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Normal

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March 28, 2011 3:28:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Finding out the MP gets worse/dumber as you rank up.  Size limits grow too big.

 

I think it's time to wait for patch, and if needbe, walk.

 

 

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March 28, 2011 5:27:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Played every total war game except Napoleon, and to be honest i wasn't holding my breath for this. But...

Shogun 2 is the best one yet.

I love how it just seems to have all the atmosphere of the original. The ninja cutscenes take me back to good times [e digicons]:')[/e]

I also love the MP campaign, and avatar conquest, this is a game i can actually win at online!

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March 29, 2011 8:09:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thank you for this post. May I ask a question?

I have never played a TW series game before. I just read the review on GameSpot, it was the first time I have heard about this game, since I do not follow prerelease news about anything much, and have (mistakenly?) believed that the previous TW series were RTSs (which I do not like). Anyhow, when reading the review, I was shocked: the game seemed to be exactly everything I would have imagined Elemental should be (except for the fantasy setting and the magic), only better. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Elemental and TW: Shogun2? Or: Why should I wait for Fallen Enchantress if I could buy Shogun now? (Note: I do not play Elemental anymore.)

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March 29, 2011 8:46:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They haven't released enough information about FE to give you any sort of informed decision about "which is more fun". Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with Shogun 2, but if you are limited to only one game and it has to be either FE or Shogun 2, your only real option is to wait for FE to get released until you make a decision.

I guess the main talking points would be

- dynamic (FE) vs constant (S) playfield

- fantasy (FE) vs realistic (S) gameplay/lore

- completely turn-based (FE) vs mixed (S) tactical combat (tactical combat is done in real time but can be paused or slowed down or sped up in shogun2)

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March 29, 2011 9:04:19 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I played the demo several times and decided to buy it even though I have all the Total War series. I didn't think I could get into the feudal Japan era and didn't like learning the Japanese unit names. But it grew on me and I bought it. I must say it is a beautiful game. The presentation is spot on. The sea battles on the coast lines are absolutely gorgeous and the boat are teaming with moving "living" people. I also like the focus on the islands of Japan.

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March 29, 2011 5:08:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I did not realise this game had such good coop facilites! Why was this not advertised? Very awesome game.

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March 29, 2011 10:05:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Aractain,
I did not realise this game had such good coop facilites! Why was this not advertised? Very awesome game.

How does the coop actually work? I've been having a hard time finding good details on it for some reason.

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March 29, 2011 10:40:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TheProgress,

I've read that the AI doesn't properly lay siege to settlements - they just charge blindly at the walls and die. True?

 

That pretty much is siege until you develop siege weapons. Unlike Medieval, there's not a lot in the way of battering rams or catapults, etc, and battlefield ninja haven't hit the field, especially not in the early phases of the game (where I am right now).

Most of the success of a siege seems to come before the actual siege. For example, I took out Tokugawa as Oda and before Imagawa ran some ungodly stack up to take back Mikawa, he had sabotaged my gates (I didn't know this until the siege and the first thing I saw was "My Lord, a ninja has sabotaged our castle!" So one gate and some of the walls were already at 100% destroyed.

What followed was an intense defense on my part that I narrowly held out on only because I had two generals, spread them out so their individual "Inspiration Radius" would cover all the defenders, and I had just enough Ashigaru Yari to hold the sabotaged gate.

Imagawa attempted to storm the castle walls in "shifts" hoping to draw my arrow fire while pressing the sabotaged gate. They got into the castle through the gate, but I was able to hold them (Katana Samurai hurt...) though I had to move the general that was there out of harm's way (he lost 23 of his 30 men)

Then came all the huge number of archers firing away on my archers, wiping out three of mine and their troops climbing the walls made it up and started harassing the archers too. Luckily, Nobunaga was unharmed and I could flank with him and move his "Inspiration Radius" over to help. The archers there also pelted the invading forces.

 

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March 29, 2011 10:44:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting James009D,
This game is awesome... and I absolutely lost my first campaign! 2nd campaign is going much better and I'm enjoying this game. It is soooo much better then Empire: Total War which almost made me lose hope for the series.

 

Same here - I picked Oda, got wiped in two turns (was building up to clear the rebels, then Saito attacked, Tokugawa moved in, held off Saito, Tokugawa finished me.

Second attempt as Oda - took out rebels - Saito attacks, wipes me out.


Both on normal. Part of it is because I'm used to Nobunaga's Ambition where Oda is allied with Saito to start (and normally, they aren't exactly strong), Nobunaga is in control of Oda and Tokugawa isn't all that strong yet either (and eventually, Okehazama happens and Oda and Tokugawa become BFFs).

Nobunaga's Ambition starts at 1555 - so past all this early uncertainty in Owari if nothing else.

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March 30, 2011 12:56:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Tridus,

Quoting Aractain, reply 70I did not realise this game had such good coop facilites! Why was this not advertised? Very awesome game.
How does the coop actually work? I've been having a hard time finding good details on it for some reason.

 

Well...

Two player campaign. Can be compeative or coop (wasn't avalible in empire) i.e alliance works with objectives for victory this time.

Spectate mode for battles vs AI with the ability to gift units to the specator giving them full control and helping out. Can gift them at any time but only if the other player is spectating. If they have thier own forces (by reiforcment) you can't share units.

Alliances give line of sight to each other and there is a ping feature, yay. Turns are per person but you can do almost everything during the other persons turn (not move and not diplomancy).


Everything else is like single player I think.

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March 30, 2011 5:10:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting onomastikon,
Thank you for this post. May I ask a question?

I have never played a TW series game before. I just read the review on GameSpot, it was the first time I have heard about this game, since I do not follow prerelease news about anything much, and have (mistakenly?) believed that the previous TW series were RTSs (which I do not like). Anyhow, when reading the review, I was shocked: the game seemed to be exactly everything I would have imagined Elemental should be (except for the fantasy setting and the magic), only better. What is, in your opinion, the difference between Elemental and TW: Shogun2? Or: Why should I wait for Fallen Enchantress if I could buy Shogun now? (Note: I do not play Elemental anymore.)

Well Ono, I would say download and play the Shogun 2 demo off Steam. It Does have Real Time battles, but the campaign map is turn based. To answer your other questions, Shogun wins in the battle department hands down over Elemental. Why? Because the battles are HUGE and Epic and every guy on the screen is animated. While I do still love Elemental, I really wish the battles in Elemental would have been more in line with the TW games. At the very least, even in a true turn based environment like Elemental's, EVERY GUY in a UNIT NEEDS to be ANIMATED during attacking and defending. Don't just have one guy from each unit stand out front and do the attacking and defending.

Seeing as how you don't like real time games, I heavily suggest trying the Shogun 2 Demo before going out and buying the game. Those of us who are loving Shogun 2 most likely enjoy real time battles just as much as we enjoy turn based empire building.

 

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