AI does not value +diplo techs highly enough

Dominae

Join Date 04/2003

AI does not value +diplo techs highly enough

I believe I have developed a cookie-cutter strategy for beating Masochistic difficulty - Standard and Large maps, default everything.

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Expand normally. When the colonization phase is over, begin boosting your population by keeping Approval at 100%. Set Research to 100% with spending at as close to 100% as your treasury permits.

Research the expansion techs first (Impulse Drive, Space Militarization, etc.) then the +% economic ones (Planetary Improvements, Xeno Economics, etc.) then Xeno Entertainment (to increase taxes) then finally begin on the dipomacy branch. Focus exclusively on all the +% Diplomacy techs, roughly in the following order:

Xeno Communication
Universal Translator
Diplomatic Relations
Trade
Advanced Diplomacy
Expert Diplomacy
Xeno Ethics
Interstellar Governments
Alliances
Interstellar Republic
Interstellar Democracy
Majesty 1
Majesty 2
Majesty 3
Star Democracy

Meanwhile, explore Anomalies with your Flagship as normal. On the higher difficulties it does not take long for the AIs to discover/contact you.

Here's the important part: whenever you meet a new civ, trade all non-Diplomacy techs you know for as much as they are willing to give you. Begin by prioritizing their techs, followed by their BCs, then Scout Ships, then military vessels, then Freighters, then Transports, then Trade Goods. That's roughly the order in which the AI is willing to parts with it's stuff (from least to most expensive). Do not under any circumstance trade the +% Diplomacy techs! Keeping checking in with the AIs every couple of turns to see if they've researched anything new, if so, trade everything around until there's is nothing left for them to sell. Repeat.

Economically, you do not need to do much other than max out your pop, and research with whatever income you have left. Consider buying researching buildings on your bonus research tiles, but no more than that is needed. Set up your capital with a few Factories in order to build Diplomatic Translators as soon as they become available. Although this Trade Good is obviously really good with this strat, I've found that it's not essential as you can just buy it later.

Eventually your colonies will max out in size and you can safely increase taxes. This produces a lot of income, so there's the temptation to being Social spending. I usually wait until after the first UN meeting to start building stuff, which is just around the Majesty's in the list above.

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Why this works: the AI does not tech trade quit as aggressively as you do, and because it does not prioritize Diplmacy techs, you're getting a better and better deal each time.

Eventually your buying power becomes so high that you can begin acquiring their ships. The AI's Scouts allow you to contact all the civs on the map very quickly. The AI will replace its Scouts, which is good for you since it gives you more time. Once you start buying their military ships, it's more or less game over: the AI tries its best to produce the best military possible, but it's all-too-willing to sell it, too. Because the AI loses a ship for every ship you buy, you should have the top Military in no time. Then you are safe to keep playing the tech broker (if one civ ever gets out of control, just build the Spin Control Center, no one bothers you after that). It's especially funny when you get to the point that you can buy their Troop Transports, as you are essentially buying their population.

I have won two games this way on Masochistic, one an Alliance victory in the second year, one a Military victory early in the fourth year. Both were very easy games on average starts. I'm confident this works on Obscene, not sure about Suicidal.

Returning to the topic of this post: the main reason why this works so well is that the AI completely neglects the Diplomacy branch of the tech tree. It have seen it go all the way to Industrial Sector and Quantum Torps (for example) before picking up Diplomatic Relations. It's a bit better about researching the government techs (which provide diplo bonuses), but not much.

Having all the diplomacy bonuses in the hands of the human player generates a snowball effect that I have yet to see the AI identify and counter; you can just buy anything that the AI cares about (except for alignment, which becomes irrelevant). I'm not sure this is the "best" way to win on Masochistic, but it's definitely cookie cutter (which is bad).

Anyone else have the same experience?

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It's easy not to be, because it doesn't seem to be game-breaking, but it's the big reason that tech trading has been such an issue, to the point that there's a No Tech Trade button in 1.1. If you fix this problem and force the human player to accept deals, you might start seeing what it's like to be the AI facing a human.

I'm not saying it's not game breaking, but rather as you pointed out with good AI, it can be worked around.

With regards to decisions about going to war, if the computer AI completely disregards diplomacy, historical friendship and whatnot and starts war (kind of like in Moo1,2 etc), it would be more challenging, but people would complain.

This one isn't really a question of good or bad (in terms of efficiency in winning the game) AI, but rather a question of how it should act. If it wants to win the game like a human, it will completely disregard diplomacy or historical friendship (but factor military strength and too lesser extent trading links) when making decisions to attack.

I like the idea of Good/evil/neutral affecting the efficiency of diplomacy techs, so that evil leaning races will find their diplomacy techs having less effect on all other races. In fact, declaring war for 'insufficient reason' would be classed as an evil act.

I would like the idea that even evil races can be honorable, but probably using the existing alignment is simpler.

1. Good civs get full diplomatic ability bonuses when trading with other Good civs.
Evil civs get full diplomatic ability bonuses when trading with other Evil civs.

2. Diplomatic ability bonuses count as negative when trading with civs of the opposite alignment.

3. Diplomatic ability is halved when a Neutral civ is involved.

I think this doesn't really address the problem of Human players taking the AI for a ride because their decisions are free, while those of the computer isn't.

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I think this doesn't really address the problem of Human players taking the AI for a ride because their decisions are free, while those of the computer isn't.

That solution, I believe, was more directed at the notion of balancing out the alignments to satisfy the restrictions on who can attack whom.

As far as taking the AI for a ride, what I was describing in may last post with the whole value vs. need thing was that the AI could be built up to the point where it can't be taken for a ride because it won't accept deals based purely on value comparisons. The AI, right now, will accept any deal offered as long it perceives the scales to be balanced. Real people don't do that, because they, generally, are OK with what they have, so they only spend money on things they need, unless they have disposable income/wealth, in which case they also spend money on things they want.

My point was that, in my opinion, the best solution to that side of the AI/Human disparity (which is the underlying cause of diplomacy being overpowered in human hands) is to boost the AI by giving it:

1) the capacity to evaluate what it wants and what it needs
2) the capacity to determine when it has enough disposable cash to purchase the things it "wants"
3) the ability to say "No" when the player offers something that it isn't interested in, even if the deal is "balanced" in terms of cash value

These are the things that real people consider when thinking about a deal, and I'd bet that Stardock, given the overall quality of the AI, would be more than capable of implementing these changes in a way that would fix the current imbalances with diplomacy.

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I was actually referring more to the problem of taking into account diplomacy when deciding to go to war. Human players don't, for good reason.

As I said before tech trading is not a big problem in principle.

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As I said before tech trading is not a big problem in principle.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that the game is rendered extremely easy by a combination of almost unrestricted trading and the effect diplomacy bonuses have upon trading, bonuses which the AI basically neglects. Whether or not it's a big problem in principle remains to be seen, but it's certainly a big problem in actuality. I would much appreciate if you offered a solution to this problem, and then convince them devs to implement it.

I have not found the diplomacy bonus to be an unbalancing factor in the AI deciding to go to war with me. I went the diplomacy route in a no tech trading game and the aggressive civs still declared war eventually. If tech trading is on, however, you just buy all their stuff. I suspect military might is a much bigger factor than relative diplomacy level in the AI declaring war, and it's easy to have a big military if you abuse trading.

Not to mention that the Spin Control Center is at the end of the Majesty branch (which the AI never gets to), a wonder that's basically an AI exploit in and of itself.

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Hmmm, I have seen the AI build Spin Control Centers before (rare but it has happened). I think that some races should focus more on diplomacy, listening to Alan Bradley make a complete fool of himself whenever I talk to him gets irritating after a while.

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The idea that tech trading OF TECHS THAT MAKE TRADING EASIER is bad is very sound. I like tech trading, and I never turn it off - but it's silly that the AI will let me trade for their high dip techs, thus allowing me to get better deals with them in the future. The direct synergy between trading and diplomacy techs/bonuses means that they are a special case, deserving special attention.

Frankly, I consider dip techs 'weapons', and the AI should too. It should only trade its diplomatic 'weapons' to people it trusts. Even then, I sort of wish you couldn't use the particular bonus from a tech on the people who developed it first... or a penalty... or something. Half baked idea warning.

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