keithLamothe

Join Date 11/2006

+21

Idea Threshing: Building units from other Factions

This came up on the general forum and seemed worth batting around here in "Ideas":

Initial Problem: if a player gains control of a city populated by another faction, can they build the units of that other faction?

Solution 1: yes, no restrictions (e.g. MoM)
- con: leads to endgames being very similar as big players get every race

Solution 2: no, they may only build units of their starting faction (e.g. Dom3)
- con: it's a very rigid lock-in (if that's a bad thing)

Alternate Solution: you can only build a faction's higher level units if your "relations" with that faction are high enough

Specifically:
- add a "required relations" value to each unit type
- add a "relations" value between each player and faction
- have a player start with max (or just very high) relations with their starting faction
- have various player actions raise or lower relations with affected factions, examples:
-- clearing out dangerous monsters or armies near them will increase relations
-- attacking them, plundering/malforming their nearby lands will decrease relations
-- when conquering a city, whether you plunder/destroy it or allow a peaceful surrender has an impact
-- casting certain spells to make you more appealing, or just the fact that you use a certain type of magic may sit well or not well with them
-- pouring out part of your "essence" (mentioned elsewhere by devs) for them may endear them significantly to you since it is a big sacrifice
-- during character creation you could spend some of your "picks" to max out your starting faction relations or start with higher-than-neutral relations with certain other factions, or just make it easier to gain relations in general
-- your starting faction may make it impossible (or easier) to gain relations with other factions; gaining relations with factions from the opposing race might just be impossible

Cons:
- takes development time
- adds complexity

Pros:
- avoids total lock-in, but makes it a very serious tradeoff to use the units of other factions
- could give a feeling that your actions "matter" more when those Forest dwellers with the really nice archers would rather be dead in a ditch than serve the guy who burned 3 of their cities to the ground.

Whaddya think?

Thanks,
Keith

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Maybe there should some hard limit, then some spells/abilities/traits/anything else that could raise a bit that limit (or lower if you take a "bad" trait at faction creation - if that kind of system ever exist)

Without any magic you can just build the tier 1 of ennemy. With the appropriated spell (assimilation? Know your ennemy?) you can build higher tier units. But the best ones could never be built.

Or you could buy them (not build them !). It would some kind of mercenary units, that could betray you if you don't pay them each month or don't treat them good.

Also there should be some love/hate between factions, like in homm where you lose morale points if you have a too much diversed army.

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1) hard limit, raise or lower by character trait

- yea, sounds good. I'm thinking the most you could feasibly pull off is getting the max tier of one other faction, or next-to-max tier of 2 other factions, but nothing past that. It could be tuned.

2) mercenary units

- interesting, MoM had mercs but they weren't a big deal. If they were the *only* way to get that really cool unit they would be pretty important.

3) love/hate between factions

- definitely, like in MoM a Dark Elf and a High Elf simply are never going to get along on a large scale. Some factions (like Dark Elves in MoM) should be hated by nearly everyone.

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Adn why not mixed armies?

You can only create your kind of units but you can "attach" support units to yours (like in kohan !!)

You are a basic human with cavalry and those things. And you conquer a barbarian city. Then you can add a nbarbarian support to your knight build On thaht city. Those would let you a chance to scare some ennemies before combat.

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If there's a "make-your-own-unit" in-game system like Alpha Centauri, the mix-n-match would be cool. I was assuming a system like MoM or Dom3 where each faction has a set list of units available (you can mod it, sure, but that's outside the game). I may be very wrong.

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In MOM when you conquered a city you had bad blood as moral was low. I remember most of the town did not produce anything because they were rioting. This could be cool too in this game. As long as the town hates you you just can't get antyhing out of the town.

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Yep but after? You would be able to build any unit with the proper buildings? That would be just too easy. The more I think about it, the more would love to see a kohan system (with support units), and you could only build support units of an ennemy faction.

edit for spelling

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I prefer the MoM / AoW - SM model. Let me explain it properly.

Specifically, if you conquered another city with a different alignment they would rebel and need lots of pacification such as garrison and buildings.

Troops of the wrong alignment would also have a chance to desert. So you could have some variety but would be limited to thematically similar troops.

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I think that all factions should have 'Standard' and 'Special' units.

Standard Units would be Spearman, Swordsman, 'Basic Ranged', 'Basic Mounted', Catapult or Ballista, and 'Basic Caster'.

Special Units would be unique to each faction, like Paladins, Unicorn Riders, Giants, Cannons....

If you took over a factions town you could build all of thier Standard units but not the Special units.

Simple, easy to code (More time for cooler stuff), and it keeps each faction feeling unique.

Sammual

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Sammual, yes, that would be a good approach with low development time. Having a relations system might be more than it's worth, but maybe the devs will have a better idea.

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Quoting Sammual,

reply 8

I think that all factions should have 'Standard' and 'Special' units.

Standard Units would be Spearman, Swordsman, 'Basic Ranged', 'Basic Mounted', Catapult or Ballista, and 'Basic Caster'.

Special Units would be unique to each faction, like Paladins, Unicorn Riders, Giants, Cannons....

If you took over a factions town you could build all of thier Standard units but not the Special units.

Simple, easy to code (More time for cooler stuff), and it keeps each faction feeling unique.

Sammual

Isn't it too large? Only the very basic ones (for garrison) should be buildable. The more advanced ones (but not the very special ones) should need something (spell? avatar trait? diplomacy? bribing?) else to be buildable.

The special ones just can't.

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Quoting vieuxchat,

reply 10

After reading today's journal post this just become obsolete. The units are always 'designed' by the player from techs and resources they have.

Sammual

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Yep .. but will there be a way to build unit with lizards if you're a human? I mean If I take control of a city of lizardmen will I be able to create lizard's units?

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The new Dev Journal suggests we will create our units like we created our ships in GalCiv2

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Personally I think the key here is based on loyalty. A city of a different faction should have greatly reduced loyalty upon capture, so it must be occupied by your troops in order to prevent it from going back to its previous faction or forming its own independent faction. Likewise, while you should be able to recruit troops from the conquered population (much like the auxiliaries recruited from conquered Roman territories, or like the Germans recruiting from conquered populations in WWII), you should have to shadow them with a greater number of your own troops in order to prevent their defection or revolution. Their morale should also be lower to represent a lack of willingness to die for your cause. In that way you still gain the ability to improve your capabilities from conquest, however recruiting foriegn troops comes with a tradeoff as they will be less willing to die for you than troops that are born into your kingdom.

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Also, what about the possibility of using other races' equipment? The question remains, should you be able to train troops with those ultra-snazzy longbows you can't get because your tech tree favors knights? If so, should there be a penalty as your government and infrastructure isn't familiar with that type of good? That could make for an interesting choice between using foreign gear that may be hard to come by or using your slightly inferior gear that can be supplied far more easily.

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Yep armies often used captured tech or stuff. Maybe a boost in the appropriate tech when you put hands on something useful.

And why not an alliegance system not with faction but with gender. Like you captured a lizard city then each turn you relationship with them will evolve (for the better of you build structures they like in their town)

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