Gk2011

Join Date 05/2010

Capital Ships. Good or bad?

I am playings sins once again I had to quit for awhile since something was causing the game to load weird. I load the game it goes to the main menu and there are no buttons just a translucent sq. But fixed that with a patch.

Anyway I was looking around the forums and have found that almost everyone has been saying to people that they are "To heavy on capital ships."

Now I am not saying I am going to to charge a fully loaded star base with 9 capital ships. But in a large map I like to have many capital ships so I can quickly split large fleets into smaller groups on command and the individual group still has a good chunk of fire power with the ability of the capital ships.

This allows me to run quick flanks and enter planets from different phase lanes which splits there firepower up.

Can someone explain?

strategy

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They are saying that on small maps, loading up on capital ships is not a smart idea. But on large maps its ok because your fleet has to cover a wide area.

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

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^Well not exactly. Capital ships are very useful for their abilities, but in actual combat power for their cost they are not very good until you reach high levels. You do want one in each fleet for planet bombing at least (since siege frigates are even worse to build), but most of your fleet supply should be in frigates and cruisers, not capital ships.

Another thing you don't want to do is have a lot of capital ships in the same gravity well, as they cannibalize each others experience. Its much better to have 1 capital ship get 80 exp from a battle than to have 4 get 20 exp each, as the former will level up faster. And as capital ships really need to get a few levels to be worthwhile, you want to do everything possible to encourage them to grow fast.

The only potential exception to this rule is if you are playing as the Advent and have a level six Progenitor to spare. In this case you can replace any high level capital ships you lose with its ultimate ability, so this makes them more expendable and as you can build caps at high levels, they are much more competitive to use. Of course you will only be able to do this late game where you've probably already won, but its still fun to use.

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GoaFan more or less nails it. In terms of sheer combat power, you get less bang for your buck from capital ships than from frigates, and you run a very high risk of being overwhelmed by brute force. A capital ship's true power is its abilities, and as a result the goal is to raise capital ships to a higher level. Too many and you'll level up much too slowly. The goal is to balance your capital ship fleet in such a way to promote higher levels and maximum versatility.

It can be easy to fall in love with capital ships, but if you go online you'll run into a typical TEC LRM rush and see where they lack. A human player will hit you with a well-timed attack with perhaps 50 LRM within 15 minutes. All research included, this is only a little bit more than the cost of building two additional capital ships. In terms of combat power, though... that many LRM can destroy a capital ship in less than 30 seconds. This is not a trade you can make.

Of course you will only be able to do this late game where you've probably already won, but its still fun to use.

Armistice and Ressurrection are the two "game-winner" abilities. They are in a class of their own in terms of their sheer value and importance, and if you can bring them out at the right time, they can turn the game around. TEC is notoriously weak in the late game (you won't feel this so much against the AI, since it doesn't make use of many of the tactics that give TEC the hardest time) and armistice is practically their only ace in the hole. Ressurrection allows Advent to match up to Vasari without having to fear its capital ships getting ravaged, and against TEC it makes them virtually impervious to true harm. Without being able to deal lasting damage, TEC is pretty well screwed against Advent with ressurrection.

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Caps really only shine in comparison to siege frigates. While siege frigates deliver more pure, unalloyed bombardment strength compared to caps, caps are much, much tougher, more flexible, and hard-hitting to enemy ships and structures.

Here's a per-population comparison of a Krosov Siege Frigate to the Kol Battleship:

Korsov Siege Frigate
30 hull
15 shield
0.43 DPS
1.33 Bombard

Kol Battleship
60 hull
25 shield
1.03 DPS
0.86 Bombard

And of course this is only a level 1 Kol. As the Kol increases in level, it will get more hull and shields, and of course, more powerful abilities. Now this added power is, of course, expensive in the short run, as you'll need to spend credits to increase your Capital support. However, I submit that in the long term, the Caps are an excellent deal, since they deliver a lot more flexibility and power for the same fleet supply, and your fleet supply limit is a constant drain on your resources, which will accrue over time and increase as the size of your empire grows.

All this said, bombardment is a luxury you can only really engage in when you've got uncontested control of the gravity well, so overbuying caps when your fleet is overmatched is not a wise decision.

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Various people have found that the siege capitals (Revelation is considered the Advent siege capital, but its only siege ability is available at level 6, so this may not apply) with one point in their siege ability is roughly equivalent in terms of bombardment damage to three siege frigates. In other words, 42 supply of frigates can do approximately the same damage as 50 supply (1 level 1 capital) to a planet.

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Caps really only shine in comparison to siege frigates.

They also have several other advantages that cannot be dismissed. Their strike craft do not cost antimatter to support, and if well-managed they can retreat before they take serious damage in smaller skirmishes. However, in large-scale battles capital ships pale in comparison to frigate-power and are used strictly for special abilities.

In other words, 42 supply of frigates can do approximately the same damage as 50 supply (1 level 1 capital) to a planet.

I was the one that did this comparison, although that was before the 1.18 buff to siege frigates. The comparison was 4 siege frigates against one level 1 capital ship (Marza and Vulkoras) specced for bombard, and I found all three approximately equal. In 1.18, the siege frigate got a damage buff and a supply cost buff (they're now 12 a piece, not 14) and are much more competitive, but they still barely outperform a level 1 capital ship and completely suck by all other metrics.

Siege frigates were actually the dominant unit in 1.00, but the game has changed dramatically since then, and players have improved as well. With carrier-openers and scout rush tactics now mature, I don't think the SF of old would be a significant threat at all.

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My point is not that Caps' other (very useful) abilities should be disregarded, merely that if you take into account the Caps' bombardment ability, they're actually a very good deal. YES, if your only aim is control of the gravity well, (non-siege) frigates will serve you better, but given that once a planet is taken by a rival, the only way to colonize it is to first bombard the existing population into extinction, the bombardment capability of the cap ships definitely offer strategic power that non-siege frigates simply don't provide, while still delivering a still-respectable amount of regular firepower.

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Hey, I found the thread with the siege comparison:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/363500

Was flipping through the archives looking for something else when I stumbled on it.

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