Necronic

Join Date 02/2007

Neutral too powerful?

I cannot for the life of me think of any reason to play anything other than neutral. For one you get 60-70% the planet bonus that the evil choice will give you.

Most importantly, and this is DA specific, is the terraforming bonus. Immediately terraforming every square that you have the tech for is insanely powerful. The amount of money saved is monumental. When you compare that with the advantages you get for choosing evil or good....its way overpowered.

Now, I don't want to suggest getting rid of that. I think its just that good and evil suck, not that neutral is overpowered. Just wondering if anyone else thought the same.

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Well I think the +100% empire wide economy bonus which Evil aligment get is quite good. However Good aligment is kinda sucky compared to evil and neutral.

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The neutral terraforming bonus used to be even better - all the terraformable tiles were automatically updated, even if you hadn't researched the appropriate techs.

Also, remember that Neutral doesn't get any special weapon or defense techs.

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Well I think the +100% empire wide economy bonus which Evil aligment get is quite good.

That's a bug/exploit, not a bonus. I'd say the big advantage of evil is the weapons techs.

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Neutral is no longer overpowered in DA. Also there seems to be a cap on empire-wide morale bonuses, and that cap doesn't go any higher just because you're neutral. If you have a few yellow starbases anyway, that erases Neutral's morale advantage. Although, Neutral probably is the strongest alignment if you have a lot of class-2 planets on the map (and no yellow resources).

Good isn't too bad, either. It just requires a diplomatic playing style. But I do tend to think Good is the weakest of the 3, at least until the Mind Control Center gets nerfed (if it ever does).

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Personally I really like saving 500bc every time I invade a planet. Not to mention the cheap starbases that evil can build.

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I wouldnt say neutral is "overpowered" in DA (It used to be in DL)...its just that Good, and to a lesser extent Evil, suck. (I realize this might be splitting hairs a bit, but I feel the solution is making good and evil a little better, not nerfing neutral)

If military stabases and military starbase tech were less of a waste of time and resources, "Evil" would probably be great. In the perfect universe that Stardock imagines where people actually build military starbases, I can see evil shining. On easier difficulty levels, Evil also gives you an early tech victory once you get "psionic laser", but on the hardest difficulties when you cant out-tech the AI, its more likely to just be used against you.

Good though is severely sucktastic. While I can imagine situtations it might be nice to have, its bonuses are too situational (maybe if the diplo bonus was global and not just with other "goods")...and you get screwed in every planetary alignment event, without measurable payoff anywhere else.

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+135

In the perfect universe that Stardock imagines where people actually build military starbases, I can see evil shining.

I use military starbases. I find them quite useful as they provide attack bonuses to my tiny ships without actually increasing their costs. It only costs me a small amount of bc to improve military starbases. Once improved, all of my tiny ships are that much more powerful, with no increased price of production for them.

Good though is severely sucktastic.

Hey! I play as good. I find some of the benefits that Evil and Neutral gets are weak. Sure, both instantly upgraded tiles and psionic weapons are poweful, while they last, but the duration that provide benefits are limited. Psionic weapons are eventually made obsolete once you research later parts of the weapons tech tree, and free tiles benefit only lasts until everyone else catches up to you.

The good techs provide benefits that lasts the whole game. The special good defense techs provide a +5% hp, and +15% defenses. The structure "Empathic tactical command center" provides an additional +20% defense.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

and you get screwed in every planetary alignment event, without measurable payoff anywhere else.

agree!

also i remember in galciv1 you had to work hard to earn a good alignment, (you couldn't just throw money at it) and evil had a serious downside with regard to rebeling planets event. I'm not certain it was any better balanced than now, but i did like having to earn my good alignment (to avoid rebelion) after being evil from the initial colony rush.

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Well personally I think that the Good choices in the moral choices you have in colonization period are sorta stupid. Example: the rabib space wombats who are actually a weapon. The good choice is let the poor blood thirsty alien wanna be critters live and take a big hit on population and treasury. IIRC every land has at one time had some type of bounty on vicious animals. Seems like this would be an evil choice... I dont care what happens to my people. The good choice to be is nuke it from above. Sorta bass ackwards. I personally dont think much of good/evil/neutral choices its more whats best for my people.

Duh

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Personally I really like saving 500bc every time I invade a planet. Not to mention the cheap starbases that evil can build.

It would be good to figure out the math behind the invasion tactics. You burn 500bc, but do you make it back in increased population and less transports you had to build? I don't know.

I do know for a fact that the No Mercy Invasion Center is only worth it on large galaxies. It costs something like 3500bc to build--and the planet tile you have to build it on. So it'll take something like 5 Information Warfares before you reach a break-even point. I have never had it truly pay off on a Medium galaxy, even on abundant/abundant.

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I agree choosing good is essentially an increase in difficulty level. There should be some payoff for good alignment other than increased defense, which itself was of dubious value in DL and nerfed to oblivion in DA. I think there should be a substantial economic bonus at the very least. I think it would be reasonable too if AI civs were more likely to surrender to a good alignment, assuming it wasn't the good civ that started the war.

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People always forget the slave center (evil, of course). 50% bonus to production after all other production bonuses have been applied. You can build big warships in nothing flat from very average planets.

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I think it would be reasonable too if AI civs were more likely to surrender to a good alignment, assuming it wasn't the good civ that started the war.

Why only if they didn't start the war? Wouldn't it make more sense that a race would be more willing to surrender if they knew they'd be treated as equals rather than forced into slave labour or exterminated? It might be a nice alteration to blanket increase the chance of surrender to good civilisations, while penalising evil civilisations (they'll fight to the death to resist slavery, but will happily join up with the nice guys).

Personally, I think the ethic choices are the bigger problem. It always seems that being good is a penalty (either in morale, finance or similar) while taking the evil choice is rewarded. It would be nice to see a few events where each alignment option gave you a different benefit (or penalty) for example, an event where the good choice gives a small bonus to morale, while the evil choice grants a bonus to research (and neutral pays out a few hundred CR). Actually make the player think about the choice in more than a "what alignment do I want to be" fashion.

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Personally, I think the ethic choices are the bigger problem. It always seems that being good is a penalty (either in morale, finance or similar) while taking the evil choice is rewarded. It would be nice to see a few events where each alignment option gave you a different benefit (or penalty) for example, an event where the good choice gives a small bonus to morale, while the evil choice grants a bonus to research (and neutral pays out a few hundred CR). Actually make the player think about the choice in more than a "what alignment do I want to be" fashion.

Great idea. Pretty easy to mod the 'Events.xml' to do this, actually. Of course that means no metaverse and thus no shiny icons beneath your posts. Maybe when I'm feeling super-proactive I'll release a mod. I mean really, the GC1 style "suffering is the path of the righteous" ethical choices have no place in GC2 without resultant penalties for being eeeeeevil.

I also wish there was some way to make it so EVERY planet had a colonization event. Would make the opening phase of the game so much more entertaining.

Cheers

h

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

I also wish there was some way to make it so EVERY planet had a colonization event. Would make the opening phase of the game so much more entertaining.

Cheers

yes it would indeed! - but fix it so that evil races wouldn't benefit so blatantly from such a change.

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The big thing that everyone forgets in the good-evil-neutral arguments is the diplomacy aspect, which is actually quite an advantage for neutral. See:

Good:

Good - great relations
Neutral - indifferent relations
Evil - hostile relations

Neutral:

Good - indifferent relations
Neutral - great relations
Evil - indifferent relations

Evil:

Good - hostile relations
Neutral - indifferent relations
Evil - great relations

Obviously playing neutral will give you more friends and less enemies.

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I like it that each one is different. They add more play style choices. I can pick an alignment that may not be optimal for my strategy in a given game to increase the challenge...or pick one that helps that strategy to make it easier.

Going Good is a great way to handicap yourself to add more challenge to a difficulty level when playing a Conquest type strategy.

Going Evil while playing as anything but a warmnger makes it a challenge.

Neutral is more balanced - you can usually switch strategies mid game more easily...

As far as the ethic events are concerned, I never worry about picking one that goes against my chosen alignment...it only costs 2500 interest free credits to change once you research the Ethics path. Just make sure your treasury is less than 2500 Credits when you finish researching it...and it only costs you 10 Credits a week interest free. No big deal.

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Well I think the +100% empire wide economy bonus which Evil aligment get is quite good. However Good aligment is kinda sucky compared to evil and neutral.

That's a bug/exploit, not a bonus. I'd say the big advantage of evil is the weapons techs.

Hm, if its a bug then why dont they fix it. It's been around for a while I believe.

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Hm, if its a bug then why dont they fix it. It's been around for a while I believe.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know why they don't fix it, but you'll notice that the test for the Mind Control Center doesn't say anything about a +100% econ bonus. It's supposed to make planets flip instantly, whereas it actually appears to keep them from flipping at all and produces an econ bonus because, from what I've read, of some kind of faulty function call. It's certainly not WAD, so I tend not to build them at all when I play evil. Too cheesy.

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It's supposed to make planets flip instantly, whereas it actually appears to keep them from flipping at all

I flip planets all the time with the MCC up.

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I usually play Neutral, but that is only because I like playing the slimy arms dealer. I have found that with the AIs it is the GOOD races that are my most serious competition - assuming they are not actually already spanking me. Why? Its because of Good's innate tendancy to have a group hug-fest and make threee way alliances.

Evil on the other hand always seems to get wiped out in my games (usually by the previously mentioned huggers). In fact I can't recall the last time an evil race won a game. Its either me winning, or some sickly sweet Good Alliance.

Dano

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I wonder if your alliance has mostly to do with the Altarians' Super Organizer trait. I bet if you start wars with the other good civs first, you might not be seeing the same alliance.

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Another advantage of "neutral" is the new research facility, "neutrality research center", if I recall correctly. I find this to be a great bump in my research capacity, especially early on, allowing me to speed up the tech tree for weapons and build an uncontestable military. Combined with the added planetary tiles, and the transformation of PQ1 weaking planets into PQ 16-17 powerhouses, I always play neutral when I want easy sledding.

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It's supposed to make planets flip instantly, whereas it actually appears to keep them from flipping at all

I flip planets all the time with the MCC up.

Interesting. I only built it in a couple of games before I figured out it didn't work right and stopped, but in neither of those games was I ever able to get aplanet to flip (and in one I was literally spamming influence starbases at every planet on the map, I had 12 skull and crossbones markers up at one point and still never got a flip til I destroyed the colony the MCC was on). Maybe it was just really bad luck, though, who knows? It doesn't really matter, the point is mainly that the thing's broken.

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