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Explain this!

By on March 19, 2009 11:04:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Agent of Kh...

Join Date 02/2008
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I was just playing multiplayer as vasari.  I built up and attacked an advent homeworld.  I had 28 assailants, with all first tech level hull and missle upgrades, plus the egg.  I jumped into this cat's well, and he jumps in with less than half my assailant count in illuminators, plus 3 drone hosts which later became 4, plus a mothership.

Now, this battle lasted about 10 seconds.  As soon as he jumped in I saw he was gonna FF my cap with his illums so i instantly pulled it.  Sure enough, he was hitting my cap as expected while it was running to the edge.  I scrolled out to right click on a planet with my cap.  I scrolled back in.  My cap jumped out okay, and ALL MY ASSAILANTS WERE GONE.  ALL 28.

I asked him what kind of hacked program he was using to make 28 assailants disappear in the time it took me to scroll out, right click on a planet, and scroll back in.  He said he wasn't using one.  He said, and I quote, "Advent owns vasari.  Always have."  I said "Yeah bullshit, it has nothing to do with advent owning vasari.  What took out 28 assailants in less than 10 seconds?"  He said his illums did.  I said "bullshit" again, and quit.

The replay showed that it was essentially the fighters from 4 drone hosts which wiped out all my assailants, plus he caught the assailants with a mothership malice.  10 FREAKING SECONDS.  Now, I've played pros before, some of the best in the game.  I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER had even a pro do anything like evaporate 28 assailants in 10 seconds with the fleet I just described.  Not even close.

I know fighers counter assailants.  But don't give me that crap.  It was 4 freaking drone hosts, and 10 FREAKING SECONDS.  So what was this?  A hacked game?  A bug?  A weird desync?

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March 19, 2009 11:40:33 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay I've never figured out how to upload screenshots to this forum, but here's a screenshot I made and put on the web.  This is my cap pulling.  Trust me, that's 28 assailants (purple).  About 10 seconds later, everything is gone.

http://www.wegame.com/view/28_assailants_evaporate_3/

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March 20, 2009 12:45:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

14 Illums x 3 beams per Illum=462 dmg + 4 Drones x 3 fighters each=216 dmg + a Progenitor cast Malice causing minimum 30% damage propagation (and not counting damage being caused by progenitor itself= 881.4 per second

Hmm... not sure.....

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March 20, 2009 1:13:16 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ten seconds are very long time.

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March 20, 2009 1:33:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It makes no sense to me how those 28 assailants died so fast :/.

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March 20, 2009 1:48:09 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In the picture you have 16. So either you miscoutned, or half of your 28 already died by this time.  My money is on you had bad judgement of time.  I could wipe your fleet way faster than that guy, for one thing he didnt micro his fighters or assailants, but I know it would take more than 10 seconds.  Your fleet was entirely inadequate to fight him, by jumping in you lost automatically.

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March 20, 2009 2:34:41 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In the picture you have 16. So either you miscoutned, or half of your 28 already died by this time.

It was 28 - I watched the replay 3 times, so with that particular pic they were already down to 16.  I can post one with all 28 shown if you don't believe me.

Your fleet was entirely inadequate to fight him, by jumping in you lost automatically.

If that's really the case, then I no longer want to play this game.  I'm tired of the BS, the crazy imbalances, the inexplicable losses, etc.  If jumping into a mothership, a couple of drone hosts, and half as many illums was an "automatic loss" - a slaughter, in fact - then you guys have fun with it.  I'm out.

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March 20, 2009 3:47:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You should find a free site to post replays if you want people to analyze what happened.  I use sendspace ..I have seen people use fileden.  You just go to the directory where the replays are saved and upload it to one of these, then give the link.

 

That said, this guy had 4 carriers which are the hard counter.  He also must have had more than 14 Illuminators...I see an Illuminator blowing up in this picture, so assuming your assailants were shooting at them, I am guess he had over half as many Illuminators as you had assailants to begin with.  Illuminators are also more powerful than Assailants.  So his force was a bit more powerful than yours in general, but also was made up by about 1/3 of a hard counter to assailants, namely the fighters, so you were at a disadvantage.

Now, 28 Assailants is nothing to sniff at if they have phase missile upgrades.  If you had Nano bombed the Progen and all the Assailants had targetted it, you should have killed it while taking heavy losses.  Maybe your cap would escape...maybe not, since it seems like there were more Illuminators to begin with.

As it stands, you kill some Illuminators...probably hampered by shield regen from the Progen, and when it was clear your capital had escaped, he cycled malice a couple times on the remaining 14 Assailants (the others were picked off by fighters by now) ... those remaining 14 probably did "evaporate" under the combined influence of the Illuminators, fighters, and Malice.

Watch the replay...see what upgrades are on the Progen...was Malice fully upgraded?  Was he keeping his forces alive with shield restore?  Did he have hull and beam upgrades on his Illums?  Did you have upgrades on your Assailants?  

Vasari does just fine fighting Advent, but this just sounds like a case where you were fighting against a counter unit, a superior force, and you didn't bring your capship to bear for fear of losing it while he made full use of his capship.

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March 20, 2009 6:09:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I know you are angry and I dont want to put oil on the fire. With that said, I dont think the other guy cheated.

I looked carefully at your screenshots and by the time your egg jumped, you were already down to 16 assailants.

The other guy had 1 Mothership + 14 Illuminators + 13 Fighter Squadrons.

Thats a lot of firepower.

Illuminators are good vs. Light armor (100% damage) and fighters are very good vs. light armor (200% damage).

Your assailants were already damaged by the Illuminators/Fighters/Malice.

If you look at the screenshots, you can see that the sidebeams of the Illuminators were already damaging your Assailants when he was focus firing your egg. He had more then enough firepower to take care of those 16 already damaged Assailants.

His fleet was far superior to yours in every way, even if you had equal fleet supplies.

Your fleet: 1 cap + 28 assailants = 218

His fleet: 1 cap + 14 illum + 4 drone host = 214

Illuminators are more powerful than Assailants, capable of damaging multiple target at the same time.

The only solution to this problem (and I really HATE to say this) spam carriers. Skirmishers are not the answer (Illuminators do 150% damage vs. Skirmishers) & Assailants are no match for fighters.

You needed a swarm of fighters to take care of his fleet. Anything else would have been futile. Fighters only to 50% damage vs carriers and Illuminators do 75% damage, so carriers with fighters was the answer for this scenario.

Like Cykur said, one other solution would have been to focus fire his capital ship with your entire fleet, but you would have lost a LOT of ships doing so. He had the right counter (fighters) to take care of your Assailants.

I dont want you to be angry about what I said, but you wanted someone to "explain this".

If its any comfort, you are not the only one with this problem, I have seen other people on this forum claiming to having trouble countering this Drone Host/Illuminator combination in the early stages of the game.

Well, I really hope you will not quit playing. I like reading some of your posts (even if I sometime disagree with what you say).

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March 20, 2009 11:06:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think we all have WTF just happened moments with this game. And I mean WTF as in NO WAY THAT JUST HAPPENED. I was just playing single player against Advent and I had the fleet cornered in an astroid and I had destroyed all structures in the connected homeworld. The fleet was at the roid and I sent everything I had at them. They wiped me out. I reload my save, upped my fleet and sent them in again. They wiped me out again. I was fuming mad!!! HA HA I have to laugh at it. I was so mad I deleted all saved games, replays, everything.

You're doing the right thing. You're reviewing your replays. Hang in there!

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March 20, 2009 11:22:56 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

sometimes the best offence is a good defence, at least till you upgrade your ships enough that you know they are the best ships out there,  if you let your enemy get the tech advantage, more ships just means more for your enemy to kill.  Also it always helps to have repair abilitys in your fleets, i never leave home with out it. 

As for how fast your ships were taken out, wow, not even starbases with full figher support could have done that in 10 seconds, 20-30 secs, yeah, but in the time it took for you to scroll out then back in.... i dont see it happening.

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March 20, 2009 11:36:35 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

This story reminds me of a multiplayer game I played once in Homeworld.  Some guy decided it would be a good idea to attack my fleet with fighters.  Unfortunatly for him, 1/3 of my fleet consisted of anti-fighter frigates. 

 

He quit on me after he wondered why all his fighters were gone within 10 seconds and accused me of cheating

 

Sounds like you are Porkins... and you fought Grand Admiral Thrawn.

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March 20, 2009 12:26:21 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I don't know how long you've been playing multi-player, Agen of Kharma, but I just started this week.  Let me tell you, I get my own entrails fed to me every time!   I just finished a 1 vs 1 game last night where I had more planets, better income rate, higher fleet score, decent research, AND I STILL LOST!  ANd yeay, this guy was Advent as well.  Ah, well, eventually I'll get better, though it did take a couple of hours for him to finally finish me off.  Just keep trying; I hope to see you on sometime.

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March 20, 2009 4:11:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

That said, this guy had 4 carriers which are the hard counter.

Sure, I've always known that carriers and fighters were OP.  But we aren't talking about 10 or 15 carriers evaporating 28 assailants in seconds, we are talking 3 or 4 carriers (the fouth one showed up later - it wasn't even there most of the time).  If you say "that's still enough to pull off that kind of slaughter," then carriers and fighters are 10 times more OP than even I ever thought they were.  Basically, they are uber-OP.  What other "hard counter" in the game can evaporate the thing it is countering in seconds, when outnumbered by it 7 times over?  If I had brought in 28 skirmishers, and if those 4 drone hosts were illums instead (the hard counter), would the skirmishers have evaporated as fast?  Answer:  NO.

Now, 28 Assailants is nothing to sniff at if they have phase missile upgrades. If you had Nano bombed the Progen and all the Assailants had targetted it, you should have killed it while taking heavy losses. Maybe your cap would escape...maybe not....

Sure, it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.  You see, I actually try to learn lessons in this game, to no avail.  I thought I had learned the lesson that when there is enough lrm present to focus and take down your cap, to just go ahead and pull it instead of losing it.  So that's what I did.  Yet somehow, that was wrong.

Watch the replay...see what upgrades are on the Progen...was Malice fully upgraded? Was he keeping his forces alive with shield restore?

Level 5 mothership, and the only thing he did was chain malice - no shield restore (who doesn't use shield restore on the mothership???).  He wasn't micro'ing anything, you see (which adds insult to injury).  The malice was autocasting.  I mean, the full extent of the dude's micro was grabbing all his illums and right-clicking my cap.  That's it.  Other than that, he just sat there and picked his nose, watching the fireworks.  Yet I lost.  I had most of the map (double his planets), and I was number one in everything in the game, including econ.  He was essentially playing like a newb.  But I lost.

Did you have upgrades on your Assailants?

As previously stated, I had all tier 1 hull and phase missle upgrades possible (2 of each).

I think we all have WTF just happened moments with this game. And I mean WTF as in NO WAY THAT JUST HAPPENED.

It happens to me all of the time with this game (NO OTHER GAME).  Even worse, it will happen when playing against an utter newb who by all measures should be utterly crushed (and in fact IS being crushed), but one slip on a bannana peel and it's YOU who are crushed.

I've been playing strategy games since before Starcraft.  I've always played at "pro" or "skilled" level with all the others I've played.  Not this one, no matter how many games I play, no matter how many lessons I try to learn and apply.  This game was weirdly balanced for me even from the outset (with the super siege frig, etc), and to this day I have yet to wrap my mind around it's odd play dynamics, weird non/counter-intuitive balances, underlying game philosophy, etc.  Oddly enough, while billing itself with an emphasis on grand strategy, it seems to rely even more on tactical play than other strategy games I've played.

Bottom line is, I can get damn good at other strategy games with reasonable amounts of time and energy put into them.  Furthermore, things are "explicable" in the other strategy games, and "make sense," even when I lose.  But I think I could play this game from now until doomsday and never be good at it.  So I'm guessing I should go off and play an old Total War while waiting for SCII, and see if I do any better at that one.

Before I do that, my parting shot:  NERF THE HELL OUT OF FIGHTERS.

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March 20, 2009 4:31:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Obviously from your post I can only gather you have no idea about strategy of this game.  That's ok, pull up a chair and listen. 

Fighters are not OP.  They counter Assailants.  You made a force of only 1 kind of ship, assailant.  Now maybe you feel you should be successful at spamming just 1 kind of ship, but that's not how this game works.  There is a lotmore strategy involved than spamming nothing but Assailants.  Assailant spam may kill inexperienced player who has not scouted before hand.  But when you run into a competent opponent who has see you mass assailants, well this is what you will get.  So crying foul like an angry little kid because your spam failed is really not the best way to go about this situation.  Take it as a learning experience.

What you should have done is use carriers for cover of your assailants and to kill his illuminators.  Or if this was entrenchment game, you could have built flak and sent them in first to kill lot of the fighters, so your assailants would be safe.In entrenhcment they would not be able to rebuild them to pose enough of a threat to your assailants.  However illuminators vs assailants is not a best match, but you had numbers on your side.

Also this seems to be a fight at his home is it? I would not attack an enemy on their home turf if I did not have good advantage in force, at least 50%.  In this case your opponent had 50% more force than you.  simply put 12 fighters is pretty equivelent to 24 assailants, so all his illuminators are just extra on top of that, as his fighters can easily match your assailants.

As far as others mentioned, skirmishers can kill carriers, but I would not use Assailants + skirmishers in this situation.  You would need carrier + skirmisher, and use fighters to kill illuminators, otherwsie your skirmishers are toast.  Biggest problem with skirmishers is the dps/fleet supply.  Their damage is just low even with +20%.  It only becomes on par witht he toehr races if you get +20% and +20% from culture, which in an average game is not easily attainable.  I will however field them if I can provide enough fighters as to limit enemy long range frigates.

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March 20, 2009 5:12:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I personnaly would not be against a slight nerf to fighters.

They are "free" to a certain degree.

They are the fastest ships in the game (2700 if my memory serves me correctly).

They can easily SWARM any target, anywhere in the gravity well.

They are only countered by Anti-Strikeraft Frigates, other Fighters & some Capital Ship abilities.

They are immune to all other types of damage.

They have no collision detection.

They are the most versalite units in the game; dealing 100% damage vs Fighters & 200% vs:

Long Range Frigates, Siege Frigates, Scout Frigates, Colony Frigates, Bomber Squadrons and Anti-Structure Cruisers.

No other type of ships can be has versatile as fighters.

When they are spammed in large numbers, their power becomes exponential, making them the most dangerous unit in the entire game.

If I had to recommend a nerf, I would go with a drop from 200% damage vs. light armor to 175%.

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March 20, 2009 5:33:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There is really no big mystery here....the remaining assailants had level 3 Malice cycling on them while being shot at by the other ships and fighters.  Malice causes AoE damage propagation.  Therefore they all melted once your capital was not around.

You either had to take that fleet head on and try to kill their Progen while taking heavy losses, or get your whole fleet out and fight defensively until you had better odds and fleet composition.

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March 20, 2009 5:36:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

First of all carriers were nerfed, this includes fighters, as they can't rebuild their fighters fast.  Secondly flak frigates were buffed, if you don't use flak frigates to combat fighters, then that is your problem.  With flak, carriers become giant bricks that cost money, use up fleet supply, and feed a steady stream of XP to your opponent capital ship.  How can you even consider nerfing this?

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March 20, 2009 5:39:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lol just post replay, and all will be pretty clear.

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March 20, 2009 5:56:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Fighters are not OP. They counter Assailants.

I didn't dispute that.  I merely questioned the bizzarity of balancing a game such that 3 or 4 carriers can evaporate 28 assailants in seconds.  3 or 4 lrm won't evaporate 28 lf in seconds.  3 or 4 flak won't evaporate 28 fighter squadrons in seconds.  Apparently, only carriers have that power.

I've played Cykur many times.  His carriers will annihilate my assailants for sure.  But at least he has 12, 15, or 20 carriers doing the annihilating, so I don't complain, I just lose.  But 3 or 4???

In any normal strategy game, if your units are countered, there is some "grace time" you have to get out of the situation before you lose everything.  Let's take a game everyone is familiar with - Starcraft.  Say you do a mutalisk spam, and you fly them over the protoss base and realize "oh shit, he has tons of photon cannons up!"  Do all of your mutalisks evaporate in seconds?  Answer:  NO.  You simply grab all your mutalisks, and pull them.  Did you lose a couple?  Sure, perhaps.  But the whole force, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS FULLY COUNTERED, did not evaporate before you could pull it.

You made a force of only 1 kind of ship, assailant. Now maybe you feel you should be successful at spamming just 1 kind of ship, but that's not how this game works.

Boy, you act as if this was somehow by choice, as if I had a choice to do anything else but "spam" assailants in the opening rounds of this game.  But we all have hard choices to make, now don't we (at least I do)?  If I could have waved a magic wand, I would have had 100 enforcers, 100 transporters, 100 subverters, a starbase building in his grav well, and 1 of every kind of capship.  But there was no magic wand.  I chose to take as many planets as I could take as quickly as possible, which is what I did.  Those assailants allowed me to do that.  I also chose to eco.  Something had to give somewhere, and the thing that "gave" was I had only 1 kind of unit available at that juncture.  If you say this was some kind of blasphemy, then sue me, and you must be right - I have no idea about the strategy of this game.

There is a lotmore strategy involved than spamming nothing but Assailants.

Really!  I didn't know!

Assailant spam may kill inexperienced player who has not scouted before hand.

1) He didn't scout me beforehand.  He didn't know what I had.  He just cookie-cutter spammed carriers and illums, just like you say I spammed assailants, but at least I spammed assailants for a reason: they are easily available tier 1 units that allowed me to clear multiple desert and terran worlds and take them quickly.

2) I had no expectations of killing him.  My expectation was to be able to turn around and get most of my fleet out before it was evaporated in seconds.

And by the way, yes I scouted his homeworld before I jumped there.  His fleet wasn't there.  It came after I arrived.  My goal was simply to jump in and stir up a little trouble.

But when you run into a competent opponent who has see you mass assailants, well this is what you will get.

You apparently didn't get the point of my post.  I'm not asking that mass assailant spam win the game for anyone.  But is it too much to ask that 3 or 4 carriers not annihilate 28 assailants before you can even turn them around and get them out of the grav well?  If it is too much to ask, then I again plead guilty.

And no, my opponent was neither competent, nor did he see me mass anything.  He was doing his own thing, irrespective of what I did.  He was essentially a newb.

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March 20, 2009 6:15:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You act like 12 fighters is not a lot.  Like I said in my post because they are coutner to assailants you can count them as equivelent to 24 assailants.  They can anhialate assailants, that's their job. On top of those your opponent also had dozen Illumiantors, he easily had 50% more effective firepower than you.  In such a case you will get blown away.

Yes there are other things that you can do with Vasari that don't involve blindly spamming assailants. In fact spamming assailants is probably the most suicidal thing you can do if you don't know what you opponent has.  For all you know he could have gone all carrier and slaughter you even faster.

And even if your opponent did not scout you, he chose a fleet composition that was much more versitile.  He beat you, and he beat you good, he was competent by every definition of the word.

Now instead of admitting you made a mistake charging into the enemy, you instead attack the game.  And then you attack everyone who tries to help you understand why you made a mistake. 

Like Cykur said, only thing to be done asaide from blindly trying to kill his cap ship (which I wouldn't do) would be to retreat right away.

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March 20, 2009 6:28:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You act like 12 fighters is not a lot. Like I said in my post because they are coutner to assailants you can count them as equivelent to 24 assailants. They can anhialate assailants, that's their job.

Fine!  I want them to annihilate assailants!  BUT IN SECONDS?!?!!?

Now instead of admitting you made a mistake charging into the enemy....

Charging into the enemy?  My God man, do you even read what I write?  I had taken the planet 1 jump away from his home planet.  He didn't have anything at his home planet because I looked.  I jumped in, and then he jumped in from another phase lane.  Then I simply tried to get out.  Now, does that sound like I mindlessly "charged into the enemy?"

And then you attack everyone who tries to help you understand why you made a mistake.

I haven't attacked anyone!  I asked one simple question, which still hasn't been answered.  Should that few carriers, massively outnumbered, be able to annihilate the thing they counter that quickly?  If your answer is "yes," then fine!  No attack from me, I'll just move on!

Like Cykur said, only thing to be done asaide from blindly trying to kill his cap ship (which I wouldn't do) would be to retreat right away.

I'll say it again:  You didn't read a thing I wrote.  I DID TRY TO RETREAT RIGHT AWAY.  THAT'S THE POINT!

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March 20, 2009 6:31:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Malice is a really nice/nasty ability when it's used correctly. I've destroyed 30+ Disciple frigates(+ various other frigates that were in range) in ten seconds(probably more) with a malice/cleansing brilliance combo.

I have no doubt in my mind that what happened to you was NOT cheating. That was actually a brilliant move on the other player's part, to be honest.

My advice to countering this is keep at a distance out of malice's reach directly in front of them(to avoid the port and starboard beams of the Iluminators. Take out the Mothersip early. Have a Kortul to jam fighters or anti-strikecraft frigates. Use the charged missile ability of your LRFs and anti-fighters to stay out of reach. Unforunately, the charged missile ability is kinda made obsolete by high tier beam research which extends beam range.

I do as much research as possible in the early game and I'm a defensive fighter: I like to fight on my turf. I don't know your tactics so I can't really say much. Also, I don't know many counters: I'm a TEC/Advent player, but hopefully I provide you with some assistance.

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March 20, 2009 7:08:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I dobut you retreated right away.  Present the replay, if it is in 1.02, but it is probably 1.01.  You claim you died in seconds, but that is certailny not true. I am as sure of it as I can be without replay.  It would take few mintues to kill your force. Even with Malice I don't see it taking less than 3 minutes, he was not microing the fighters.

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March 20, 2009 7:29:27 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

28 assailents against 10 illummys would be tough

illummys are just a bit better than assailents and lrms and if microed right 10 illumys sudenly become 20 illummys

and before you complain about the illummys being better its cuz illummys are tier three and assailents are tier one

add the fighters from the carriers and it be rather difficult to win

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March 20, 2009 8:16:29 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I dobut you retreated right away. Present the replay, if it is in 1.02, but it is probably 1.01. You claim you died in seconds, but that is certailny not true... It would take few mintues to kill your force. Even with Malice I don't see it taking less than 3 minutes, he was not microing the fighters.

Okay, then I will present the replay, and you will see it wasn't "minutes" (certainly not 3 minutes).  But since my credibiity is being called into question, I will not present the replay without a bet from you first, and a way to secure such a bet.

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