Wheeloffire

Join Date 04/2006

Ugly war of attrition

the AI got smart

V1.1 beta 3.015...

Gigantic galaxy... 6 races... normal

Altarians put an influence base right in the middle of my empire. This is weird because it's how I defeated them last time. I decided not to be passive despite their 120 to 30 ship advantage. I had mass drivers, shields and chaff. I lost the first 5 battles but they were Pyrrhic victories for the AI. After upgrading my fighter design to include ECM along with better guns and shields, the AI couldn't touch me for the next 11 battles. I was destroying heavy frigates. The ship advantage dropped to 60-40. I fell ready to move from defensive to offensive.

When I arrived at the closest planet, I discovered that the AI got smart. It started using mass drivers and armor. I was torn apart. I didn't think it would do that so I'm very impressed. However...

This war didn't have to happen. They were my only trading partner but they stuck an influence base in the middle of a 4 planet group. When I did that low-life maneuver to win last time, the AI kept asking me to remove it in various ways. My only chance of responding to the same tactic was to launch fighters and trigger a war that I definitely wasn't ready for.

If the AI is mimicking tactics that were successful against it... I'm in trouble. Turnabout is fair play but high diplomacy is useless if I can't negotiate my way out of it before launching fighters.

So here's what I want to see...

Bring back the "buying bases" exploit except that it's not an exploit now. If any player puts bases in another player's sphere of influence, the AI must believe that the chances of war have just exploded through the roof. The AI should react angrily when it's done to it. Placing bases within X distance inside of influence territory is a cause to fight. I want it to think about what's at risk.

How does the AI assess when to do something like base placement _deep_ in opponent territory?

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When it wants to win a cultural victory. Just accept it, and counter it with your own SB. Better yet, rush up to cultural conquest, the natural boost to influence alone netted me 8 Arcean planets.

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Keeping my cool would have served me better, yes. I lost my armed influence base and an economy base because of the war but...

I learned to master the domestic policy screen which was still a bit of a mystery. Going to war actually lowers the learning curve in my opinion. One learns quickly about what technology is important and how to adapt during the conflict.

Even if I brought the Altarians down with the Mohammed Ali rope-a-dope strategy, the Torians were right behind them with half the galaxy and a dozen battle cruisers.

Still, diplomacy needs to improve. If somebody planted concert speakers playing hardcore metal in the middle of my neighborhood, I'm fairly certain at least a couple of people are unstable enough to kill that person. Police would come. Perhaps there should be a way to seize the base with a troop transport without triggering a war--just bilateral talks.

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You're right...I wish there were a better counter. I usually do one of 2 things...build a starbase next to it to cancel it out or buy it from them.

edit: I thought the exploit was only with resource starbases, not normal ones.?

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Fight cultural influence with cultural influence.

Keep your own people too happy to flip.

I have a nice, Huge galaxy with just the Arceans left, and I am trying to culture flip their entire empire by surrounding them with my own planets and influence stations (with a few stations deep in their territory as well), even though I could easily beat them militarily at this point.

I got them surrounded by rushing through and completely taking over two other, less powerful races, and every planet within 20p of one of their planets is infested with a heavy, weedlike growth of influence buildings

Mainly I am just exploring what happens at the upper end of the research tree, as I have only been playing for a week or so, the conquest part of the game is basically over for this map.

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Just accept it, and counter it with your own SB

I've done that. Then the Arceans contacted me about a sector report showing an influence starbase had just popped up...ok this time, but it better not happen again. Then all their allies started sending me the same message.

I agree, the player needs the same diplomatic tools available as the AI players. If they can "warn" us about something they don't like, we need to be able to do the same.

If any player puts bases in another player's sphere of influence, the AI must believe that the chances of war have just exploded through the roof.

This is soooo true.

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Remember that borders are only as far as planets. If it was outside the border, it would annoy the AI. So, it's not weak AI, just totally hypocritical

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Maybe they put it there to just extend their ship's range? Remember the AI doesn't cheat, so it'll need a way to get across the map.

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I too would like to see the ability to threaten erm I mean warn the AI about various things. I'd like to see a option like warn and the ability to select the object you are warning them about like SB, Ships, or Colonies.

Otherwise the AI isn't going to know what you are angry or threatening them about.

-J

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Maybe they put it there to just extend their ship's range? Remember the AI doesn't cheat, so it'll need a way to get across the map.

Getting across the map can be done with economy bases. I am cool with economy bases coming into the territory. Those are progressive bases. Military and influence are offensive bases. There doesn't seem to be a distinction with the AI. If the AI decides, "screw him. He's weak." then that's a perfectly valid reason except that the AI should consider the potential consequences.

Put an influence base of the inside of the sphere of influence border then the border will expand which keeps everything fair play. Which brings another issue...

These bases are unbelievably expensive and time consuming. When I'm on a cultural offensive, it would be nice to have movement like the Death Star. Make it slower than a Ranger if necessary but, seriously, allow base movement.

That way, you can actually negotiate with opponents on _leaving_ your star system.

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These bases are unbelievably expensive and time consuming

As long as he's not flipping your planets with it, wait until he's sunk a ton of money into it, then destroy it.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

Well, the response to the starbase is a relationship drop. That's something you do without the message...

THerefore, it's not so bad.

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but it's not their relatioship with you (if they build bases in your territory, they're not going to hate you more because of it... i hope). i do agree that there needs to be an option to threaten players as well as negotiate with them to encourage them to take certain actions, such as removing a specific star base. the AI can send me random unilateral messages (i also get those when i have a strong military build up near their space), and i react to them. why doesn't it work both ways. or better yet, it'd be nice to be able to set your mood of other players manually, and check off reasons for your mood (maybe not all the things like diplomacy and trading, but maybe more specific things affecting your mood, such as a current war they're fighting, their star bases or military presence).

i played one game where i narrowly avoided having a base of some kind built right next to earth. the torians were sending it over, but i had enough espoionage to see exactly where it was going. i moved my closest ship to that square, and when the flight path could no longer be completed the torians just sent the 'structor to a mining base on my outskirts. they never made another attempt to build that far in my territory, and part of that may have to do with the fact that i had researched several levels of the cultural conquest branch.

it seems like the AI jumps at cultural conquest until you research one or two levels of it yourself. it might be a little more intelligent if it "took into consideration" so to speak, how easy it is to research a couple levels of that tech for an economically healthy empire.

sometimes i wonder i star bases are treated the way they are at all. it seems to me they could or would support a minor, taxable population, not to mention being subject to cultural revolution. taxes aside (hey, maybe no taxes is a perk of living out there in space), a star base is in my mind a lot like a city state in and of itself. even if the people who work on these basses commute from planets, there's no way it's a daily thing. their "shifts" would be months or years, which brings us back to the point of star bases having small but potentially significant populations. instead of blowing them up, maybe one should have or at least have the option to invade them. it seems like the most favorable military tactic for a valuable, fully developed mining base would be disabling its weapons and crew and taking it over. i know it'd be a big change in terms of gameplay and likely programming, but it seems important to me that there are more options for dealing with unwanted starbases. as such, star bases could have a whole series of modules to simulate many of structures built on the planet. maybe. maybe just population and happiness. or maybe not.

on a random side note, why do rebelious planets always join another empire? it seems to me if the approval on a planet was low enough but no other cultural influence was overwhelming, they'd revolt into a minor civ.

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If your diplomacy is up to snuff, you could try this: Get a war started with the faction encroaching on you and another nearby power. Then park a ship right outside the influence base you want to get rid of, and hand it off to the puppet faction you got into the war. If it works, the AI will destroy the undefended starbase with the ship you gave away. I've had the AI do very weird things when I give it ships though, so i wouldn't count on it working every time.

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the AI always drops a influence base in the middle of my territory. even on the campaign missions its not unusual to find the AI has built up 2-4 influence bases just out side planetary sensor range or right on top the damm planet. really annoying and has lead to seveal wars. im not sure what triggers this behavior in the AI but i manage it nearly every game.

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Moz, I haven't tried this in GC2, but I've done it a few times in GC1. Create a solid box around the starbase with constructors (combat ships work if you've got enough of them), with two spaces inside the box. The starbase in question in one of the two spaces, your gift ship in the other. The AI usually wouldn't immediately attack, but almost always did within 5 turns or so, since the ship can't go anywhere else. In cases where the starbase was isolated, I'd build a starbase and give it to the AI at the same time as the gift ship.

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Moz--I didn't think of that. Sneaky, effective and eliminates the cost of buying wine & cheese for the diplomats.

Still, shouting back to the AI is necessary for these situations. I want to warn them, have the bases move and turn people against them.

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