My Economy is TERRIBLE no matter what I do..... please help my noobness...

Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

There are a two basic things I can tell you that will help allot!

Firstly, if the AI’s are stealing all your worlds, you can solve that problem by using a large map then press CNTRL+N to restart your game until you get a small cluster of stars that are separated away from the main clusters. When you start the game, if you encounter a border of some other race, immediately restart and try again. This tactic is the best way of aiding you to play well above your difficulty level.

When you colonise new worlds, just build markets unless you find 300+ tile bonuses.

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Okay, you can tech trade for planets. You can get low pop/hostile environment planets fairly easily and with 100% research with focus hostile environments can be 100% efficient for you.

There are basically three viable strategies that I've found:

Always do 30% econ and usually pick the federalist party

1) Tech trade for planets + research treaties(100% Research, focus social, never build a ship, only build econ buildings rely on quantity of planets + research treaties to get techs)
2) Custom Super Breeder/+2 speed colony spam(100% social, focus research until starport is built, then focus military, build all econ except on social bonus tiles and a starport, spam colony ships, once the planet is too far from unhabited planets, then replace starport with econ and focus research again)
3) Tech rush for military advantage/conquer planets/stablize economy/tech rush again/conquer planets(100% research focus social in tech rush phase, military in conquer planets phase, use Korath +20% research + 20% social)

Tech trade for planets and research treaties is by far the easiest if you do that it's almost impossible to lose unless you're on a smaller map because the AI won't trade it's last three planets. You need to be neutral for it to work. The strategy is also very boring to play.

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See Purge's Detailed Suicidal AAR for DA. I've played a slightly modified version for my far less capable playing style, and it helped tremendously.

Note: make sure you go to the top of his thread -- I haven't figured out how these links work, yet.

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Hi!
NeuralTech, GalCiv-2 is a 4x game. Those 4x stand for eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate. If you want to be a successfull 4x player, you simply must follow the path of the four X:
1) Explore: find what's in your space and beyond, to plan your development properly.
2) Expand: take what you found as fast as you can. The goal here is to simply GRAB EVERYTHING. If you don't, others will. The one who grabs the more will in the long run win. The catch in 4x games is this phase shall NEVER end. You must grow and expand until you win.
3) Exploit: develop what you get, use whatever means you have available to make you stronger, or opposition weaker. Know thy enemy.

Only so you'll be able to exploit their weak spots. And when you start exploiting them, you'll do so after thorrough preparation of several months: proper fleets in proper positions, your enemy diplomaticaly weakened if not at war you've paid and financially broken...
4) Exterminate: do that FAST! Do that to the one you can subdue the most easily. Use what he has left, proceed with the next weakest. Repeat until you win.

Looking at your post I'd say you failed in the second phase: expansion. Starting in a dead corner doesn't help with the expansion, you know.

Starting next to the opposition also not, especially if they want the same things as you do. And failing to build colonizers FAST to take all planets close to you wil not make you bigger. So in the next game you need to:
- turn off blind exploration,
- play a race with stellar cartogaphy,
- use CTRL-N if you start in a tight spot,
- produce a colonizer on your HW each 3rd turn, until there are planets you can settle, or you're losing too much money each turn, that "too much" being proportional to your economy. If you can't cover most of it by rising taxes to general approval about 50%, it is to much.

To quote CraigHB: "If the economy is tough in Dread Lords, it's brutal in Dark Avatar." I'm sorry you found that the hard way, but that's the part of learning experience. Here you might find useful my post Playing with lots of planets - how to financially survive first year? usefull for further advice.

BR, Iztok

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Choosing techs when the economy doesn't get started:

- sensors I (to build explorers)
- economy techs (Banks)
- no new science/manufactoring techs (they only help you spend money faster)
- morale techs (especially the first one - they have built in bonuses that allow you to tax more eve if you av no morale buildings).
- StarDemocracy (Bonus on economy + influence (tourism, not too effective) + diplomacy (so you can sell stuff to the AI)
- farming: more people on 9B planets

From the start (race seection):
- economy, morale, and population growth help with the economy

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One thing that could be causing your morale problems is population. The more population a planet has, the more its approval rate will drop. Are you building farms? If so, stop. Never build a farm on your home planet, and only build one on other planets. If you put some of your racial ability points into morale and keep your populations under 16 billion, you should never even need to build a morale building.

As for building strategies, the best advice I have is, don't build on all of your planet tiles right away. Build several factories on your home planet, then stop for a while. When you colonize a planet, build a factory or two and a starport, maybe an econ building - and stop. Set your sliders to heavy military production and keep pumping out colony ships. Putting some of your ability points into social and military production will help here. After the colonization phase, build your planets out slowly as your economy picks up.

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One way i have found that works is to build 1 or 2 factories on a new world depending on the PQ of the planet and then build 4 economy buildings. These are great as they cost nothing to keep but bring in more bc's per turn. I then leave the planet until it reaches 6 bil people before deciding on the planets final layout.

One thing to remember that i believe has not been mentioned is that you should not build on those lovely 700% bonus tiles until your economy can sustain the huge financial outlay they cause. At the beginning even a 300% tile could cost you more than you can raise on that planet!

Best of luck

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There are a two basic things I can tell you that will help allot!

Firstly, if the AI’s are stealing all your worlds, you can solve that problem by using a large map then press CNTRL+N to restart your game until you get a small cluster of stars that are separated away from the main clusters. When you start the game, if you encounter a border of some other race, immediately restart and try again. This tactic is the best way of aiding you to play well above your difficulty level.

When you colonise new worlds, just build markets unless you find 300+ tile bonuses.

Interesting lil 'trick' : )
About building "just build markets" on new colonies... do you mean to not build ANYthing except for Economy boosting structures??? if so... I'm really confused... I only need Factories/Research Centers on my home world??... that doesn't seem very space economical considering home planets usually don't come with butloads of tiles.

About the whole 'restarting' the level.. I can also see the benefit of landing a homeworld with decent 'boost' tiles would be very helpful.. I have simply been playing the game that's generated on the first try.

thks for your advice

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Okay, you can tech trade for planets. You can get low pop/hostile environment planets fairly easily and with 100% research with focus hostile environments can be 100% efficient for you.

There are basically three viable strategies that I've found:

Always do 30% econ and usually pick the federalist party

1) Tech trade for planets + research treaties(100% Research, focus social, never build a ship, only build econ buildings rely on quantity of planets + research treaties to get techs)
2) Custom Super Breeder/+2 speed colony spam(100% social, focus research until starport is built, then focus military, build all econ except on social bonus tiles and a starport, spam colony ships, once the planet is too far from unhabited planets, then replace starport with econ and focus research again)
3) Tech rush for military advantage/conquer planets/stablize economy/tech rush again/conquer planets(100% research focus social in tech rush phase, military in conquer planets phase, use Korath +20% research + 20% social)

Tech trade for planets and research treaties is by far the easiest if you do that it's almost impossible to lose unless you're on a smaller map because the AI won't trade it's last three planets. You need to be neutral for it to work. The strategy is also very boring to play.

I appreciate the 'build strats' you've shared with me. I'm sorry to say that yes, they do sound "boring to play" : ) : K

Also, I play with tech trading turned off : ) - it seems the comp is way too effective at it, so I turn it off... and doing research treaties isn't my style at all... I don't want to share my techs with the other races : )

A buddy of mine who is also new to the game seems to think trading 'crappy/low level' techs for higher techs is a good strat... I have yet to experience this for myself.

thk you sir

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Choosing techs when the economy doesn't get started:

- sensors I (to build explorers)
- economy techs (Banks)
- no new science/manufactoring techs (they only help you spend money faster)
- morale techs (especially the first one - they have built in bonuses that allow you to tax more eve if you av no morale buildings).
- StarDemocracy (Bonus on economy + influence (tourism, not too effective) + diplomacy (so you can sell stuff to the AI)
- farming: more people on 9B planets

From the start (race seection):
- economy, morale, and population growth help with the economy

Iztok, thank you sir for your in depth look at 4X strat games.... I will take heed to your excellent advice!

Mr. Butterfly:

"no new science/manufactoring techs (they only help you spend money faster)"

intereeeeeesssttttiiiinnnng... I have been going for the first 2 research techs EARLY in the game, so my research would be faster - maybe I'm overspending... god, I really wish I knew how those accumulated points worked... sh**, maybe I've been unknowlingly hindering myself into the ground economically...?....

I have been going for that first 'Moralish' tech.. the one that helps moral by like 10-15%... do that REAL early.

And as far as 'governments' go... I've been staying with the stock one, and going all evil for the most part - I favor keeping my people alive over make a measly 50-200 BC, BUT if there's a soldiering bonus, I'm all over the evil option.

thks for piping in, guys!

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- produce a colonizer on your HW each 3rd turn, until there are planets you can settle, or you're losing too much money each turn, that "too much" being proportional to your economy. If you can't cover most of it by rising taxes to general approval about 50%, it is to much.BR, Iztok

I am going to try this tonight on my new game.
: )

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One thing that could be causing your morale problems is population. The more population a planet has, the more its approval rate will drop. Are you building farms? If so, stop. Never build a farm on your home planet, and only build one on other planets. If you put some of your racial ability points into morale and keep your populations under 16 billion, you should never even need to build a morale building.

As for building strategies, the best advice I have is, don't build on all of your planet tiles right away. Build several factories on your home planet, then stop for a while. When you colonize a planet, build a factory or two and a starport, maybe an econ building - and stop. Set your sliders to heavy military production and keep pumping out colony ships. Putting some of your ability points into social and military production will help here. After the colonization phase, build your planets out slowly as your economy picks up.

oooooooooo... yeah, I'm trying to get my pops going fAsT... I was under the impression that more people = more mula when taxing comes into play.

(bold) - intereeeeesting - damn, that's pretty much what I do "fill the tiles up" as fast as possible... I thought it was beneficial to get LOTS of factories and research centers built up on ALL colonies as fast as possible...?...... from what you guys are saying, it looks like I've been uneccessarily hampering my economic efforts by building 'more than I can sustain'???....?.....

this advice is stellar
thk you sir!

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One way i have found that works is to build 1 or 2 factories on a new world depending on the PQ of the planet and then build 4 economy buildings. These are great as they cost nothing to keep but bring in more bc's per turn. I then leave the planet until it reaches 6 bil people before deciding on the planets final layout.

One thing to remember that i believe has not been mentioned is that you should not build on those lovely 700% bonus tiles until your economy can sustain the huge financial outlay they cause. At the beginning even a 300% tile could cost you more than you can raise on that planet!
Best of luck

DAAAAAAAAAAANG!!! That's another thing I was doing in the first couple turns - was UTILIZING those "special" tiles early on... I didn't even stop to think about how they're most likely (turns out they are according to what you just said : ) costing more than I can afford at the time... dammmmmmmmmn, I've been doing that on EVERY planet I colonize...

lol - there was a HUGE chunk right there...

How am I measuring how much they're costing me? In terms of BC per week? Or in terms of one of the 3 prod points per turn?

can't thank you enough for piping in:)))))

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Do not waste your time building markets/banks on new worlds right off the bat. First of all, markets increase revenue based on the current population. Adding a market when the population is so low will do nothing but waste your production points. In fact, try not building ANYTHING on a planet that you have already designated as a "cash-cow" planet. Just let the population grow for a few turns. If you don't believe that, try it. Build a market and see if your revenue changes. And don't bother building a farm until your population cap is near max. It won't help either. When you first colonize a planet, notice the revenue and the maintanence/upkeep costs. Now build that market and watch what happens to your spending. Its just not worth the cost. This might help with your economy.

Secondly, to possibly shed a little more light on your actual question about your economy, it sounds like you build or focus a lot on tech. Thats not a bad thing, but you might need to tailor a few things. Are you building labs? If you are, just realize they get REALLY expensive. You almost have to have designated planets that do nothing but have markets, a farm, maybe a morale building and nothing else. You'll figure out the balance of planets soon enough, it just takes some gameplay experience. If you have say 10 planets in that size galaxy, I would try 2 or 3 as manufacturing planets for ships, 2 to 4 with labs to keep with your strat you like, and the rest strictly to make money to fund the others.

Lastly, when playing on normal setting or lower, I would suggest moving your production slider to 100 percent, and no matter what, do not take it off 100 percent. If you do something that puts you in the hole and you have to lower your slider, don't do that thing. Forcing yourself to do this will quickly teach you what you can and can't pull off and how to manage your funds and planets a little more efficiently. Later on, when you grasp the mechanics a lot better, you can move that slider around. But in all honesty, I always move it to 100 percent on turn 1 and never move it. I realize there are times when I could move it, to get more money in a turn to buy something I need or whatever, and occasionally I will do that. But not very often.

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A. Do not waste your time building markets/banks on new worlds right off the bat. First of all, markets increase revenue based on the current population. Adding a market when the population is so low will do nothing but waste your production points. In fact, try not building ANYTHING on a planet that you have already designated as a "cash-cow" planet. Just let the population grow for a few turns. If you don't believe that, try it. Build a market and see if your revenue changes. And don't bother building a farm until your population cap is near max. It won't help either. When you first colonize a planet, notice the revenue and the maintanence/upkeep costs. Now build that market and watch what happens to your spending. Its just not worth the cost. This might help with your economy.

B. Secondly, to possibly shed a little more light on your actual question about your economy, it sounds like you build or focus a lot on tech. Thats not a bad thing, but you might need to tailor a few things. Are you building labs? If you are, just realize they get REALLY expensive. You almost have to have designated planets that do nothing but have markets, a farm, maybe a morale building and nothing else. You'll figure out the balance of planets soon enough, it just takes some gameplay experience. If you have say 10 planets in that size galaxy, I would try 2 or 3 as manufacturing planets for ships, 2 to 4 with labs to keep with your strat you like, and the rest strictly to make money to fund the others.

C. Lastly, when playing on normal setting or lower, I would suggest moving your production slider to 100 percent, and no matter what, do not take it off 100 percent. If you do something that puts you in the hole and you have to lower your slider, don't do that thing. Forcing yourself to do this will quickly teach you what you can and can't pull off and how to manage your funds and planets a little more efficiently. Later on, when you grasp the mechanics a lot better, you can move that slider around. But in all honesty, I always move it to 100 percent on turn 1 and never move it. I realize there are times when I could move it, to get more money in a turn to buy something I need or whatever, and occasionally I will do that. But not very often.

A. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... this is making loooots and loooots of sense now.

B. Yes sir, I do build LOTS of research centers,.... NOW I know why i was going frekin broke SO quickly...... (the light is beaming down on me as I type this) (insert 'ahhhhhhhhhh' choral sound : )

I have been trying to 'mix it up' if you will - making BOTH factories AND tech related building on ALL of my planets...

LOLLLL, I have been going about this SO wrong.... ahahah bwahaha

C. Holy batmobile!! That sounds like the most crucial advice I've received all day.... holy smokes - I've had that slider anywhere from 30-80% during my games... WOW... LOL.... no freaaaakin wonder I'm sukin so hard at this game...

THANK YOU SIR for taking the time,

Chr*s

p.s. I will not come back with these types of questions for the next week er so... NOT until I've beaten a Large galaxy on Normal difficulty.

This forum is THE most helpful forum I've EVER had the pleasure of being a part of. Thank you SO much to everyone who's been patient with my noobness and who's spent time out of their day to help me play a 'video game' : ) means a lot, folks.

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I am going to print out this ENTIRE convo between ALL of us so that I can study it further (and memorize all the key points)..... ROCK ON!!!

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Eh... what are your planet rarity settings? Also, what Super Ability and racial abilities are you using?

I've just realized that the problems I've never had are all caused by that phenomena of colony rush(which is something my games don't contain). Rare settings kind of rock, that way. You don't have to deal with a colony rush, but instead have to work with fewer planets, and make better use of Trade, Starbases, Asteroid Fields, Tech Trading, etc. to maximize the ability of your few resources until you've conquered someone.

At lower difficulty(Painful and below), you may as well turn tech trading ON. The deals you get aren't THAT bad actually, and IMO, they're actually quite fair.

You must also consider what Super Ability you have and use this tool to it's max.

If you have Super Breeder, you shouldn't build any farms and turn tax rate DOWN so that you planetary approval hits 100% and you have lots of taxpayers in no time.
If you have Super Dominator, you can openly demand money from the other races, and they'll give it to you without asking for anything in exchange(really, it works!).
If you have Super Diplomat, you should tech trade as you will get MUCH better deals and you will automatically have better relations with the AI.
If you have Super Annihilator, you can build Spore Ships and go around killing everyone in the region early in the game, with no real effort, and you will never have to research an Extreme Colonization technology.

Meanwhile, my 4th game, with a Good-aligned Super Dominator custom squirrel race called the Nuts, is going smoothly. The Drengins have been conquered by me and I managed to get 1300 bc as tribute in a single turn from minor races and from the Korx thanks to my Super Ability. Demanding money and getting it for no reason just rocks, especially if you take the time and read Kralax's big complaint letter. However, I've got a question to Iztok about defense depletion, but I'll post that tomorrow once I've transferred the screenshot to this internet-connected computer.

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Eh... what are your planet rarity settings? Also, what Super Ability and racial abilities are you using?

I will get back to you on this around Mondayish....

From my memory, I'm playing a customized Yor Collective with their stock 'super ability' - doesn't really help me all that much... that or I don't fully understand it's potential.... and I usually go all evil.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

About building "just build markets" on new colonies... do you mean to not build ANYthing except for Economy boosting structures???

Normally i will just build economy boosting structures yes, although later on when my finances are strong, i may build 1 factory to speed up the upgrading processes for those markets untill they all become stock markets. Once the planet has maximum upgraded stock markets plus 1 farm plus 1 morale building, fully upgraded, i will then usually build over that factory with a stock market.

Any planets with a factory bonus will get a permanent factory tho and also get a starbase as well (i don't usually build a starbase on planets with no factory bonus unless bonusses are very rare).

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