Race

Join Date 03/2006

Dread Lord Campaign is Not Fun

Unless you are a master of the rush assault (which I am not) and have the missions (in which the DL are present) locked up in 10 turns or so, you're going to struggle - and most likely fail - to overcome them. The sad part about it is, you will spend many, many, many, many turns fighting off invasions and carefully balancing your budget only to look up and find that the DL's now have literally dozens of FLEETS patrolling the galaxy, stopping by any planets that have produced a ship to destroy it.

And that sinking feeling you get upon discovering that: 1) you're going to lose or 2) you're going to spend many hours holding them off until you can catch up, if it is truly possible to do so - that is supposed to your reward?

For a game that prides itself on its open-endedness, it seems wrong that there exists only one way to defeat the DL's. They are unassailable culturally, already have all the best technology and cannot be bargained with (although the Drengin didn't have any problems making Peace with them).

The Dread Lords are way too overpowered to be balanced and competitive. I got almost all the ship building tech researched in the final mission and was nowhere close to having the same tiny/small Scout-class ships with 100+ Attack, 11 moves per turn, and even (later on) 50-90 defense to the high level weapons you've been working your butt off to research.

And this all occured on the Simple to Normal game settings.

I am fairly new to this genre, Civ III being my first experience with it. My pity and my sympathy go to any who are experiencing 4x strategy gaming for the first time at the hands of the Dread Lords.

I have two suggestions to submit:

1) Allow the "good guys" some access to the Dread Lord's old foes - either in person as allies, or discovering tech. The best I got was a stupid side mission (when I failed the mission after Seige) that helped me discover . . . wait for it . . . Missile Weapon Theory! This was going to be the key to defeating the Dread Lords!? C'mon, guys. That was a joke, right?

2) Once the Dread Lords have appeared, all tech that has been researched should CARRY OVER to the next mission (provided you win). Otherwise, there is no way you can research all the way up the tech tree and be competitive against them (at least before the afore mentioned DL fleet infestation occurs).

I may be inexperienced, but I am not so unintelligent (power-gaming genre specialists: please keep the heckling to yourselves) as to realize that I am being herded into a certain style of "play." I would much rather have a close, hard-fought victory than an all-out rout of or loss to my foe(s). Unfortunately, those seem to be the only choices available against the Dread Lords.

I just wish I hadn't wasted so much time trying to have fun before I learned that sad lesson.

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Maybe you should do a complete redesign of your strategie ?
I played the first Dread Lord szenarios as well - and it was hard, I have to restart some multiple times as is see my strategie did not work, but it became easy after I found a working strategie. And I were very happy thereafter - a lot of fun!
There are multiple szenario solutions - two weks ago I read here a postiong of a guy who win by defending and let the allianz menbers fight the Dread Lords (must be a high difficulty level, at low levels the AI does nothing).

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Hmmm, I've never played the campaign and never plan to. Never did in GalCiv 1 either. Try some regular games, the campaign is only a tiny part of GalCiv 2.

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Huh! Dread Lords dont scare me, Ill smash um to bits.......what's a Dread lord?

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i played the non-campaign game first, and am working on the campaign now.

i thought i had the game pretty much in hand, but the rush-rush nature of the campaign has forced me to adapt and improve my early-game technique.

i think i'll be stronger for it, when i go back to non-campaign play.

i'm sure the campaign/DLs will have to be re-balanced when 1.2 comes out... due to "simultaneous" combat removing the first strike advantage... that'll remove one of the few advantages the player has in 1.1 campaign!

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The dreadlords r not all powerful, they have serious weaknesses, u just after figure them out (have been listed in loads of other threads, search dreadlords) then exploit them. Sit back and think hard! The rush them tactic is just 1 way there r several other ways. They then just become a minor annoyance. The dreadlords r an elder race, they r mean't to be scarey, all powerful. U have allies who r there to help u, Arceans, Altarians, Iconians and Torians. One thing to note is play it on a higher level and the scenario's r easier, this is because the dreadlords r powerful anyway so it does not effect them much but gives your allies a real boost.

I enjoyed the campaign when I met the dreadlords for the 1st time, I was help, help, how can I fight those? Then I got over it! Siege and Apocalypse r 2 very, very good and challenging scenario's. Playing Apocalypse is the biggest challenge I have faced In GC 2 so far.

The campaign does have faults, like the ending? Whats all that about? I take it the campaign continues and this is only part 1? Every end of scenario should have a nice grahpic storyline to immerse u into the story a bit more. Also some unique features, like perhaps Arnor technology would encourage more players to play it. Example have u found that Arnor mothership on scenario such and such, wow etc.....

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The dreads lord campaing is really boring...

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Yeah, it's the common thought that putting the Campaign on a higher difficulty is better, since your Allies will actually help....and to rush to dreadlords with Troops.....

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i aglee

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So, what I am hearing is that when I turn up the difficulty my Allies become smarter. Do the Dread Lords not become any harder? They don't adapt to the new level of difficulty?

Maybe I'm backwards here, but it seems that on an easier level, my Allies should be BETTER in order to help me more. Then, in higher difficulties, the task would rest more and more heavily on the player's shoulders - not vice versa.

Also, I think that the skirmish (which I like and have "mastered") is a lot of fun, but I was really hoping for more out of the narrative-driven campaign (which, BTW, basically instructs the player to rush the DL since they will not win a protracted war with them). Coming from such games as FarCry, Diablo II, Call of Duty, Warcraft III, and Half-Life - where storytelling goes a long way towards the overall experience - I guess was hoping for more.

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which, BTW, basically instructs the player to rush the DL since they will not win a protracted war with them

The scenario instructions r a load of misleading rubbish in my opinion, play it your way. U can win a protracted war with the dreadlords.

So, what I am hearing is that when I turn up the difficulty my Allies become smarter. Do the Dread Lords not become any harder? They don't adapt to the new level of difficulty?

I know its wierd, but its just the game design, at low levels your allies play like idiots, at high levels they get full access to all AI routines and can well win the war for you! For example in apocalypse the torians conquered a dreadlord planet and gained the invulnerability field tech, which I traded for. Was on the ropes at this point, so was a life saver. Also dominion did same, got gravition driver, which I traded for. Was then able to conquer my own dreadlord planet gained black hole gun(nice

). This secured the win for me, was a really, really hard fight! I had it on masochistic level. The dreadlords might be smarter (not sure), its hard to tell with them being so powerful. The dreadlords did succeed in conquering both the dominion and was it the drath up there, I forget now. They fought fierce battles with the torians and were conquering there worlds when I stepped in to try to turn the tide with my fleets. Up until then had just been trying to intercept there transports to slow them down, well hiding in the bottom right hand corner.

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Coming from such games as FarCry, Diablo II, Call of Duty, Warcraft III, and Half-Life - where storytelling goes a long way towards the overall experience - I guess was hoping for more.

Completely agree with u, stardock need to improve the storyline in any future campaigns, hopefully with nice movie scenes like in Diablo II (one of my favs).

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One of the easy ways to beat the DL is to just get really really fast ships and take out their troopships they nearly always leave them unescorted

. They hae some pretty big weaknesses like not putting ships into fleets so you can hit them off one by one. Also they also try and make their best ships with no industry so it takes ages. Once you figuare out how to exploit them it become easier hope that helps race

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Hit the DL's hard and fast, as soon as you can put together a fleet that'll do enough damage to kill their ships. Since they don't focus on defense until the midgame (maybe it was after a year, I don't know), you can put together 20 damage fleets, pop their wonder-fighters at the expense of 1-2 tiny ships and just plain outproduce the buggers. Once they're trying to produce their magical 2000 production small-hulled ships of doom with your 100 production cost expendable corvettes sitting above their planets, it's game over except for the invading.

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I think whats misleading on the difficulty level is that you are setting the difficulty of the AI and not the campaign itself. So yes, as far as the campaign is concerned it is backwards but for the rest of the game it is as clear as day.

Since the level affects all AI players then your allies will be better for it. The dreadlords are so tough I doubt you will notice the boost they might get.

I found not expanding too quickly helped me consolidate my position. I used the colony rush against the dreads at first and just lost my planets left right and center followed by my fleetstrying to get there and help.

But when it gets to Dread fleets just wandering around and twatting anything that is built it gets really pointless. They move too fast to get your ships into fleets intime. I usually find at this stage my fleets are no match anyway for the dread fleets.

Also I cant use the tech I win from invasions, perhaps someone can help me here. I got a dread weapon on the report of a successfull conquest but I cant trade it, see it or put it on ships (ie I dont have it available). I assume these are supposed to help tip the balance but seem to be missing. The AI players can use the ones they find but I cant trade for them because they cost about 30k + to trade.

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It is hard to beat the dread lords, but it can be done. you hve to change your strategy completely (In relation to the sandbox games.)

BTW the dread lord only get fleets if they capture a planet and get a logistics tech. I'm almost certain of this.

1. You need high population worlds
2. Soldiering techs need to be researched rapidly [ and you need to make sure your allies are similarly equipped, sell tech fast, give it away if you have to.]
3. Military starbases with plenty of tiny fighters around to maximise the bonuses. swarms of cheap fighters kill DLs easily as long as they have decent bonuses

Researching - I tend to go for interstellar republic, cos cash runs out fast. then i want aphrodisiac (Population), so straight for habitat improvement. Your allies are doing the standard buildup so swap / sell tech. Then go for soldiering techs.

At this point you should be seeing DLs. I only defend planets with scouts as no single ship can stand against them. they soon kill these and move off. After the first wave has moved off/ or even before it arrives start building swarms of tiny ships enough for a few decent sized fleets. And also a lot of constructors. The DLs tend to head straight for any / all starbases as a priority, Once you have researched up to starbase mobilisation. build that starbases with all your constructors. its going to cost around 2k but you've set an excellent honey trap for those DLs. and they'll be facing fleets with an attack value of 50+. The torians are really good with logistics, so you should have 20+ points which means 10 tiny ships per fleet.

Eventually you will become unassailable, and you can take the fight to them...

On masochistic the drengin and the Yor are vey powerfull, enough to give you serious grief and you'll have to face them too. you'll need proper ships to battle them with, just like sandbox mode.

Also to gain the most benefits from having allies, you need to play on at least challenging, or they will be useless DL fodder...

There is no rush invading and no cheese in my method and it is very satisying beating the DL while ignoring the standard advice. But this is how i do it..............

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BTW the dread lord only get fleets if they capture a planet and get a logistics tech

I agree, the dreadlords capture tech off u and your allies. They can form fleets.

1. You need high population worlds

10million dreadlords need 5 billion population to defend against (approx.). Also u need to keep approval at 100% because they can use the propagenda invasion option and have your discontented citizens join them. Interesting to note they then kill those turncoats as dreadlord worlds never go above 20m.

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Ok, I tried Achilles' Heel 3-4 times (on Painful) and can't seem to do anything.

For those that beat it, what tech do you pursue first?
How to you build your base?
Do you try to rush to colonize some of the worlds at start?
When you get militarisic?
How to you deal with transports and roaming ships?
Is there any full and good guide for this mission?

Also, since both Siege and Achilles' Heel are really not mandatory to win (there are alternate non-DL missins to help to recover), what missions follows after that?

I mean is there a mission when you really, really need to win against DL with pure force, and no retreat possible.

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Also, I think that DL campaign could be more difficult after 1.1 patch, since Industrial Sector is now 400, not 800, so I guess DL will be able to militarize faster.

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mean is there a mission when you really, really need to win against DL with pure force, and no retreat possible.

apocalypse and after there is no alternative missions. In fact I think only 3 missions (early ones have alternative missions). Apocalypse is really the only hard, really hard one however to win after those.

Also, I think that DL campaign could be more difficult after 1.1 patch, since Industrial Sector is now 400, not 800, so I guess DL will be able to militarize faster.

U may be well correct on this, I played through the campaign on 1.02.x.

For those that beat it, what tech do you pursue first?
How to you build your base?
Do you try to rush to colonize some of the worlds at start?
When you get militarisic?
How to you deal with transports and roaming ships?
Is there any full and good guide for this mission?

I do not rush, build a solid base.

I advanced normally but I tried to build a few quick military ships early to intercept any dreadlord transport, used 2 ship types, 1 with loads of sensors and a fast intercepter with 1 attack.

I ignored roaming ships until I had the fleets/military bases capable of dealing with them. Let the dreadlords have space superiority, whats there? A big load of nothing thats what, so long as he can not conquer your planets who cares?

Probably a guide type in dreadlords, campaign etc.......

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What is minimal military tech level you need before militarizing against DL?
What weapons, what hulls, what engine speed, what solidering?

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I agree, the dreadlords capture tech off u and your allies. They can form fleets.

Hmm, is this then how they get Defence techs? I thought the weakness of the Dreads is that they dont adapt, they are just hard and stay that way. In the game I just played I quit in frustration (was sssssoooooo ridiculous) because a Dread escort (yes a little 14hp one) turned up out of the blue with 28 Shield defence. Guess what weapon type I had? Uh-hu, lasers. In fact I was just about getting to a good place early on with my ship abilities and this thing turned up. My top-of-the-line ships did 6 damage. But not any more, it was 0 all the way.

Honestly it just felt pish. ALL my fleets died, I only had 4 fleets but they were holding the line, I was replacing losses and increasing them in number slowly. I had a plan and it was taking shape and then BLAMMO!!! no more f'n point playing. I had enjoyed toiling with the losses of fighting the Dreads; replacing fighters, retaking my worlds, loosing them again, loosing a fleet (or 2!) to some, er, "miscalculations". But to go from that to zero damage and no tech available to do damage... Are me and the allies to suddenly climb a new weapon tech when there are actually NONE others available?? Do I keep gettting more fleets killed until I do kill the escort and then what? Wait for the frigate class to arrive with 56 Shields?? Then I see more battles go 0, 0, 0, dead, 0, 0, dead, 0, dead = lost.

So in solidarity with Race, I would say the Campaign is "not fun" as well. At least not fun when the Dreads that cant adapt suddenly adapt.

/rant off

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I agree gmjapan.
DL should not adapt, that should be their weak point.

Otherwise campaign pretty much becomes randon.
In one game you win nicely, in another you lose badly in 3rd one...
That's not fun...

P.S.
Anyway, I'm toying with new strategy so I'm asking to see will it work.
-I'll have medium speed sensor ships with good sensor range.
-very fast 1 laser interceptor ships to take out undefended transports
-and very slow but hevily armed tiny ships, which I'll position in such way that they always attack first (sensor ships will help here)

Could this work?

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@gmjapan - Ive noticed the same thing, primarily the defence rating of the DLs is set to point defence, but they get the defence value on shields and armour. Its a bit of a bugger, but like i said earlier swarms of small fighters with a military starbase maxed out up to starbase projection will be the key to staying alive until you get the top tier weapons and ships.

The DL start of with top of the Line attack and defensive techs, total majesty, the best farm, but no logistics. they steal it when they invade, which is why its important to have high pop and excellent soldier techs + tir quan. don't let them invade. Again - don't let them invade. that way they won't 'adapt'.

@p22 I build scouts like crazy until i get plasma2 then its microfighters and consrtucors for the fighter swarms and military starbases. And don't forget to go for habitat improvement for aphrodisiac and high pop. As for the soldieing you need to get to space marines - for tir quan quickly. does that help?

@ meglobob - you've got to try the campaign in v1.1- It'll blow your mind. the DL are on fire! And so are the drengin and Yor.

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Frookie, except its not just me they are invading, my allies lose planets and retake planets like its going out of fashion. I also share all my tech but I cant get all the soldering techs before the Dreads invade. No chance. So they will get at least 2 planets off me (or the same one twice!).

I do agree with the honey-trap idea and I have tried mil starbases in the past (pre 1.1) but I find the 14 move escorts jump straight in past my slower ships before I can stop them. It doesnt matter what level your starbase is at, 227 missile attack = 1 dead starbase. Maybe if I was more organised I could use them properly but if my ships cant intercept its over for the starbase and then the ships are useless (more or less) on their own.

@p22 in my experience the Dreads make a bee-line for the sensor ships. This can be good or bad depending on how reliant you become on them. A super fast anti-troop ship is a good idea against invasion, maybe make it a cargo hull so you can fit even more engines on it. Try and get above 14 speed.

The tech rate on the levels seems to change as well. The one I just (quit) on started out as 7 turns to complete Zeno Research with two initial colonies - normally its 2 or 3 turns for that tech.

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Do you guys think that if you research the defenses before all the Dread Lords appear I mean I know it is very boring just sitting and pressing the turn button over and over again but maybe it the best way.

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