pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

robert's filthy rich games

I'll post on this in detail when I think of it... just jotting this down for now. I think I came up with a way for a dg to win 100% of the time after 7-10 minutes playing on the typical bobby filthy rich settings. This isn't me taking a shot at bobby at all, btw. I just want to show that its somewhat futile to play on those settings and I'll suggest an improvement afterward.

Update:

So, I ran a few demo games using less than optimal builds. First, here are the game settings I used. They are either spot on or might be off on flag capture duration - can't remember.

These settings are typically used in 3v3 and > on Exile (primarily due to location of the artifact shops, I'd think)

Here are the replays:

http://www.box.net/shared/agk3yeq2ta

http://www.box.net/shared/fgt4dktabm

Each game ends a little after 10 minutes with me destroying the enemy citadel.

Basic strategy:

Play as oak - stay in a lane with creeps as long as possible. Generally, while the other flags are contested, you'll be able to stay in a lane without too much issue. You don't really need to be all that aggressive - just make sure you are leveling. I chose a heavy damage kit, but frankly, as you aren't going to be fighting other dgs much (as possible), as long as you pick up treads and stack some armor, you'll be fine in most cases. Pick up last stand at level 8. Run through the high towers, shielding as needed. Pop a sigil when needed. Get up to the citadel and start pounding away. You'll die, have last stand activated, then die for real and come back after like 5 seconds due to the light death penalty. You likely just did about 40-50% damage to the citadel. Teleport as close to the cit as you can and repeat. Just do this over and over and over. Even if everyone on the other team starts to try to defend against you, still have shield + sigil, which buys your some time (and as you only have to make it to the citadel, that is that). In short - if you reach the citadel before last stand is activated, you'll destroy the citadel after 2-3 runs, tops.

Flaws in the setup:

The light death penalty is fun as you get right back into the battle. Not so fun if you have a dg like oak that, when he dies can do even more dps and be completely invincible. Oak's just a basic example, though. You could accomplish the same thing with a ub or many other dgs without much of a problem.

So, how can you counter this sort of thing? You can't really. The low war score rate and high xp rate means that by the time I hit level 8 or so, neither team will likely even have ws3. So, you can't upgrade the strength of your citadel past fs1 (not that it would help much). The only way you could try to buy some time would be with mass universal gadgets... and if you are wasting time doing that, I'm already on my way back to work on the citadel some more. Basically, the moment it dawns on a team to rush the other teams citadel, the game will effectively end. Each and every dg can do a ton a damage. As long as you reach the citadel and start pounding away, the game will end.

Suggested changes to the setup:

It seems like the biggest flaw in this is in how easy it is to kill the citadel. Now, I noticed that the folks that play this alot didn't really bother with citadel rushes. Instead, they were extremely aggressive towards the flag control aspect and focused on PVP much more than taking out towers, etc. Based on that, I think a really simple change that would take away the easy kills on the citadel (not completely, but in a huge way), would be to play these games on dominate or slaughter. Seems like that's what the folks already playing this tend to enjoy doing anyway.

Here's a short replay of me using the same tactic, but with the settings on dominate (in case you don't know, on both dominate and slaughter, you actually take damage if you attack the citadel and the citadel has substantially more HP at level 1.

http://www.box.net/shared/hrlt9ylgzj

Anyway, if you bothered to watch, you could see that, while I was still able to rush the citadel, I would not be able to take it out quickly, even with the quick death penalty. That's not to say I still couldn't do it, but with the change in game type, the other team would have a chance at defending.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

I'll throw a hint out there before I toss up the replay - bobby - i think your current settings would be awesome for slayer.

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sounds like a DG is able to just tear down the citadel around then on their own and they become impossible to kill before it drops.

Sounds like Oak, and iirc, the game settings on his lobby give extreme gold / xp. So, lvl 20 oak, max shield, max spirits, surge w/e. I figure you've worked out the tweaks, but I would imagine it made use of heart of life or wings of the seraphim and probably orb of defiance as well (just in case they all focused you). Unless you just meant super beefy minions, which are hard as shit to kill if you max them out and they can drop a citadel in 30 seconds in a high gold game before level 15 even. However, minion oak is nothing new.. hope you meant some invincible build where you just sit attacking the citadel and have such good regen / dodge that you simply never die even with the other team having ashkandor and shit.

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Quoting 4Nana,

reply 3

sounds like a DG is able to just tear down the citadel around then on their own and they become impossible to kill before it drops.

Sounds like Oak, and iirc, the game settings on his lobby give extreme gold / xp. So, lvl 20 oak, max shield, max spirits, surge w/e. I figure you've worked out the tweaks, but I would imagine it made use of heart of life or wings of the seraphim and probably orb of defiance as well (just in case they all focused you). Unless you just meant super beefy minions, which are hard as shit to kill if you max them out and they can drop a citadel in 30 seconds in a high gold game before level 15 even. However, minion oak is nothing new.. hope you meant some invincible build where you just sit attacking the citadel and have such good regen / dodge that you simply never die even with the other team having ashkandor and shit.

I miss you rawrrr. sit on vent once and awhile.

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I also think he meant spirit Oak w/ extremely beefed-up minions + Bracelet of Rage. Either that, or... MCP Rook

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I would have said QOT with Bracelet of Rage and Crit hit/attack speed.

Ground spike + 5-6 crits and an uproot bring it down VERY rapidly providing it hasnt upgraded (still at first level).

I have done this in an AI game, you can run through the towers with shield and bring the citadel down before they can even teleport in to defend it

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My understanding was UB would be for sure OP on filthy rich setting and demolish anything?

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I would have said QOT with Bracelet of Rage and Crit hit/attack speed.

QoT has no easy means of reaching enemy territory, she needs to demolish mid methodically first, and that process starts to be possible only at levels 10+, unless you are very gallant and love feeding enemy DGs -- Filthy Rich or not.

Spirit Oak does not even need to reach it physically.

My understanding was UB would be for sure OP on filthy rich setting and demolish anything?

In my opinion, UB benefits less from crazy Filthy Rich settings than many other DGs do. What makes a good UB really unstoppable in regular games is fast powerlvl'ing due to soloing a lane + good items due to not spending gold on upgrades. His greatest strength is probably Acclimation, after all. Now, on Filthy Rich everyone has a large pool of money to spend, so... He remains very powerful, of course, just relatively weaker than in regular games. Then again, it's all theoretical, I'm no UB or Filthy Rich player

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i disagree, on filthy rich + high XP, you can spec out a build that is set ONLY to do this very quickly and easily. Under normal settings i would have to agree but with this setup the meta is significantly changed.

On Cateract there is a position at the citadel where only one tower can hit you and you can bring it down LONG before a reaction can be made, especially if the opposing team is engaged (i have done it in under 7 seconds at lvl 14 on these settings). With shield and Jtreads you can get to the citadel VERY quickly and be quite safe while you destroy it.

Also QOT probably gains the most benifit out of any of the demigods with Filthy-Rich/ High Xp settings due to her very substantial farming abilities. Her biggest weakness is lack of mana, which is nullified with immediate access to helms allowing her to farm effectively for an infinite amount of time, and with high XP this leads to very rapid out-leveling of enemy demigods.

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Actually, I play QoT a lot, and I surely get your drift -- no need to convince me she can out-farm anyone, with the possible exception of TB, or that she benefits a lot from high-end items. However, I think you are overestimating her abilities as far as MP Filthy Rich games go. The catch is the strategy described by you is only theoretically possible in a skilled match. No offense, but Munch's games aren't matches vs AI that just wanders around and lets you destroy everything (sadly, even with the wonderful enhanced AI mod, computer-controlled opponents aren't overly challenging: for instance, I can destroy mid with QoT unchecked on).

Spirit Oak, on the other hand, has no viable counter even in highly skilled matches. Occ just gets pwn3d significantly slower than other DGs, but it is no counter. Luckily, it's irrelevant, since pro players usually aren't fond of cheap tactics.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

Updating the op with replays, etc in a few

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

And side note - what I described is obviously just a lame, cheap tactic that exploits the game settings. Its not just that you could easily kill a citadel going with a spirit build (if you chose to do that) or using last stand to wipe it out in as a *slightly* less cheaper tactic. I think the problem is that any team could pull off a 3 man rush on the citadel if they felt so inclined anytime after the 8 minute mark or so. Even if your whole team gets wiped out, you probably still dropped the citadel's hp by about 30% and can just go back and repeat the attack after being dead for 5 seconds. And as the game only ends when the citadel falls, it does make a little bit of sense to try to destroy it.

And last note - no one in bobby's game really used these sort of tactics. They just focused on pvp which is what I think they enjoy so much about these settings.

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QoT with highest minion idols and Fell Darkur

Level 1 QoT with GS 1 =~ 12.5 seconds to kill a tower
Level 4 QoT with GS 2 =~ 9 seconds to kill a tower & 30 Seconds to kill starting cit

This is assuming you get to ground spike unmolested continuously and recast your minotaurs as often as possible,

I'd say if you play a fast queen you can be real abusive early on , probably not as much as Oak once he gets last stand... but right from the start you can kill towers safely before the enemy can really respond...

Maybe Anklet + Journeymans + Wand of speed and warpstone so you cannot be caught

edit: Sorry I originally said Anklet + cloak of night when I meant Anklet + warpstone

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This is assuming you get to ground spike unmolested continuously and recast your minotaurs as often as possible,

Exactly. And that is impossible to achieve vs good well-geared players.

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Pacov, Not a shot at you but i'm thinking you got this from renz?

If so i was there when he tried it.

The teams were:

me(ub) rob(oak) ?Brasher(occ)?

renz(oak) inerz(tb) ?ravenXI?

When we started dominating flags and killing them quite often, ( around dg level 8 ) , renz started doing exactly what you were talking about. I did an MCP UB build, and i had ash + mage + some armour . With high towers, I could easily make oak sigil sheild and still kill him every time before he got through the mass of towers on exile (the spot where theres 3 on all 4 corners) By the time he got to the citadel he had 1 or 2 seconds left on his last stand and did only 2-5 k dmg each time. This is easily regenerated with fs1 and maybe a gadget by the time he gets back to do it again.

Point is, in your replays you may have found it definitive that there is no counter to this, but untill you try against rob or anyone who does this lots, you'll never know. If your up agaisnt a ub and a reg gone full crit. you won't get to the citadel in time and i can garuntee that.

All i can say about these games is... MCP DA ALL THE WAY! It's my favourite dg to play in these types of games, and he just gets ridiculously op agaisnt anyone, ESPECIALLY because its 3v3, Swap is just too major on exile. I've played in a 3v3 where i was ub and tvenrus was da, and each of our two allies were pretty even, but da kept owning me all the time, since then i play da only on these games.

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pacov

Join Date 02/2008

+183

nah - it occurred to me about mid way through a game last night against bobby. And sure, I can always try it out. I'd rather not do this in a real game, but sure.

Anyway, just based on my limited experience in bobby's filthy rich games, this seemed like a pretty big gap. It's not a warning to stay away from his games at all - just a suggestion to switch over to domination if that's really what you folks seem to be playing. I'd wager you have more experience in his games of this type and perhaps you know better and that it can be stopped. I am, going to guess, that renz made his runs on the citadel as a last ditch effort when he figured his team was screwed. At that point, perhaps it was too late? An oak with surge 2 + jtreads does tend to move pretty quickly through towers.

And of course, play dg however you guys enjoy it. Just tossed out my 2 cents.

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To be clear this isn't a rush to tear down the citadel, this is to remove the RUSH TO GIANTS OMG WIN PORTAL CAP LOCK BAI. Straight PVP no bullshit. This isn't a typical game just a change of pace then the old and tiresome UB/OAK/LE that you kids love to play and fap to on vent while saying who's the coolest top tier player. Originally Kromt hosted these types of games and someone else Anasis. I tweaked the settings and made it more fast paced. Nobody has a problem with these settings and it's discussed in the lobby before hand.

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i dont think anyone was having a go at your setting, just discussing strategies

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Indeed, Rob. No one insinuated you cheat or something. A lot of players enjoy those settings as they are -- you surely trick no one into playing those games. To be sure, Pacov loves a bit of paranoia here and there, but that's clearly not the case. To quote OP, if still in doubt:

This isn't me taking a shot at bobby at all, btw.

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