Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Brad's BETA 2 Bug / Suggestion List

For those of you who are new to Stardock beta programs, we will often post in our own forums the bugs and suggestions we have on the games to let other users discuss them. This was done with GalCiv and Sins of a Solar Empire with very good effect.

Below are some of the bugs / suggestions I (personally) ran into with ideas I think would help the game without making radical changes. I'm speaking only for myself, not Stardock here so feel free to debate/discuss as you see fit.

1. Lobby needs a chat area that lists players and chat messages.

2. Selecting hero UI issue (known).

3. New Game Option: All flags start out neutral.

4. New Game Option: War Ranking pacing (slow, medium, fast). Determines how quickly the war ranks progress. (already in)

5. New Game Option: Flag Power (low, medium, high). Determines the amount flags will effect the game.

6. New Game Option: Leveling (Epic, Normal, Hyper). Determines how much XP you need to go up a level. Already in

6a. New Game Option: Starting Reinforcements (2, 4, 8). Determines how many creeps come out of the portal at the start.

6b. New Game Option: Minion base Armor (Light, Medium, Heavy). Determines how tough the creeps are. (already in)

7. Flags need descriptions (known).

8. Clicking on an opposing Demigod should show what they are equipped with.

9. Selection issues (known)

10. Minions of generals should not give out XP when they are killed.

11. Minions of generals should have 2X as many HP for starters.

12. Minions should move as fast as the general (if general is moving fast, so do the minions).

13. Reinforcements from neutral portals should do 4X damage to structures as they currently do.

13a. Alternatively, eliminate neutral portals and replace with flags that affect gameplay.

14. All arenas should have at least 1 flag of experience that causes that team's Demigods to get XP at 3X the normal rate when it's captured.

15. Creeps that your Demigod (or minions) get the last hit on prove bonus gold to that player.

16. There should be very expensive items that allow the Demigod to do 4X damage to structures.

16a. AI should be careful about following a weakened enemy too far to avoid being led to its doom.

17. Wish List

a. Move the Favor Item to the left side and provide 2 more item slots.

b. New Item: Demolitions. Does N points of damage to a structure, is consumed.

c. New Item: Wand of Denial. Cast on friendly creeps that causes those creeps to not provide any XP to the enemy when killed. 30 second cool down.

d. New Item: Want of Learning. Cast on Enemy Creeps, doubles the XP they provide when killed.

e. New Items: Various anti-stun items that reduce stun times or have a chance of avoiding stun entirely.

f. New Item: Ring of Reflection: When activated, causes all missile damage to bounce back at enemy for 20% damage while leaving player unharmed. Lasts 5 seconds, 30 second cool down.

g. New Items: Items that reduce cool downs of abilities and summonings.

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3: They should imo

5: Smart choice

6: Agreed

8: No, should have to figure out your own stuff

10: Of course they should, they can't be summoned enough to cheat with. And they are more tough.

11: Havnt played enough, but they should be more tough imo, 1 Tower hit takes out all my Minatours

12: Agreed. Maybe slower generals should get tougher minions? Slower and tougher, Faster but weaker? Just another pro/con.

13: Disagree, especially because they dont have any mobs to compete against. They just go against open towers and such, so they do enough damage as is.

13a: I'm not a huge fan of the Neutral Portals, but I think they add flavor. So I'm pretty neutral myself on this one.

14: Disagree

15: Disagree, its a team game.

16: Need something to move stalemate matches (Trust me, matches that last hours get tedious)

17c: This could prove annoying, as later in the game you have enough money, a Demigod could cast that on every mob, and I could see it has a (Sorry for my word usage) elitest strategy. Could prove making a match very annoying.

17e: Nothing should be able to permently avoid stun, maybe a consumable with a high chance to avoid stun.

17f: Needs longer cooldown

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3. Game options are always a good idea, just make sure that the defaults are the usually played and expected options. Your current game browser is really lacking and I would hate to join a game just to find out every option is tweaked and that I have to go find something else.

8. Yes please.

10 & 11 & 12. I'd rather see more work done on the Generals, than their minions, but these are some steps in the right direction, especially the HP increase and MS increase.

13a. I really dislike this idea.

14. I think a 3X XP boost is a bit much - I'd make it 1.5X or 2X at most.

15. As a DotA player, please god no. They're phasing last hitting out of DotA, and staring at creeps HP bars is just awful and boring. People think it adds a level of skill, but all it does is add tedium. The focus should always be on the opposing heros.

16. I suppose this is a good idea, but maybe have it be time-unlocked and not just cost. Otherwise I could see a huge strategy be saving gold for just this item and dive bombing towers just to smash them in a few swipes.

17. Wish List

a. Sure. More options is better.

c. New Item: Wand of Denial. God no, don't slow the game down or provide an item that becomes a must have for every member of every team.

d. New Item: Want of Learning. Opposite of the above and still, IMO, a really bad idea. You don't want a single item that every hero has to buy to stay competitive.

e. New Items: Either tie stun-avoidance into Evade or abandon it all together. Having items out there that are hard counters to a few heros is bad game design.

f. New Item: Ring of Reflection: Sounds like an anti-Regulus item, don't put in items to counter him, balance him.

g. New Items: Sure.

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4. already in

5. sounds good

6. already in

6b. already in

10. General Minions already don't give XP

11. I think they are already too strong in the early game, but need a better scaling towards the endgame (higher level idols need a buff and probably a cost increase)

12. agree

13. what about neutral portals just spawn mainly siege units, giving them 4x damage seems a bit artificial and how can you distinguish a 4x damage minotaur from a normal one. But yeah the neutral portals need to give more pushing capability and need to be less of free money/xp for the enemy

14. 3x? that would mean the game only centers around that flag then.

15. Problem here is that some demigod possess a much higher capability to kill targets, especially torchbearer. It could also be restricted to non-spell kills but that would be illogical; imo demigods micro should mainly resolve around focusing fire while preventing overkills but I'd like to see a few more skills like oaks "heal allies" skill which triggers when oak last-hits someone

16. You can already destroy a citadel in about 20 seconds with a level 25 Demigod.

17 a to f) Agree 1 or 2 more item slots would be cool especially if we get more useful active items.

17g. already in

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

11. Yea, late game they don't scale up. So minions need something that lets them get tougher. Perhaps have them level up with the Demigod.

13. I like that. So rather than having the neutral portals just spawn the weak creeps, they spawn siege creeps.

14. I think that if you don't control the map, the game should be over.

15. Withdrawn.

16. Level 25 Demigods should be rare. A game shouldn't last more than 30 minutes typically unless both sides are very evenly matched.

17g. I meant more items.

Mainly, games last way way too long making the game not enough fun. We need features that allow a team of skilled players to win in a short amount of time.

Right now, it seems like games take way too long without the player having much control over that.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Updated based on feedback. More to come. This is why we do these publicly, get good feedback.

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17b. I'd love to see that as an added option on the Universal Gadget. That item is incredibly cool, it'd be used more if it had some more uses. It is after all, a universal gadget.

8. Demigod seems a little too fast paced for this - and giving that information to every player might lead to people checking enemy equipment, selling all theirs and gearing specifically to counter the former player. Observing how a Demigod behaves should be enough clue to figure out what he's going for, equipment wise.

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14. True, but giving too much weight on a single position of the map (the 3x experience flag) it renders map control in the traditional sense pretty useless, its more like king of the hill/flag then. I do agree that flags in general need to a bit stronger though.

Mainly, games last way way too long making the game not enough fun. We need features that allow a team of skilled players to win in a short amount of time.

Right now, it seems like games take way too long without the player having much control over that.

totally agree there. I think main reasons for that is that additional creeps must be bought which not only costs gold but gives your opponent an advantage (more money and xp) and those creeps don't actually do enough do push the enemy fortifications. Especially not the additional minos and archers which are gifts for your enemies, the priests re somewhat useful. But usually currently buying creeps is only worth at the end of the game if you can get all of them at once. If those creeps would spawn automatically with higher war ranks as they used to in earlier version an advantage would give you a lot earlier in the game the capability to destroy enemy buildings. In the last beta1 build you could end games in 10-15 minutes because you could push together with the creeps (and towers were weaker but I prefer the stronger towers to be honest)

Additionally adding a slightly higher death penalty (maybe reduced experience gain for the first 90 seconds after a demigod is respawned) and a bit stronger flag bonuses should reduce the game length down to 10-15 minutes vs weaker enemies and max 30-40 vs equally skilled enemies.

8. Clicking on an opposing Demigod should show what they are equipped with.

I'm split on that one. Many like it but it reduces lots of the psychological elements, I always hated that in warcraft III. I think it would make sense if the armor items are shown but the consumables are hidden so you don't know if he has that nasty universal gadget to finish you of or not and you can either decide to risk getting killed by it or decide to be on the sure side and retreat early enough.

Also it should show the hp of the enemy in numbers somewhere, I personally would prefer if it doesn't show the mana, bluffing with low on energy casters was always fun in starcraft and I think bluffing with Demigods which are low on energy would be fun as well.

An item which shows enemy mana would be great though, maybe a consumable "potion of seeing" which let you see cloaked stuff (mines, observer wards - if they are currently cloaked not sure about it, but they definitely should be) and also let you see the mana and items of the enemy for some time.

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Quoting TheBigOne,

reply 7

Agreed. I'd like map control to be more important, but I'm not sure that putting a single uber-important flag on the map is the way to do it.

Quoting TheBigOne,

reply 7

Right now, it seems like games take way too long without the player having much control over that.
totally agree there. I think main reasons for that is that additional creeps must be bought which not only costs gold but gives your opponent an advantage (more money and xp) and those creeps don't actually do enough do push the enemy fortifications. Especially not the additional minos and archers which are gifts for your enemies, the priests re somewhat useful. But usually currently buying creeps is only worth at the end of the game if you can get all of them at once. If those creeps would spawn automatically with higher war ranks as they used to in earlier version an advantage would give you a lot earlier in the game the capability to destroy enemy buildings. In the last beta1 build you could end games in 10-15 minutes because you could push together with the creeps (and towers were weaker but I prefer the stronger towers to be honest)

Indeed. It seems like a good strategy right now is to gather as much money as you can while focusing on your hero for most of the game. Kill enemy grunts, kill opposing demigods when possible and stay away from their defenses. Then, once you've gotten to a sufficiently high war rank, go and buy all the grunt (creep) upgrades at once and push through the enemy defenses. The fact that this is a viable strategy lengthens games and makes the citidel upgrades less interesting.

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Also, the interface really needs to be improved to allow for a more RTS-like style of play. That's just not possible now.

Quoting TheBigOne,

reply 7

I agree. If I might ask, what exactly levels up the war ranks of the citadel?

Also, as I expressed elsewhere, I personally believe that upgrades and/or logistics should be more tied to capturing map objectives in order to allow for a definite shift in momentum to one side or the other that's tide to the actual field of battle itself, but I suppose that's what some of the suggestions are aiming at...

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The fact that the stronger army units don't spawn at the moment is a bug I think - and having catapultasaurii spawn on their will make games shorter.

If I might ask, what exactly levels up the war ranks of the citadel?

Time at the moment. War Rank grows in a linear fashion, equally for both teams. Probably not optimal. (and a UI indicator for War Rank would be really nice)

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Quoting DatonKallandor,

reply 10

Time at the moment. War Rank grows in a linear fashion, equally for both teams. Probably not optimal. (and a UI indicator for War Rank would be really nice)

I see. Maybe its experience could be tied to map flags...?

Also, since Daton said in another thread that this idea is "actually really brilliant"....

Quoting scyldSCHEFING,

reply 4

Alternatively, the relative amount of gold from mines vs. the amount of gold from bounties could be map dependant, so some maps are more Diablo style, and some are more RTS style.

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War Rank was (kind of) tied to flags in Beta 1 - with a flag that simply increased War Rank by 1 for the side holding it. I think the most important thing to do about War Rank right now is to uncouple the War Ranks of Light and Dark. Having both sides always go up at the same time makes it rather pointless - since both sides will always be able to spawn the same amount of troops.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Or maybe war rank could be tied to something other than the clock. I like that.

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maybe war rank goes up after, say, 1000 points. creeps give 1 point per kill and demigods 10?

or maybe you get a point every second for each flag under your control?

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Maybe the flags should scale per the map. Say a smaller more King of the Hill map might have 1 experience flag with x3 or x4 xp. While a larger map might have 2 1.5X xp maps, and with both of them, thats 3x XP.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 13

Or maybe war rank could be tied to something other than the clock. I like that.

Quoting Klaleara,

reply 15

Yeah. Again, it comes down to momentum never shifting definitively to either side until maybe the very, very end. That also has much to do with why games take soooo loooooong (in addition to defenses being a bit too strong relative to offense).

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There would have to be some automatic War Rank build though - someone modeled those Giants, we want to see them more often. Plus, the moment Catapultasaurii (love that word) hit the field stalemates break.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

Quoting DatonKallandor,

reply 17

Simply making a Flag that increases War Rank the same way a goldmine increases gold would be an easy variant. Then both sides have something to fight over, that will give a real advantage that isn't instant, but builds the longer you can hold the flag.

There would have to be some automatic War Rank build though - someone modeled those Giants, we want to see them more often. Plus, the moment Catapultasaurii (love that word) hit the field stalemates break.

I really like this.

I think we all agree that we don't want some particular flag to be overpowering. But I know I want victory to come from mroe than just tactical skill. I'm not very good at tactics but I am pretty good at strategy.

I want games to last somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour. I think the two best ways to do that is to have a flag that increases XP and a flag that increase the war rank progression.

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Maybe something like 4 flags dedicated to the war rank upgrade :

- 2 in bases, near the citadel itself (so if a team lost the 2 neutral ones, it can continue to evolve, but slowly). Not needed if an "basic upgrade rate" is set.

- 2 in opposites places (2 points in the map, like the neutral portals in Leviathan). They ll be strategical points, but not in the main creep path. Players ll have to choose helping creeps or defending this flag. Another good point is the very long travel between them (without port item). You can pushback the demigods with your team without seeing the whole ennemy's team to come to help him (Sorry for my bad english, i hope someone can understand = / )

I'm thinking of something : how to use these flags once war rank is 10 ... Maybe a bonus to creeps number (like +1 for sieges for each flags your team controls).

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... and a flag that increase the war rank progression.

In our internal builds, flags grant War Score income, which is used to purchase Citadel Upgrades instead of gold.

What do you all think of War Rank being based off your teams cumulative earned War Score? It'd be independent for each team, increase the rate of available upgrades and increase the strategy related to flags.

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Wouldn't that mean that every time you unlocked a certain war rank, you'd have a set number of points to spend since your spendable points and rank are both based on the same score? I guess its not really a problem, but I feel like the rank and how much you've accumulated to spend on upgrades should be independent.

but maybe that's just me.

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War Score income sounds good, what about making it an option in the game set up? Also if War Score is used, demigod kills should increase it. As experianced players will kill inexperianced players much more often, the experianced players would get a lot more War Score. Bonus war score could be given for killing sprees. That means a higher war rank which in turn means a quicker game. By giving War Score for both flags and demigod kills, games with a large skill difference between the teams will be very quick.

Finally, it might be interesting to have one or two maps without War Score from flags. This would mean the only way to increase War Score would be demigod kills. Or it could be combined with making War Score optional, resulting in four choices: Time, Flag, Flag + Demigod kills, Demigod kills

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9. Selection issues (known)

I don't know if this is what you mean but there's a bug with the shops. If you select it and then close it you can't select it again unless you move a bit.

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The more I play beta 2, the more i think paying gold for upgrades is the better option.

But I just feel that it works pretty well, and I can't yet compare it to a war score, so maybe we should give the score a try. I'm happy with upgrading using gold though.

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18. Clicking on a demigod shows health and mana in numbers. A Green bar does nothing to tell how much health or mana someone has.

19. A hold position key, so you don't have to spam the ground to try and make your hero stop.

20. UI for your creeps. Seeing their healthbars somewhere would help.

21. In game commands to see your armor reduction, movement speed, attack speed, ect.

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