Vanchelon

Join Date 04/2005

More examples of semi-(in)competent AI concerning planetary improvements and planetary class bug.

+Screenshot and some other minor issues.

Yes Im brining this up again to make sure its taken seriously and help out any way I can

This is a screenshot of an Altarian planet I just invaded. Gigantic galaxy, everything abundant (more planets = harder AI, it can afford to screw up more

), Crippling difficulty and 9 AIs (+125% AI bonus), playing as Yor.
As Ive seen countless times before, this is a prime example of how oblivios the AI sometimes is when building improvements. A LOT of primarily research capacity was lost on this planet which could have been a powerhouse.
After checking a lot of planets in my current game I'd wager that about 30-50% are borderline useless or not well utilized (filled with culture and morale in the middle of the empire). Even though Ive seen a decrease in said buildings in the last patch, its still a very common occurance to find a huge surplus of morale and culture when there is absolutely no need for it.

Also note an example of the planetary classification bug that seems to occur in all 1.11 games, for all races (except neutral afaik). Base class was 7 and even tho the planet has gotten new tiles the classification doesnt change. I would also hypothesize that you dont get the planetary bonuses either (population, +morale etc) since the class doesnt go up.

Should any dev read/answer to this thread, how well does the AI replace old buildings, if ever?
I.e, this wouldnt be so bad if the AI re-evaluated its improvements and saw, "aha!" "I dont need that anymore or mb I should build a research improvement on that +300% research tile"

I admit I have no idea how complex the AI evaluation is, obviously its quite complex else these issues wouldnt occur.

Another bug Ive noticed is that if I put myself in debt, my tax income jumps by 25% ish, then after maybe 10+ weeks it drops back down to the value it was before I got into debt.
Is this some weird recalculation or...

To mention some of the good things Ive noticed since 1.11 concerning the AI.
It appears to be better at designing warships and countermeasures to the players military and other AIs military, its put up more of a fight then the 1.1 Crippling difficulty game I played.
The drengin in the current game are quite strong, they have managed their planets fairly well and have atleast twice the research output as the other AIs.

Screenshot:

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

That is REALLY bizarre but REALLY helpful.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"Another bug Ive noticed is that if I put myself in debt, my tax income jumps by 25% ish, then after maybe 10+ weeks it drops back down to the value it was before I got into debt.
Is this some weird recalculation or... "

This part at least is easily explained. After a certain point, your entire spending is diverted into your treasury to pay off your debt, so it looks like you're getting more money. In reality, your spending controls have been forcibly and invisibly set to 0.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Great pic Vanchelon.

I have posted about the PQ returning to the original level bug more times than i care to mention and not recieved a single response from a stardockian. It has been in the game throughout the 1.1 betas and possibly before, this needs to be fixed by 1.2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Base class was 7 and even tho the planet has gotten new tiles the classification doesnt change. I would also hypothesize that you dont get the planetary bonuses either (population, +morale etc) since the class doesnt go up.

Your right morale and pop cap is affected, this bug affects everyone (all AI's and players) the only way i currently know to get rid of it is choossing neutral as your ethical alignment.

Your pic also highlights theres still a lot of work to be done for the planetary management AI's.

Lenius.

Successfully updated karma reason!

This part at least is easily explained. After a certain point, your entire spending is diverted into your treasury to pay off your debt, so it looks like you're getting more money. In reality, your spending controls have been forcibly and invisibly set to 0.

Yeah you get all your potential income put into your treasury when it cuts all spending, but tax income is based on population + eco bonuses and shouldnt change just cause spending is cut?

That is REALLY bizarre but REALLY helpful.

Glad I could be of service

Successfully updated karma reason!

At least they built the factory on the manufacturing bonus tile...

Successfully updated karma reason!

While we are doing this...

Drengin 1.10 AI. Seen through espionage.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drenginai17hq.jpg
Useless building a farm on a pq4.

PQ10 without any factories. Drengin conquered it from Drath 2227. The year is 8 Apr 2230.
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drenginai20jv.jpg

PQ11 Drengin planet without factories captured from Drath in 2227. Maybe the problem lies in the Drath AI.
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drenginai31wb.jpg

PQ15 Drengin planet without factories captured from Drath in 2227. This is seriously wrong.
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drenginai41yl.jpg

47mton food production seems a little overkill when the planet only has 17b pop. This planet has been Drengin the whole game.
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drenginai54ye.jpg

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hiya Frogboy, as long as he has your attention.

Some examples of the really stupid AI I have seen

Maybe it is best if the AI always build at least two factories, and limits the amount of food and watches the amount of morale resources built.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Indeed Kosty, its exactly whats going on in most(all?) players games at the moment I think

If corrected it would make the AI sooooo much more of a challange and more adaptive too don't ya think

Successfully updated karma reason!

Thanks for posting some screenies like this, guys!

I've seen many similar things - to be honest, most AI planets wouldn't even get a "C" for their buildings right now.

I can only guess how difficult it is to tell the AI to build the "right" improvements, but at the moment even my "standard build scheme planets (TM)" (3-4 factories, 1 farm, 1 morale boost, research and banks for the rest at PQ >10) seem to be more efficient than what the AI does. If there's anything we, the players, can do or test for you Brad, just let us know, I'm sure there's a number of people willing to help.

While we're at it, a related question: Do the "planetary defense" building really work? I'm asking because I didn't notice a difference (both in numbers and effect) when conquering AI planets even with three of them (should be +75%, right?). The AI likes to build them, and it would be a real PITA if they didn't work.

Also note an example of the planetary classification bug that seems to occur in all 1.11 games, for all races (except neutral afaik). Base class was 7 and even tho the planet has gotten new tiles the classification doesnt change. I would also hypothesize that you dont get the planetary bonuses either (population, +morale etc) since the class doesnt go up.

My guess is that the PQ improvement is lost on reload, because the class usually is increased when you upgrade a planet. Especially annoying on low class planets because the population cap goes down with the class.

Successfully updated karma reason!

My guess is that the PQ improvement is lost on reload,

yep, this is exactly what happens.

Especially annoying on low class planets because the population cap goes down with the class.

Extremely annoying!!!!!!!!! Going neutral is the only way to fix it it means that being good/evil is pointless as well. This bug is the single most annoying thing about Gal Civ 2 for me at the moment.

Lenius.

Successfully updated karma reason!

*bumps and hopes to get more from frogboy*

Successfully updated karma reason!

Bump from me too, this is too important to ignore!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Well technically he didnt ignore it, he did reply

Would just be nice with some more info or communication

Successfully updated karma reason!

I think if the AI was forced to use bonus tiles and build the correct building on them, we'd see a slightly more difficult opponent. The AI might think that it is not doing the right thing, because maybe the approval rating of the planet is lower than it should be or it is not generating enough influence, but at the same time so much more research and production would be going on that they could possibly get around that by using these new resources to capture planets or morale starbases.

It's also obvious that the player highly values diplomacy, culture, and morale techs (the yellow techs) and the AI does not. As a player, I use technology as a substitute for not building the correct structures on any given planet. Usually my worlds consist of:

1 Starport
2 Factories
Fill bonus tiles with the correct building
All Stock Markets
Replace Stock Market with a farm when the population caps

I can keep my approval up by lowering taxes, and I can buy anything I want, so production is not an issue. The computer takes the opposite approach of researching weapons tech and building approval and culture buildings. I think everyone knows who is more successful.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Has anybody from Stardock seen these recent comments? Help please.

We like you guys we really do, we're just trying to help......

Successfully updated karma reason!

A bump a day keeps the bugs away! ok ok I wont bump it again

Successfully updated karma reason!

While on the subject of weird improvement placements...it kills me to capture a lower PQ planet 4-6 and find one of the capitals built on it (tech, econ, man) yet nothing to support it. Then since I cant remove it I'm stuck with a capital on a small planet that I cant make good use of . Even worse is when these non replaceable buildings are built on a bonus tile. Please give us the option of getting rid of any building that the AI (or ourselves for that matter) places.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Please give us the option of getting rid of any building that the AI (or ourselves for that matter) places.

Agreed, that would be a welcome option.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The argument for not being able to demolish Capitals is that that forces you to think about where to place them, rather than to put them somewhere now, and then move them later because you found a planet with several bonus tiles. Do you go for the instant benifit or increased production now, or hold on in hope of finding a better planet?

What would be nice is that if you captured an AI planet with a capital on before building your own, you should still be able to build a capital of that type if you want.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The argument for not being able to demolish Capitals is that that forces you to think about where to place them

The AI is not very good at making these decisions, and I sometimes feel handicapped by those decisions when I conquer their planets. I mean, c'mon, what am I going to do with an economic capital on MARS??? It's like having an extra liver... in your foot.

What would be nice is that if you captured an AI planet with a capital on before building your own, you should still be able to build a capital of that type if you want.

I would rather have these buildings simply be destroyed when captured. That way you still get to/have to make the choice of where to put capitals, and you have to make the time commitment to build them.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I have no complaints about not being able to rebuild capitals IF I have built mine and not captured it . I'm rather fond of MarshallONeil's suggestion of having the "non-destroyable" buildings wiped from the colony when captured. Not to be able to destroy a starbase/capital that the brilliant AI placed on a 300% Research/Manufacturing tile that I could really make use of seems a bit strange when the races of the time are capable of creating a Black Hole Gun or other type of matter destroying tech.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The AI always builds a starport on ANY planet, independant of size, thats realy odd. WIthout the "extras" the AI civs get at higher difficulty levels, they would lose within few years. Its realy a miracle how the civs can be first in the top 10 economics with 90% planets like all the pics posted above.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I fully agree With the ability to demolish enemy Capitals but not your own. I think that would keep the intention of the Capital intact.

I also agree with teh AI. No matter what it won't be "perfect". I mean, all of us can argue till we are blue inteh face over what buildings we wold build and in what order ( and we are living breathing people, not computers). That said we could all come to a general template of what I good colony might be like (Factorys, Banks, Farms, etc). Perhaps there would be a way to convince teh AI that our template is a little better than its. Especialy since it seems very Culturally/happiness oriented which can kinda make sense (some argue that Cultural victories are kinda easy), but right now, the AI seems like its overly concerned with a Cultural victory to the point that its planets are very well optimized with respect to anything else.

Peace!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Maybe it is because I'm playing on challenging but I generally just find it odd in the way the AI places buildings. I do not have a problem with whatever it wants to build other than the capitals/starbases which I would like to decide if I want them on said planet. Once I take the planet I end up replacing most of the buildings with those that best fit with what ever type of victory I'm going for anyway. If by chance the AI happens to have a building that I would keep, I normally have to upgrade it so the time used to get it how I want it about the same.

Successfully updated karma reason!

We may see better AI planets when Stardock have added the option to allow more AI 'thinking' time. At present I'm sure that the AI is not constantly re-evaluating it's planets every turn, like I we do. This would be probably add a delay between turns, as it does some number-crunching.

Remember that the AI is NOT templated and does is calcs on 'the fly'.

Successfully updated karma reason!