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HuntingX
HuntingX
Join Date 02/2006
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Current State of Game Balance

April 12, 2008 8:54:55 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Anyone with valid points (please think what you say over or you WILL get flamed) is welcome to chime in.

This is simply what I personally believe at this early stage of the patch.  Please also note that I have played a relatively limited number of games (although, with good opponents) in 1.04, so my views may or may not change over time.

That said, here is my ranking of the three factions:

Small Map 1v1:

#1: Tec
Strengths: Sova + LRMs are as strong as ever, and now Sova is nearly impossible to drive out of your home system

Weaknesses: Poor technology tree progression, poor flak frigate, relatively weak capital ships, strong economy plays no role in small map 1v1
#2: Advent
Strengths: Illuminators are the dominant powerhouse LRF, Defense vessels are still extremely strong, Mothership speed buff allows it to not die to lrms, Radiance is still the most powerful 1v1 capital, and Advent caps no longer die to LRM spam due to speed changes.

Weaknesses: Guardians and Crusaders require too much tech level to be practical, Drone carrier nerf makes them worthless, 3 of the 5 capital ships are nearly useless
#3: Vasari
Strengths: Tier 1 LRF, Navigators are more useful due to increased neutrals, Black Market buff increases income

Weaknesses: Assailants and Sentinels are two of the least efficient units per cost in the game, highest cost, Subverters and RA play no role, Evacuator doesn't get good until levels 5/6 which it will never reach

Medium Map 1v1, 2v2, 3v3:
#1: Vasari
Strengths: RA is as strong as ever, Subverters are as dominant as ever, higher neutrals means much higher income for the Vasari, better Black market counters Tec trade ports, better Evacuator speed allows it to survive to level 6 for Drain planet, Enforcers are very strong
Weaknesses: Very weak early game, assailants are terrible, sentinels are a counter unit only and are fairly terrible, loses to either of its opponents in a fair fight without subverters.

#2: Advent
Strengths: Illuminators are the dominant powerhouse LRF, Defense vessels are still extremely strong, Mothership speed buff allows it to not die to lrms, Radiance is still the most powerful 1v1 capital, and Advent caps no longer die to LRM spam due to speed changes.  Crusaders and Guardians are achievable and dominant with the improved Mothership.

Weaknesses:  Extremely weak economy compared to Vasari or Tec.  Lower resource production than the Vasari, lower credit production than Tec.  However, counterbalanced by higher quality ships and better capital abilities (MALICE)

#3: Tec
Strengths: Strongest credit economy, LRM is still a very powerful ship, Kol at level 6 is nearly unkillable, HCs are durable and cheap, with intercept they are a viable rush build.

Weaknesses: Akkan aura needs a buff, although the speed boost is very useful.  LRM no longer the king of the battlefield with the new Illuminator taking its crown, credit income is not nearly as useful since buy prices are much higher than before, units are tough but have low dps, lrms are impossible to micro to safety due to reduced speed and acceleration, forcing heavy casualties, capital ship abilities in general do not level as well as other races, and Tec have the worst ultimate capital abilities in general.

That's my take on the game, comments/questions are welcome.
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HuntingX
innociv
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #1 April 12, 2008 9:26:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Defense vessals aren't that much better than tecs. Not like they need changing or anything.

And I think most of illums strength is coming from Malice. Without malice they'd be equal to javs at best. But this basically makes it a requirement to make mothership, unless you're going against another advent then you may use radiance to AM burn the mothership.

When WEREN'T 3 of the 5 advent caps worthless? You say "now". Radiance and Mothership have only ever been the only good ones. (Not because they're too good, per se, but because the others are too weak.)


With Vasari..
Well RA hasn't changed. It wasn't nerf, like you may think from the notes, as it's AM recharge was the limiter of how fast you made them. It's stronger than 1.03 due to fixed Vasari eco, but it's the sameish as 1.02.
Subverters are doing much better since few understood how good they where in 1.02, but in 1.03 the nerfed vasari eco made subverters their crutch. Now Vasari eco is fixed, and they're balanced as they should be, except now subverters are clearly overpowered as they're that icing on the cake.

For their 1vs1, yeah sentinels are complete crap. But in the bigger games, you have charged missiles. Charged missiles makes them miles and miles better than the other flaks. (did extensive testing with and without charged missiles..)
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DreamMystic
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #2 April 12, 2008 9:35:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Advent is suppose to have weak economy, their strength is suppose to be in culture. However with culture its as if they have no starting advantage at all, its laughable compared to the economic advantages of TEC. The current state of it doesn't pose much of a threat, no matter how much money you invest in the culture techs. The result is still the same, which is easily negated by making your own broadcast center and placing a cap ship on that planet to repel the culture.

Whats even worse is that there is a entire tree nearly dedicated to culture. So thats a damn near useless tree. If culture was changed(for advent) where it forces actually enemies to invest a continuous amount of resources in order to win the culture war against advent , then I will know its working as intended. Just like advent players are forced to compete on military and economy terms with the TEC and Vasari, the other factions need to feel threatened by culture.

You said 3 of the 5 cap ships for advent are almost useless. I disagree, I think all of them have their use. But only 3 of them are good from the start. Which is Radiance, Mothership and Rapture. The first two are obvious why, Rapture is good from the start because of vengeance, vertigo and later concentration aura for your drones. However I think Revelation is the weakest of the 5 since its harder for advent to pull off a direct assault like TEC and Vasari.

I think the only unit that I feel needs some work is the Domina Subjugator, it justs seems so weak and not worth the investment. And it seems to far down the tree for what it does. I think drones are good, in swarms and with Rapture. They aren't as bad as everyone says. They are feeble though, which makes them very vulnerable.

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TheRedMaw
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Reply #3 April 12, 2008 10:58:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
If you're going to go for a Capital other than the Radiance and the Progenitor, I think the Halcyon is generally a better choice than the Rapture.

Amplify Energy Aura effects basically all Advent ships, at it's highest giving a 22% lower weapon cooldown. Concentrated Energy Aura of the Rapture only applies to the fighters and bombers housed in various ships, which although it will ultimately give them 30% higher damage, fighters and bombers still die very fast to even small amounts of Flak (and Drone Hosts are no longer quite cheap next to the other carriers for Crystal, so they're not as good to use, even if you were trying to use them before). The Rapture has other abilities, although Vengeance pales in comparison to Malice, and Vertigo even at it's highest level seems to not be all that special, I would rather just a Halcyon using it's Aura and Telekinetic Push to support a fleet.

The Radiance is good for an opening capital against another Advent, or a TEC on a small map if you're worried about a Sova rush, and if the Radiance can stay alive long enough to get Cleansing Brilliance the crazy stuff can begin. The Progenitor still has it's exquisite fleet support abilities, Malice which effectively for a limited amount of time massively ups the dps of your entire fleet, and Shield Restore which, especially with Guardians, is great (only real downside is Resurrection because of how situational it is, and how most people seem to target the Progenitor first because they know how dangerous it is, so the Resurrection is lost since it cannot be applied to itself).

Culture is much weaker than military or economy, I'm sure everyone agrees. But Advent's raw survivability later in the game can make up for it, you might not make as many credits or resources but an Advent fleet is much better at holding itself together and even making it through large battles only losing a few ships. Less credits made but less that have to be spent on replacing losses and on fleet upkeep.

To be more on topic, I haven't had enough experience yet with 1.04 to really be sure on the balance of things. It seems much better than the last patch, TEC doesn't such a great advantage over the other factions due to the credit production abilities, and Advent doesn't get rolled so easily on a smaller maps (still vulnerable on very small maps, but still if they last long enough for Illuminators and Defense Vessels they can be very potent).
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Arcturus87
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #4 April 13, 2008 2:48:46 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
---------------


I have only played a very limited number of games in 1.04 but here are my 2 cents:

Very early game: 0-7.5 minutes
TEC embargo rush still dominates.
Vasari Assailant rush and TEC lrms still dominate advent while they tech to illuminators. Defense vessels are still good but not as good of a counter to lrfs due to nerfed damage (75%). Their damage is bad to begin with.. they are good because of their rediculous hp.

Early game: 7.5-15 minutes
TEC lrms still very cost effective and easy to start massing very early game. Advent Illuminator tech rush begins to dominate. Vasari mass assailants still very powerful here, although the momentum is towards the other factions. Dominant Cap Ship Abilities include well.. malice and embargo as always.

Early-Mid game: 15-20 minutes
Advent Illuminators dominate the game. Also, buying shield tech upgrades for a large illuminator fleet allows for a transition to guardians. All HC "rushes" begin to dominate. Cap ship abilities viable broaden to include shield regen from the progenitor, skirantra repair itself, advent carrier's beam enhance damage, etc.

Mid Game: 20-30 minutes
Illuminators continue to dominate barring encounters with mass HC. All HC fleets are very strong. Cap ship lv 6 abilities are powerful. So volatile nanites, drain planet, etc. Tech economic boom begins to dominate.

Late Game: 30 minutes +
Subjugator and Subverter are strong here. Subverter is more viable due to better black market prices. Advent is clutched due to no real economic base. TEC has an advantage due to economic boom and early trade ports.

Very Late Game: Whenever.
Vasari Returning Armada still dominates for reasons illustrated in first post. It wasn't nerfed at all.


Regarding general balance issues:
Vasari and Tech lrf significantly nerfed! Speed debuff cripples their ability to maneuver mid game. If you start losing you have lost in this case, as you will not be able to retreat. Also, more difficult to micro successfully. Cap ship survivability increased significantly. Colonizer cap speed buff but mainly lrf speed debuff allows them to always be able to escape.

So: The only BIG changes seem to have been to ship speed, illuminator power, and market prices.

HuntingX seems to have nailed it on the head.


~Arcturus


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polarity13jp
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #5 April 13, 2008 5:09:26 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Maybe LRFs need the option of retreating at a higher than normal speed. Hit the retreat button to activate it, but you won't be able to fire for a set time (reroute weapon energy to engines).
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HuntingX
transitive
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Reply #6 April 13, 2008 6:59:17 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
i think there's one important factor HuntingX didn't discuss regarding Vasari in a 1v1 map. it is more viable for Vasari to remain at only the first fleet supply upgrade (-9% income) for a longer period of time than the other factions which require numerical superiority to defeat the Vasari. This creates a portion of the game where the Vasari player has effectively a 10% income bonus relative to his non-Vasari opponent. It won't last forever, eventually the Vasari player will also have to upgrade their fleet supply but they can get away with doing it later which translates into an economic advantage in the critical middle period of the game (between about 20 minutes and 35 minutes).

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innociv
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Reply #7 April 13, 2008 7:57:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
What?.. That's wrong.

JAvs are better supply-for-supply than assailants.
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transitive
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Reply #8 April 13, 2008 8:49:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
but the upgrades aren't. my experience has been that an equal supply fleet of assailants will beat javelis if the vasari player has researched the first 4 phase missiles upgrades (at tier 1 and 3).

perhaps my experience is atypical, but thats been my observation.
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Reply #9 April 13, 2008 10:50:39 PM
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Uhh.. you don't get 4 upgrade of phase missiles in 1vs1. That total goes against the point you where making.
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Arcturus87
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Reply #10 April 13, 2008 11:21:57 PM
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Transitive, you are incorrect.

It is true that vasari benefit from getting lrfs faster, and that their lrfs do more damage and have more health than lrms; however, in order for a vasari player to maintain brief firepower superiority, the vasari player will actually have to upgrade to tier 2 fleet capacity sooner than tec or advent players.

To reiterate:
Getting lrfs sooner simply means that in order to maintain a larger fleet of lrfs the vasari player will need to upgrade their fleet capacity even sooner.
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innociv
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Reply #11 April 13, 2008 11:26:09 PM
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Uhh.. you don't get 4 upgrade of phase missiles in 1vs1. That total goes against the point you where making.
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Gabal
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Reply #12 April 13, 2008 11:32:24 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Thank you HuntingX and everyone else, I haven't seen a discussion thread this good and civilized in a very long time. Now if it could only get a sticky so that this become THE thread about discussion of the game's balance........
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Reply #13 April 14, 2008 1:29:04 PM
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On a small map 1v1, a properly played Vas is the strongest race, not the weakest. Lv1 LRM research means Vas LRM spam has a serious resource advantage in an all out early rush game.
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HuntingX
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Reply #14 April 14, 2008 1:42:06 PM
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Sounds like a challenge.

I humbly accept.
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SpaceDebris
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Reply #15 April 14, 2008 1:56:10 PM
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I'm up for a game. If you belive TEC/Adv is better in a 10 minute game, I'd like to hear the reason why. The resource difference between 1 lab + lv1 research and 2 labs + lv2 research is very large in the early game. How do you expect Tec/Adv to make up that diff in the first 10 min?
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ArcturusOfSins
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Reply #16 April 14, 2008 2:10:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I agree with SpaceDebris. Vasari early lrfs dominate very early game as I mention earlier. This is limited to an all out rush though.

It's hardly fair to have a 1v1 knowing that your opponent will do that though, lol. Obviously massing defense vessels will counter the rush (even if not terribly effectively anymore). Not sure about flak frigs though, they aren't as great anymore.

Now, against an embargo rush it could be no dice. If an embargo rusher attacks the vasari player, the vasari player certainly could run him out of the system and chase the sova around the map, but the time lost in doing so should allow the tec player to gain an lrf advantage.

The tec player may lose a 'roid if the vasari player's smart.. but the game should still go to the tec player if they sova rush. Other than that I generally agree with space debris, and only in 1v1s. In multiplayer when I "rush" skilled players close to me they often get fed resources from their team mates to mass HC etc.

HuntingX, tell jinx I want a 1v1 against him.
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ArcturusOfSins
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Reply #17 April 14, 2008 2:13:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

PS: SpaceDebris I don't know how skilled you are, and honestly I haven't played against HuntingX, but he's the head of the most elitest clan on sins... if he's as good as Drexion from his clan you're in for a tough fight.

Better to test that assailant rush against someone you know won't out-micro you.
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CommanderAdama
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Reply #18 April 14, 2008 2:18:36 PM
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lol as far as I hear, HuntingX is the best of Team X. I can't wait to have a match with them.
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ArcturusOfSins
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Reply #19 April 14, 2008 2:33:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Oh hey adama, lol, i've played with you before. Yeah i'd like to play a game with HuntingX to see his skill level.

In any event this is getting off topic.

People: start posting replays so you can prove your "theories".
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Jotanhorn
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Reply #20 April 14, 2008 2:37:11 PM
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Has anyone tested the Carrier functions of each faction yet? im still working on the advent drones and finished the TEC: here are my findings

TEC: Sovas have stayed the same, however slightly weakened due to the increase in advent capital ship speeds. bomber/LRM rush doesn't keep the carrier from getting killed even while hovering on the edge of the jump well.
However: i think that the Heavy fighter ability has been completely neutralized compared to vasari or advent fighters now with improved upgrades in 1.04

Advent carriers are by far the best in this game now in my humble opinion. Increased speed plus the rapture and progenitor fleet support abilities make these the best strike craft vehicles in game, even with the reduced Hp and easily destroyed drones.

Again: has anyone else tested these in game and gotten numbers? i haven't really had time to do an indepth study yet.

Thanks in advance
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Reply #21 April 14, 2008 2:46:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
advent are #1...as for the battleships I thnk the correct answer is 4/5 are good. I personally dont like the haylcon battleship as I am not a fan of thousands of fighters heh..I must say the revelation at lv 6 has a slightly higher DPS then the radiance and a slighty bigger HP. I must also say that I am biased and I love the advent. HuntingX was correct when he said radiance is the most powerful ship 1v1..I fought my brothers lv 10 kol battleship and it was quite an epic battle which I came out on top..we were also in plasma storm and had no use of abilities
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ArcturusOfSins
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Reply #22 April 14, 2008 2:52:17 PM
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The haylcon carrier may actually be A LOT more viable now, although not nearly as good as a progenitor or radiance, it has a passive aura that increases beam damage. With the better illuminators this ability is that "icing on the cake".

I think i'll try it out as a second cap in a game later.. to see if it's worth it.
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Reply #23 April 14, 2008 3:26:07 PM
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Man Drex is gonna get the biggest ego trip ever after reading this thread.

LOOOOOL.
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JamesP81
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Reply #24 April 14, 2008 4:38:13 PM
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if he's as good as Drexion from his clan you're in for a tough fight.


I actually played against the both of them 2v2 once. Final analysis: they're both really good.
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Reply #25 April 15, 2008 8:18:13 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Drone carrier nerf makes them worthless


I'm looking in the changelog but I'm not seeing anything except they cost less; how have they been nerfed?
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