TechTree - the order of things » Forum Post by NeuralTech

Well, advanced techs take a while to research because... they are advanced. If you choose to work your way down one tree you will suffer in other areas. That's your choice.

Remember, you can help supplement your population by using your ability points to increase pop growth, keep your morale at 100% (double population growth), and you can also use colony ships or troop transports to ferry population around (ie. take pop from a highly populated planet and send it to a smaller population planet to increase the base growth).

Also, perhaps you could research a bit down the research tree so you can increase your research capacity, and thus research any and all technologies faster, including fertility clinics. Or, researching a few economic and morale techs will allow you to keep your overall morale at 100%, which gives you that double pop growth which is much better than the 25% from FCs. That's a start, anyway, you'll get FCs eventually!

Try to keep an open mind for new strategies while playing, there are always different methods to get from point A to point B. I hope this helps

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A. Well, advanced techs take a while to research because... they are advanced. If you choose to work your way down one tree you will suffer in other areas. That's your choice.

B. 1. Remember, you can help supplement your population by using your ability points to increase pop growth, 2. keep your morale at 100% (double population growth), and you can also use colony ships or troop transports to ferry population around 3. (ie. take pop from a highly populated planet and send it to a smaller population planet to increase the base growth).

C. Also, perhaps you could research a bit down the research tree so you can increase your research capacity, and thus research any and all technologies faster, including fertility clinics. Or, researching a few economic and morale techs will allow you to keep your overall morale at 100%, which gives you that double pop growth which is much better than the 25% from FCs. That's a start, anyway, you'll get FCs eventually!

D. Try to keep an open mind for new strategies while playing, there are always different methods to get from point A to point B. I hope this helps

A. That's well and fine, but why does a 'simple' tech such as "Militarization" take 1 week on the first turn, YET, if I decide to go for advanced techs the first 30 turns er so.. come back to "Militarization" it takes 3-5 weeks/etc..????? That makes absolutely no sense to me and is kind of infuriating. If it's a week on the first turn... why doesn't it stay at 1 week the entire game?

B. 1. Damn... didn't think to do that.. will do! 2. WHOA!! Didn't know that. 3. Knew this, but didn't think to do it, lol.. coolness.

C. Damn... great points. Solid advice.
D. You're absolutely right... it was feeling like I was slightly pigeonholed into what I 'needed' or felt the need to tech.

Please keep in mind I've barely been playing the game a week, and this is my FIRST 4x Strategy game EVER. I REALLY appreciate your help!!

Rock on,

Chr*s

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Well - once you've familiarised yourself with this game you will notice that it makes sense that higher techs become more expensive. Technology is not rated in weeks but in research points - a number of shields you have to generate in order to be able to learn the new tech. That is why Space militarization becomes easier to research if you have more colonies and more science buildings (why else should one bother to build them).
If rushing through a tech tree was not penalized, well then I'd rush through tech trees all of the time: Buildings, weapons and so on at the end of a tech tree often make the ones at the beginning of the tree obsolete. The point of the research tree is asking yourself: do I have the possibility to research more than one step at the time, so I don't have to upgrade as often and neglect other fields of study or do I go for a balanced approach. Both ways can work sometimes (e.g. rushing to the spin control center) is considered worth it by some players - or rushing down the path of evil.

With time you will come to realize how beautifully the tech tree is balanced. I've never ever chosen the exact tech route twice in who knows how many games - because the situation tells you what you need.

BTW, if you want a game where your opponent falls over as soon as you pull the trigger, play counterstrike. This is a game that is usually played by mature players - turn-based and brain-based. It takes time. Take a few weeks to experiment with the system ere criticizing it.

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Hey, that makes sense to me. Please don't think I'm loathing the game, am simply expressing my ignorance and how said ignorance is bugging me : )

I'm in love with this 4x strat so much, that I'm going to go buy Masters of Orion 3 at Fry's today for $10.

I'll be playing GalCiv II until part 3 surfaces : )
I'm hooked and THANK YOU, guys for walking me through SO much of this.
I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should simply play through both campaigns to 'learn' the game.... originally I figured playing skirmishes right off the bat would be the best way to 'immerse' myself, but I'm beginning to question that logic.

You guys kick a**,

Chr*s

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About lower techs "increasing" in time to research: assuming you haven't passed the "threshold", where all your infrastructure is built and you just start piling money in the bank, you have to carefully manage your resources, correct? You are probably trying to research when you have a low budget and you reduced your spending, whether overall or for just research. Either way, it is taking longer because you are throwing less money at it per week.

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[it] gave me all kinds of satisfaction

Is that why they call it a 4x game?

I think this game is all about patience. If the advance techs were easy to come by, I would just rush to the Blackhole Generator or Doom Ray each game. I think the sandbox mode is not a bad way to learn the game. Just pick a medium type game with average AI and medium size or something and be prepared that your but is going to be kicked a couple of times. In this way you, when the enemy shows up at your doorstep with a superior military and economy to back it up, you have an idea about how fast you should develop your empire and base your strategy on that. And remember, when you change all the settings for a new game, you might need a completely different strategy!

Good luck!

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Hi!

I am confused why it is SO difficult to research to the point of being able to make a 'Fertility Clinic'....

Imagine yourself going into south America into deep jungle to some forgotten tribe that still lives almost in stone age. Being mentaliy there, try to convince them to start producing portable computers.

...

Now do you have the idea, why ist is so difficult to research to the point of being able to make a anything? You need A LOT of "background" knowledge on how to make just basic materials, to make basic tools. Then more kowledge to make more tools, to make other, more compex tools, to make even more sophisticated tools, to make ...

That's the path you need to go to make technology feasible. There are no shortcuts through it. The game represents that well, and that's why you feel it's so difficult. However with your growing game experience it will be less and less. Just enjoy it!

BR, Iztok

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There are no shortcuts through it.

Well, you can always trade for higher techs, and hit the ground running.

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A. About lower techs "increasing" in time to research: assuming you haven't passed the "threshold", where all your infrastructure is built and you just start piling money in the bank, you have to carefully manage your resources, correct? B. You are probably trying to research when you have a low budget and you reduced your spending, whether overall or for just research. Either way, it is taking longer because you are throwing less money at it per week.

A. makes sense to me
B. nail meet head - I think I haven't been paying enough attention to those 3 sections at the top of the "planet screen".... dunno... lemme get back to you on that one. i think I've been coasting at around 60-70ish% with regard to the 'spending meter'. Later on, when I 'can', I increase it.

The one thing I'm having the hardest time with is keeping my people's morale above 50%... I haven't researched ANY of the diplomatic related techs... been staying "evil" for the most part... dunno if that's part of my problem er not..

Most of the time when taking over new planets, you know.. those choices you have to make... I usually go with the evil ones... UNLESS it involves allowing LOTS of my people to die, I usually go with the evil choice.

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There are no shortcuts through it.

Well, you can always trade for higher techs, and hit the ground running.

I've been playing with that off.... after reading about the comp being WAY too proficient at trading, I decided to not give it that advantage.

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[it] gave me all kinds of satisfaction

Is that why they call it a 4x game?

I think this game is all about patience. If the advance techs were easy to come by, I would just rush to the Blackhole Generator or Doom Ray each game. I think the sandbox mode is not a bad way to learn the game. Just pick a medium type game with average AI and medium size or something and be prepared that your but is going to be kicked a couple of times. In this way you, when the enemy shows up at your doorstep with a superior military and economy to back it up, you have an idea about how fast you should develop your empire and base your strategy on that. And remember, when you change all the settings for a new game, you might need a completely different strategy!

Good luck!

sound advice, thk you sir

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Hi!

I am confused why it is SO difficult to research to the point of being able to make a 'Fertility Clinic'....

Imagine yourself going into south America into deep jungle to some forgotten tribe that still lives almost in stone age. Being mentaliy there, try to convince them to start producing portable computers.

...

Now do you have the idea, why ist is so difficult to research to the point of being able to make a anything? You need A LOT of "background" knowledge on how to make just basic materials, to make basic tools. Then more kowledge to make more tools, to make other, more compex tools, to make even more sophisticated tools, to make ...

That's the path you need to go to make technology feasible. There are no shortcuts through it. The game represents that well, and that's why you feel it's so difficult. However with your growing game experience it will be less and less. Just enjoy it!

BR, Iztok

Awesome

Oh, I am... believe me : )
And with y'alls help, I think I'll get a grip on this software a whole lot faster : )

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I'm in love with this 4x strat so much, that I'm going to go buy Masters of Orion 3 at Fry's today for $10.

Whoa! Don't waste your money, my friend. It's just awful. MOO2 and its predecessor were both excellent for their time, though.

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B. nail meet head - I think I haven't been paying enough attention to those 3 sections at the top of the "planet screen".... dunno... lemme get back to you on that one. i think I've been coasting at around 60-70ish% with regard to the 'spending meter'. Later on, when I 'can', I increase it.

The one thing I'm having the hardest time with is keeping my people's morale above 50%... I haven't researched ANY of the diplomatic related techs... been staying "evil" for the most part... dunno if that's part of my problem er not...

B. You can set spending to 100% from the very start of the game, it's quite common to have higher costs than income and use quite a bit from that 5000 bc reserve you start with. You only have to be careful that your empire becomes profitable by the time you only have 500 - 1000 bc left.

C. The important part of morale is faster population growth (was already explained above), helping to prevent your planets from defecting and winning elections so you get your party's bonus. Inbetween elections you can increase taxes and have 21% morale (though then your population stagnates, so don't do this early in the game), as long as you improve morale just before the next election (see the Civilization manager to see how many weeks before the next election). Also note that morale differs from planet to planet, so overall you may have 50% but some planets may be far lower...

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The one thing I'm having the hardest time with is keeping my people's morale above 50%... I haven't researched ANY of the diplomatic related techs... been staying "evil" for the most part... dunno if that's part of my problem er not..

Just to let you know. You should research the moral techs not the diplomacy techs to get that 50% higher. An if you're near the beginning of the game and need money, higher taxes and 50% is ok.

Lastly, it seemed that you were saying that you thought that researching the diplomacy techs would somehow not make you be able to be evil. Diplomacy has no bearing on your ethical alignment.

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This is all sound advice!
btw: I put MOOrion3 back on the shelf as I walked out of Fry's yesterday... GALCIVII is more than enough for me I realized... I don't need another 4x strat game... this one has me all tied up.

Maaaan... guys, a new problem arose for me last night. Go ahead and laugh at my pathetic being: w/comps AIs still on level 2 from the bottom (dunce I think) (on a tiny galaxy):

Iconians/Thalans/a custom race that I designed to be ALL military/and 2 minor races:

Everything went fine for most of the 3+ hr game.... I had the best military going in the galaxy... My custom race went all Ballistic attack and armor defense... I went lasers and armor defense along with shields.

I still have 'small' hulled ships... and OUT OF NOWHERE, my custom race opponent (The Judicators, I know...lol. what a cool name ehlol) they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing...

And I spent most of my treasury on these fighter ships I was building only to have to 'upgrade' all of them as new technologies were coming out (and before I knew it, I lost just about ALL of my treasury). I'm also wondering if there's a simple way to simply "upgrade Defender MK1 - Defender MK2" across the board for every single model of that name... VS. having to click e a c h ship one by one and do the 'upgrade'..?...

Anyway, now I have no clue how to mess with this "Ranger" class ship when I'm still on 8 HP small ships. Maybe I simply suck more than anyone when it comes to these games, but I'm not understanding for the life of me how I'm going to be able to 'hang' with the AI when it's economy is = to mine... if it's "finding" Huge hulled ships out of nowhere...

And please don't take all this as whining, guys...(I'm in love with the game, etc)... and simply talkin out loud : )

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My tech tree approach has always been to get mainly in this order.

Stellar Cartography
Translators
Planetary improvments
Diplomacy 1
The +15 Moral tech
Any advanced colonisation needed
Basic weapons
Then all the rest of the diplomacy techs to Total Majesty

The reason being if I'm colonising as hard as I can I can't afford to upgrade everything early on, and I can't afford a military.

This leaves me with a large number of planets but very weak. I build the spin control centre and with its x5 boost to perceived military strength I can get away with a laughable little military, that seems strong enough to not get attacked.

Then I slowly build up my large number of planets. I am weak in the early and middle game but very strong in the late game. I leap frog in techs like weapons by doing nothing until mid game, then buying a tech and researching from there.

All this said, you can get to the same position late game by just invading planets. But I prefer to play the good route.

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And I spent most of my treasury on these fighter ships I was building only to have to 'upgrade' all of them as new technologies were coming out (and before I knew it, I lost just about ALL of my treasury). I'm also wondering if there's a simple way to simply "upgrade Defender MK1 - Defender MK2" across the board for every single model of that name... VS. having to click e a c h ship one by one and do the 'upgrade'..?...

Get weapons that are not countered by ballistic (deal with an AI - unless you are still top military?), get better defenses (I think armor: the last duranthium tech is good value for money), get medium hulls or larger and decent logistics). Until you are there: make peace. Don't worry about opponent's hitpoints too much: A well constructed ship with decent defenses can take down three/four time its enemy worth of hitpoints, especially if you avoid single combat and attack in fleets.

Best: on tiny/small maps: Lure the enemy away from its home planet and then use a few ships + ground troups in ultrafast transports to kill his homeworld (and other 10+) worlds. If your enemy only has a moon - he has already lost.
Anyway: Space battles may look cool but avoiding combat in the middle of nowhere with faster ships and a few CHEAP anti-transports helps more in the long run.

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This is all sound advice!
btw: I put MOOrion3 back on the shelf as I walked out of Fry's yesterday... GALCIVII is more than enough for me I realized... I don't need another 4x strat game... this one has me all tied up.

Maaaan... guys, a new problem arose for me last night. Go ahead and laugh at my pathetic being: w/comps AIs still on level 2 from the bottom (dunce I think) (on a tiny galaxy):

Iconians/Thalans/a custom race that I designed to be ALL military/and 2 minor races:

Everything went fine for most of the 3+ hr game.... I had the best military going in the galaxy... My custom race went all Ballistic attack and armor defense... I went lasers and armor defense along with shields.

I still have 'small' hulled ships... and OUT OF NOWHERE, my custom race opponent (The Judicators, I know...lol. what a cool name ehlol) they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing...

And I spent most of my treasury on these fighter ships I was building only to have to 'upgrade' all of them as new technologies were coming out (and before I knew it, I lost just about ALL of my treasury). I'm also wondering if there's a simple way to simply "upgrade Defender MK1 - Defender MK2" across the board for every single model of that name... VS. having to click e a c h ship one by one and do the 'upgrade'..?...

Anyway, now I have no clue how to mess with this "Ranger" class ship when I'm still on 8 HP small ships. Maybe I simply suck more than anyone when it comes to these games, but I'm not understanding for the life of me how I'm going to be able to 'hang' with the AI when it's economy is = to mine... if it's "finding" Huge hulled ships out of nowhere...

And please don't take all this as whining, guys...(I'm in love with the game, etc)... and simply talkin out loud : )

What's a Ballistic attack? There are only Mass Drivers(Guns), Missiles and Beam Weapons(Lasers). I suppose you mean Mass Drivers.

Missiles are easily the most powerful, but take the longest to research. Beam Weapons are weaker, but are easy to research. Mass Drivers are cheap, but they are the weakest of the 3 options.

"Maaaan... guys, a new problem arose for me last night. Go ahead and laugh at my pathetic being: w/comps AIs still on level 2 from the bottom (dunce I think) (on a tiny galaxy):"

To learn the game, do what I did. Spend weeks reading the wiki and pestering these guys, then hit the galaxy and own it. Read 'First Game - The Altarian Resurgance'. Challenging Difficulty, Bright AIs, Large Galaxy.

"they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing..."

The Precursor Ranger is an ancient ship built by the Arnor, whose power was out of this universe and beyond anything you can do. Also, this Ranger is just an archaeological find that your custom opponent managed to dig up and realized that it was still working.

Since it was dug up and hot-wired into service by the Judicators, it appears to come 'out of nowhere'.

For now, don't use small hulls. Turn up your research, get Medium Hulls, grab yourself some nice Torpedoes if you can, or else go for Phasors, and research the defensive path you need to stop the Ranger's attack.

If you choose Good Alignment, you can research the tech 'Arnorian Battle Armor'. This is a powerful armor that 'lives', and regrows itself. It was created by those very same Arnor, who built the Ranger. If the Ranger is using Mass Drivers(aka. Guns), then Arnorian Battle Armor will do a good job of protecting you from it, provided you add enough of it on your ships.

To see what kind of power the Arnor really had, play against the Dread Lords(who are a group of 100 rebel Arnor). If you think the Ranger was powerful, wait 'til you see who created them. Wyndstar has apparently seen a Dread Lords dreadnought with an attack rating of 2000!!!

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I still have 'small' hulled ships... and OUT OF NOWHERE, my custom race opponent (The Judicators, I know...lol. what a cool name ehlol) they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing...

Look at their weapons. Build fighters that defend against their weapons and fire with weapons they have no defense against. You'll kill them in no time.

Have fun!

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This leaves me with a large number of planets but very weak. I build the spin control centre and with its x5 boost to perceived military strength A. I can get away with a laughable little military, that seems strong enough to not get attacked.

B. All this said, you can get to the same position late game by just invading planets. But I prefer to play the good route.

A. Hmmm, are you saying that what kind of military the player has, has a 'decisive' factor on whether or not the comps attack said player??? That would make sense, but wow... I didn't know if the AI was that advanced or not... I figured they simply waited until they felt comfortable in attacking other players... This adds a WHOLE new element, thks for mentioning this!

B. Bingo... I noticed after taking over some Minor races who had built up substantially badass planets, that I gained their buildings/techs/etc... as long as I didn't ruin them during the invasion/etc. Totally BADASS... love it!

thks for pipin in,

Chr*s

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And I spent most of my treasury on these fighter ships I was building only to have to 'upgrade' all of them as new technologies were coming out (and before I knew it, I lost just about ALL of my treasury). I'm also wondering if there's a simple way to simply "upgrade Defender MK1 - Defender MK2" across the board for every single model of that name... VS. having to click e a c h ship one by one and do the 'upgrade'..?...

Get weapons that are not countered by ballistic (deal with an AI - unless you are still top military?), get better defenses (I think armor: the last duranthium tech is good value for money), get medium hulls or larger and decent logistics). Until you are there: make peace. Don't worry about opponent's hitpoints too much: A well constructed ship with decent defenses can take down three/four time its enemy worth of hitpoints, especially if you avoid single combat and attack in fleets.

Best: on tiny/small maps: Lure the enemy away from its home planet and then use a few ships + ground troups in ultrafast transports to kill his homeworld (and other 10+) worlds. If your enemy only has a moon - he has already lost.
Anyway: Space battles may look cool but avoiding combat in the middle of nowhere with faster ships and a few CHEAP anti-transports helps more in the long run.

Sage advice, thks for that!

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I still have 'small' hulled ships... and OUT OF NOWHERE, my custom race opponent (The Judicators, I know...lol. what a cool name ehlol) they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing...

Look at their weapons. Build fighters that defend against their weapons and fire with weapons they have no defense against. You'll kill them in no time.

Have fun!

I hear you... and that's exactly what I did.
check it:

This Ranger ship is all Ballistic attack and Armor defense... and my fighter ships are armed with lasers (which should hurt him a lot since he has NO shields, only armor), armor AND shields...

This Ranger ship went through 3 of my fleets (of 3 of those ^ class fighters) in less than 5-6 turns... it was pathetic.. I've got it saved before they "find" the Ranger, but I'm still a lil timid about the situation. I'm thinking I really need to get my lasers up and keep getting my armor stronger, BEFORE I think about engaging in combat just like 'thebutterfly' said.

should be a good fight when I get home

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This is all sound advice!
btw: I put MOOrion3 back on the shelf as I walked out of Fry's yesterday... GALCIVII is more than enough for me I realized... I don't need another 4x strat game... this one has me all tied up.

Maaaan... guys, a new problem arose for me last night. Go ahead and laugh at my pathetic being: w/comps AIs still on level 2 from the bottom (dunce I think) (on a tiny galaxy):

Iconians/Thalans/a custom race that I designed to be ALL military/and 2 minor races:

Everything went fine for most of the 3+ hr game.... I had the best military going in the galaxy... My custom race went all Ballistic attack and armor defense... I went lasers and armor defense along with shields.

I still have 'small' hulled ships... and OUT OF NOWHERE, my custom race opponent (The Judicators, I know...lol. what a cool name ehlol) they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing...

And I spent most of my treasury on these fighter ships I was building only to have to 'upgrade' all of them as new technologies were coming out (and before I knew it, I lost just about ALL of my treasury). I'm also wondering if there's a simple way to simply "upgrade Defender MK1 - Defender MK2" across the board for every single model of that name... VS. having to click e a c h ship one by one and do the 'upgrade'..?...

Anyway, now I have no clue how to mess with this "Ranger" class ship when I'm still on 8 HP small ships. Maybe I simply suck more than anyone when it comes to these games, but I'm not understanding for the life of me how I'm going to be able to 'hang' with the AI when it's economy is = to mine... if it's "finding" Huge hulled ships out of nowhere...

And please don't take all this as whining, guys...(I'm in love with the game, etc)... and simply talkin out loud : )

What's a Ballistic attack? There are only Mass Drivers(Guns), Missiles and Beam Weapons(Lasers). I suppose you mean Mass Drivers.

Missiles are easily the most powerful, but take the longest to research. Beam Weapons are weaker, but are easy to research. Mass Drivers are cheap, but they are the weakest of the 3 options.

"Maaaan... guys, a new problem arose for me last night. Go ahead and laugh at my pathetic being: w/comps AIs still on level 2 from the bottom (dunce I think) (on a tiny galaxy):"

To learn the game, do what I did. Spend weeks reading the wiki and pestering these guys, then hit the galaxy and own it. Read 'First Game - The Altarian Resurgance'. Challenging Difficulty, Bright AIs, Large Galaxy.

"they "found" some "Ranger" class ship with crazy high ballistic attack rating and SERIOUS armor... OUT OF NOWHERE... and now... my 3 ship "fleets" have no effect on this thing..."

The Precursor Ranger is an ancient ship built by the Arnor, whose power was out of this universe and beyond anything you can do. Also, this Ranger is just an archaeological find that your custom opponent managed to dig up and realized that it was still working.

Since it was dug up and hot-wired into service by the Judicators, it appears to come 'out of nowhere'.

For now, don't use small hulls. Turn up your research, get Medium Hulls, grab yourself some nice Torpedoes if you can, or else go for Phasors, and research the defensive path you need to stop the Ranger's attack.

If you choose Good Alignment, you can research the tech 'Arnorian Battle Armor'. This is a powerful armor that 'lives', and regrows itself. It was created by those very same Arnor, who built the Ranger. If the Ranger is using Mass Drivers(aka. Guns), then Arnorian Battle Armor will do a good job of protecting you from it, provided you add enough of it on your ships.

To see what kind of power the Arnor really had, play against the Dread Lords(who are a group of 100 rebel Arnor). If you think the Ranger was powerful, wait 'til you see who created them. Wyndstar has apparently seen a Dread Lords dreadnought with an attack rating of 2000!!!

(mass drivers are a ballistic weapon : ) yuppers

I can't THANK you enough for taking the time out of your day to explain ALL of that to me... THANK you kind sir

man oh man how I'm falllllllllling in love with this game.. whether I'm talking about it with you guys (lol) or playing it.. how has the 4x strat game eluded me ALL these years.. baffles me... I'm SO into RTSs, the next logical step was THIS type of game. thank God I found it

I was actually thinking about having Missles and Lasers to go at this Ranger with - that combined with strong armor... the options the options... I love it.

THKS again to everyone for being so helpful, this forum is awesome!!!

Chr*s

happy camper I am I tell you what

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I was actually thinking about having Missles and Lasers to go at this Ranger with - that combined with strong armor... the options the options... I love it.

Most people only put one weapon type on a ship:
Big weapon - one shot - no chance for defense (as it is the square root only for the wrong type)
two medium weapons - two shots - two scratches

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