PC Games no longer work at release » Forum Post by tastheose

So Frogboy, any chance the game will ever see DX10/11 code or is that not until a future title?

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 100

I can't speak for how the industry should handle it. I can say what Stardock is going to do is just have much much much longer public beta programs ala Google. It means jettisoning retail first availability but I don't think that's going to matter in another year or two.

Good riddance to old school!

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I think "the industry" should get some credit in terms of specs on the box. It used to be if you had the min. the game would run like crap if it ran at all and they, the industry folks, would say something ridiculous like well it installs so we're good. Now if you have minimum, you can actually play the game. I might be hard on the gaming industry, but some areas got a lot, I mean a lot better. Is there room for improvement still, sure.

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PC games tend to suck simply because there isnt that much talent (programming, management, all around ) and money ($$$) in the PC game industry. There are assloads of complicated programs, even more complicated than *games, dare I say*, that are essentially flawless. The main problem that game developers complain about is the variation in end user systems. Whopdido! The vast majority of users should have no problems running the game if it is done even *half assed*, and this issue is not going to contribute to the overall success or failure of the game. The problem is a severe lack of ****GAME****. If the AI doesn't work, that's not a game. If the balance is absurd, that's not a game. If the gameplay is BOOOOORING, that's not a game ( or at least shouldn't be one).

The problem again, is a severe lack of talent, all around. If Elemental had been a Blizzard game, it would have been CANCELLED rather than released in the state elemental is in (or probably ever will be in). Stardock released it, and a ton of other companies would have too, but then again they're not major developers and never will be.

Only a few companies are capable of developing quality games. Talent and Money - its scarce.

Sad but true.

The really sad part is that this trend isn't going to change anytime soon.

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Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

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Quoting Istari,

reply 105

Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

I don't think so. I think we just saw some random idiocy. Trolls usually make some sense. Usually.

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Just posted my opinion, didn't mean to troll or start flame wars.

In the future I will agree or shut up. I'm kinda new here so I'm still learning...

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Magog, I think they are referring to that Nickak guy, the one who posted some incredible bullshit about Stardock having a severe lack of talent. Notice how I didn't tell that guy to go fuck himself, see, I am becoming a gentleman!

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 108

Magog, I think they are referring to that Nickak guy, the one who posted some incredible bullshit about Stardock having a severe lack of talent. Notice how I didn't tell that guy to go fuck himself, see, I am becoming a gentleman!

Aren't we all

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Quoting nickak2003,

reply 104

The problem is a severe lack of ****GAME****. If the AI doesn't work, that's not a game. If the balance is absurd, that's not a game. If the gameplay is BOOOOORING, that's not a game ( or at least shouldn't be one).

I'm not going to comment about the talent or lack of talent, since there's absolutely no way to objectively quantify that with respect to game developers.

I'll agree that the above quoted couple sentence are requirements for a fun game: AI (any game without a good AI will sux until it gets fixed), balance .. ? to me, that's just a part of the overall AI. I don't have a problem "buffing" the AI in order to make the game more challanging [or balanced], some people don't agree, but to me a weak AI that I can take with my left-pinky is 200% worse than a massivly "buffed" AI that can give me a challenging game. Gameplay has to be fun, sure.

If I had to rank the most important elements to a PC game to me personally and their % factor necessity for a good, enjoyable game, it'd be as follows: Gametype is basically a degree of flexability, I only like strategy games & some RT games that have a strategy foundation hence I rated it high, somebody that likes every single PC game regardless of Type would have a 0 gameType preference (type of game doesn't matter).

element ....... necessity

AI ...................... 100%

Gameplay ........... 100%

GameType .......... 90%

Manual ............... 70%

UI ...................... 50%

MM Playability ...... 0

Graphics .............. 0

background story .. 0

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 2

Quoting cpl_rk, reply 1Ive had many new PC games that won't work at release over the past decade, most recently Elven legacy. It doesn't work on my old windows xp nor my new windows 7 system. I actually feel that a game should work out-of-the-box that matches the system specs, that doesn't seem like much to ask for.

In general, newer games sux quality wise in relation to older games (in many different ways: weak AIs, shi**y or no manuals, bugs & patches, and just flat-out non-working). It's very obvious to me that modern devs only care about the money, everything else it secondary or non-existent.

It's that or making computer games is really fucking hard. Making a game for a console is different than a computer. If Xiacorp makes a game for Xbox, I know that generally, it will run the same on every single Xbox out there. If I make one for a computer, then I can only test out so many different computer specs and then hope my game works on most when it's released and then hope I can patch it quickly for those it doesn't work well on. That doesn't explain crappy AI, or lazy art work where armor clips through and looks terrible, or other flaws that come from design choices, but it does explain a lot of the bugs.

address his point .. Quality of PC games of yesterday vs. Quality of PC games of today. Not console to PC.

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Quoting Savyg,

reply 106

Quoting Istari, reply 105Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

I don't think so. I think we just saw some random idiocy. Trolls usually make some sense. Usually.

So trolls and idiots are people that dont see things your way .. ..... you need to mature beyond that,

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Quoting empire2008,

reply 112

Quoting Savyg, reply 106
Quoting Istari, reply 105Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

I don't think so. I think we just saw some random idiocy. Trolls usually make some sense. Usually.

So trolls and idiots are people that dont see things your way .. ..... you need to mature beyond that,

That's a little too naive. I don't think that conclusion can be drawn out of necessity from what you've read in those responses.

There are a few indications of when someone is trolling. Firstly, a troll is someone who isn't trying to be constructive or helpful in their criticism. Secondly, they tend to make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with any factual assertions. Thirdly, they are often unnecessarily harsh, insulting and offensive, when they could have gotten the same message across in a better way. Fourthly, trolls are seen to make statements of certainty about things that they have no expertise or professional/commercial experience in, and about things that are relative or not readily quantifiable. This also makes it easy to understand why Savyg has referred to it as idiocy.

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

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Quoting empire2008,

reply 111

Quoting Lord Xia,
reply 2

Quoting cpl_rk, reply 1Ive had many new PC games that won't work at release over the past decade, most recently Elven legacy. It doesn't work on my old windows xp nor my new windows 7 system. I actually feel that a game should work out-of-the-box that matches the system specs, that doesn't seem like much to ask for.

In general, newer games sux quality wise in relation to older games (in many different ways: weak AIs, shi**y or no manuals, bugs & patches, and just flat-out non-working). It's very obvious to me that modern devs only care about the money, everything else it secondary or non-existent.

It's that or making computer games is really fucking hard. Making a game for a console is different than a computer. If Xiacorp makes a game for Xbox, I know that generally, it will run the same on every single Xbox out there. If I make one for a computer, then I can only test out so many different computer specs and then hope my game works on most when it's released and then hope I can patch it quickly for those it doesn't work well on. That doesn't explain crappy AI, or lazy art work where armor clips through and looks terrible, or other flaws that come from design choices, but it does explain a lot of the bugs.

address his point .. Quality of PC games of yesterday vs. Quality of PC games of today. Not console to PC.

It's been addressed. Computer games have become exponentially more and more difficult to create due to the increase in technology and the increase of diversity of systems. Back in the 80's, one guy could make a computer game in a number of weeks. And, I bet, if you wanted to make the exact same game now, it would a bit longer and suffer a little more bugs, simply because the difficulty of making it compatible with the plethora of different machines out there.

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Um, yeah - what I said is the bare naked truth about the game industry. I'm a professional and I can say that most of the junk about hard programming is a load of crap. There's something called a TEAM - it incudes programmers, managers, designers, all sorts of people.

Sometimes teams fail because they have a lack of talent in the right areas. Gee, did stardock recently fire a shit ton of people that worked on elemental?

GEEEEEE. Yeah, I'm obviously a troll.

A game like Elemental is not hard to program. Like *most* modern games, the hardest part is the content. Elemental was released as unfunctional, and with a severe lack of content. ( to compare, MoM had about 50x more content ).

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Quoting Istari,

reply 113

Quoting empire2008,
reply 112

Quoting Savyg, reply 106
Quoting Istari, reply 105Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

I don't think so. I think we just saw some random idiocy. Trolls usually make some sense. Usually.

So trolls and idiots are people that dont see things your way .. ..... you need to mature beyond that,

That's a little too naive. I don't think that conclusion can be drawn out of necessity from what you've read in those responses.

There are a few indications of when someone is trolling. Firstly, a troll is someone who isn't trying to be constructive or helpful in their criticism. Secondly, they tend to make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with any factual assertions. Thirdly, they are often unnecessarily harsh, insulting and offensive, when they could have gotten the same message across in a better way. Fourthly, trolls are seen to make statements of certainty about things that they have no expertise or professional/commercial experience in, and about things that are relative or not readily quantifiable. This also makes it easy to understand why Savyg has referred to it as idiocy.

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

Sorry, I'm not a fanboi from happy land. I know some people like consolding developers that post about their hardships in forums, and some people just cant wait for elemental 2 to kick ass, and some people love to pay to be beta testers. Sorry though, thats just not me. I respect our differences.

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Quoting Istari,

reply 113

Quoting empire2008, reply 112
Quoting Savyg, reply 106
Quoting Istari, reply 105Did somebody summon a troll and then cast 'Fanning the Flames'?

Sorry, I thought I was playing M:TG for a second there.

I don't think so. I think we just saw some random idiocy. Trolls usually make some sense. Usually.

So trolls and idiots are people that dont see things your way .. ..... you need to mature beyond that,

That's a little too naive. I don't think that conclusion can be drawn out of necessity from what you've read in those responses.

There are a few indications of when someone is trolling. Firstly, a troll is someone who isn't trying to be constructive or helpful in their criticism. Secondly, they tend to make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with any factual assertions. Thirdly, they are often unnecessarily harsh, insulting and offensive, when they could have gotten the same message across in a better way. Fourthly, trolls are seen to make statements of certainty about things that they have no expertise or professional/commercial experience in, and about things that are relative or not readily quantifiable. This also makes it easy to understand why Savyg has referred to it as idiocy.

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

if thats your definition of a troll . that speaks to 98% of the posts on any forum. That cant be the definition of a troll.

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Quoting empire2008,

reply 117

--Snip--

if thats your definition of a troll . that speaks to 98% of the posts on any forum. That cant be the definition of a troll.

Note firstly that witnessing one of the traits that I mentioned does not necessarily make someone a troll. Mostly, it's when you start to see more of those traits in the same person.

Having said that, this particular forum has thankfully very few trolls, and so the atmosphere is generally more clement. As a result, it's easier to notice a dark cloud in a clearer sky.

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Quoting nickak2003,

reply 115

Sometimes teams fail because they have a lack of talent in the right areas. Gee, did stardock recently fire a shit ton of people that worked on elemental?

GEEEEEE. Yeah, I'm obviously a troll.

No, they let go of their second team that was supposed to work on other games, as I understand it.

Never let it be said that I accused you of being a troll

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Quoting nickak2003,

reply 116

Quoting Istari, reply 113

That's a little too naive. I don't think that conclusion can be drawn out of necessity from what you've read in those responses.

There are a few indications of when someone is trolling. Firstly, a troll is someone who isn't trying to be constructive or helpful in their criticism. Secondly, they tend to make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with any factual assertions. Thirdly, they are often unnecessarily harsh, insulting and offensive, when they could have gotten the same message across in a better way. Fourthly, trolls are seen to make statements of certainty about things that they have no expertise or professional/commercial experience in, and about things that are relative or not readily quantifiable. This also makes it easy to understand why Savyg has referred to it as idiocy.

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

Sorry, I'm not a fanboi from happy land. I know some people like consolding developers that post about their hardships in forums, and some people just cant wait for elemental 2 to kick ass, and some people love to pay to be beta testers. Sorry though, thats just not me. I respect our differences.

Being a fanboy or a hater (however you wish to define the two), or somewhere in between, does not preclude that your comments and opinions can be put forward in a way that is tactful, constructive, and with an inoffensive tone. Also, empathising with the developers does not preclude the desire to see the game improve, and soon.

Quoting nickak2003,

reply 115

Um, yeah - what I said is the bare naked truth about the game industry. I'm a professional and I can say that most of the junk about hard programming is a load of crap. There's something called a TEAM - it incudes programmers, managers, designers, all sorts of people.

Sometimes teams fail because they have a lack of talent in the right areas. Gee, did stardock recently fire a shit ton of people that worked on elemental?

GEEEEEE. Yeah, I'm obviously a troll.

A game like Elemental is not hard to program. Like *most* modern games, the hardest part is the content. Elemental was released as unfunctional, and with a severe lack of content. ( to compare, MoM had about 50x more content ).

What you said is the bare naked truth - as you see it. You have freedom of opinion.

Sometimes teams do fail because of a lack of talent, and that goes for any industry or project. However, when you say that this is the prevalent reason for PC games that are well below standard, it is coming across as a very weak assertion. This is partly because you have provided no convincing argument or evidence to support your claim, and partly because you have included Stardock in your group of developers who lack talent, and addressed this to a forum full of people who have immensely enjoyed their previous titles.

Neither have you properly addressed any of the contrary arguments that have been well detailed in this thread. Also, the way I understand it, Stardock let those people go due to the unfortunate consequences of Elemental's release. What is being debated here is whether or not the cause of those consequences was in part due to the current reality of the PC gaming industry, and so it doesn't follow by necessity that those people were fired for lack of talent.

Lastly, I have not seen it suggested that the difficulty associated with creating PC games like Elemental is in the programming or coding. The reasons being put forward are along the lines that the APIs are not thoroughly consistent in doing what they have been designed to do, and that the immense variation in PC builds is compounding that issue.

So, it should be fairly plain by now why you are seen to have come across as a troll.

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Quoting Istari,

reply 113

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

.......

Being a fanboy or a hater (however you wish to define the two), or somewhere in between, does not preclude that your comments and opinions can be put forward in a way that is tactful, constructive, and with an inoffensive tone.

Well, the problem is, not everyone is "political" or has a sales type background experience as a persuader/manipulator. Not all people are capable of communicating in the idealized sort of way you'd like them to.

I was in the Marine Corps & worked with all types of people in my lifetime, seen the whole spectrum of the scale. Workplaces where vulgarity is commonplace to workplaces where it's taboo. I've know drunk, belligerant, crude types that would fight at the drop of a dime yet give you the shirt off their back and political, tactful, educated, conceited, smiley-face types that shield a dagger behind their back while they screw you over with that same smile-on-their face & "politically correct" double-talk. I'll take the former over the latter anyday.

The point is, there's all kinds of people in the world with different personalities & communications styles, education, and training. And, my experience is that I'll take the harsh, tough, yet honest guys/gals over the smiley-faced political types who are liars & only interested in themselves in one way or another any day of the year. All we have to do is look at our governement today to see a plentiful supply of that crap type of shite. Forums just mimick reality, people in forums "communicate" the way they do in real life to some extent.

But, of course in a forum situation we have no way at all to know exactly what kind of people we have as far as factual info goes as to their professional background. We have to infer and read-between-the-lines with a "poker face" in order to figure it out... and it *is* possible to figure out, just like it is possible to determine a person's personality from their signature ... although I doubt anyone would care

Quoting Nicka2003,

reply 115

Um, yeah - what I said is the bare naked truth about the game industry. I'm a professional and I can say that most of the junk about hard programming is a load of crap. There's something called a TEAM - it incudes programmers, managers, designers, all sorts of people.

It seems to me that every other post by developers have pretty much concurred & asserted over & over again that it is "impossible" to meet hardware specifications on the back of the box given the wide range of hardware configs we have today. Since you say you're an industry professional, and I'll just assume that you are a professional dev, but I'm not, I'm just someone who likes strategy games, I just want to know:

1) If that assertion is true or not. If it it is true what's a resonable resource need to QA-test, say, both 70% and 90% of hardware configs in relationship to "minimum system reqs" for an average PC game.

2) Why won't PC game companies provide minimum specs that they *know* work, instead of a low-bar minimum that they know fail 90% of the time on minimum specs? (i.e. If a game can only be tested on windows 7, dual-core, 64 bit, 4GB RAM, systems using *only* video cards w,x,y,z .. why not just specialize the system requirements on the back of the box for this one configuration only)? Now, I can answer this just from the knowledge I've gained on my own in my lifetime & personal experience as it pertains to the greedy corporate shit companies that we have in the world today; I just want to know what the political "company line" answer is. And, I'm not talking about specific companies, just any "company line" in general will do. I'm just interested in knowing how PC companies rationalize their greed as it pertains to this one thing.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 114

It's been addressed. Computer games have become exponentially more and more difficult to create due to the increase in technology and the increase of diversity of systems. Back in the 80's, one guy could make a computer game in a number of weeks. And, I bet, if you wanted to make the exact same game now, it would a bit longer and suffer a little more bugs, simply because the difficulty of making it compatible with the plethora of different machines out there.

There are still one man/women games being developed, and a number of them actually work when they are released too, on a number of machines.

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Quoting Nesrie,

reply 122

There are still one man/women games being developed, and a number of them actually work when they are released too, on a number of machines.

It's considerably easier to do when your featureset is very basic. Though I don't agree with the entirety of his statement.

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Quoting cpl_rk,

reply 121

Quoting Istari, reply 113

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, but I do take issue with the tone and method of communication being used, even when I agree with what's being said.

Well, the problem is, not everyone is "political" or has a sales type background experience as a persuader/manipulator. I was in the Marine Corps & worked with all types of people in my lifetime, seen the whole spectrum of the scale. Workplaces where vulgarity is commonplace to workplaces where it's taboo. I've know drunk, belligerant, crude types that would fight at the drop of a dime yet give you the shirt off their back and political, tactful, educated, conceited, smiley-face types that shield a dagger behind their back while they screw you over with that same smile-on-their face & "politically correct" double-talk. I'll take the former over the latter anyday.

The point is, there's all kinds of people in the world with different personalities & communications styles, education, and training. And, my experience is that I'll take the harsh, tough, yet honest guys/gals over the smiley-faced political types who are liars & only interested in themselves in one way or another any day of the year. All we have to do is look at our governement today to see a plentiful supply of that crap type of shite. Forums just mimick reality, people are in forums "communicate" the way they do in real life to some extent.

But, of course in a forum situation we have no way at all to know exactly what kind of people we have as far as factual info goes. We have to read-between-the-lines with a "poker face" in order to figure it out... and it *is* possible to figure out, just like it is possible to determine a person's personality from their signature ... although I doubt anyone would care

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hates politics as much as I do, and don't get me started on the deceit and corruption of governments. While I do prefer harsh and honest over polite and double-dealing, ideally I like to see politeness and sincerity. In the case of nickak2003, his honesty has not been questioned, but it would probably serve him and everyone else better if he supported his claims and put his opinions forward in a way that sparks debate over the content rather than the tone.

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Quoting Nesrie,

reply 122

There are still one man/women games being developed, and a number of them actually work when they are released too, on a number of machines.

How hard would it be, for example, for someone with (say) a degree in CS, who otherwise never used it professionally for whatever reason, to create a game using something like this

http://unity3d.com/unity/

and shelling out for a good graphics suite like maya

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13577897

Let's say the potential dev is thinking that the unity platform will cover the cross-system & cross-platform "heavy lifting" and that maya would cover the graphics "heavy lifting," so that the potential dev could just focus mainly on the exact game design/coding (gameplay) and AI/coding (which will probably be the harder of the two). Let's say that the potential dev is not a "greedy" ass corp and would just list the specs on the back of the box for just the 3 or 4 configs he/she will actually test the game on?

What would be the difficulty factor & time frame for this potential dev to succeed? Say that his "school-only" CS experience level gives him/her a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 as far as software development knowledge goes.

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